MS Really that good.....?

no reply boba about spain 96 and michael taking a gamble by having a wet set up in the wet,another brick wall situation.

how many times has ms had team mates move over,not very many.
taking his team mates car,rubens qualified in the spare which ms has anyway so it was ms's car,rubens was given michaels car for the race which was the car that got pole so in effect rubens had the faster car.

no reply to my point about benetton scoring one race win in 96 with equal power to williams,the previous year michael scored 9 wins.


yes ms has used his teams mates telemetry and set up occaisionally but this is a rare you make it sound like the norm.

and do real race drivers like jv move over jerez 97 in a race rusult that was fixed with mclaren,dont give me his car was damaged he moved over on the last corner.


the hill/schumacher debate are you just saying that hill was very clumsy twice

rubens was given michaels car for the race which was the car that got pole so in effect rubens had the faster car

but michael obviously stole the car coz it was better oterwise he wouldn't have



:B )))))) :S
[www.livepencil.com]

Bleh

Yo Sup

"and before more people take the piss out of my writing LOST PROPHET you want to learn to spell.miricle you mean miracle."

Yeah Mark, but if you paid attention then you would notice that i have aplogised for my speling many many times in many different psots in this forum and the old forum.

"no reply to my point about benetton scoring one race win in 96 with equal power to williams,the previous year michael scored 9 wins."

em, did Benetton win in 96? I remember Berger blowing up in Hockenhiem wiht not long to go but i dont remember Benetton winning in 96. Correct me if im wrong there please. I watched that race in Germany in a bar and when Berger blew up everyone was shouting with disgust

"yes ms has used his teams mates telemetry and set up occaisionally but this is a rare you make it sound like the norm."

Recently it has been.

Imola, took RBs car cos it was faster
Spain - Digital claims he took the setup again but theres doubt
Austria - well he took it and still couldnt match Rubens

MS has alaways said he gets the team around him cos hes the fastest. The fastest driver should have priority he says. Well Rubens was fastest all weekend, why didnt he get priority? If Rubens is faster than MS for the rest of the season will Ferrari give Rubens priority next year? I dont think so.

If MS is soooo good and he is the god that some people (not all) try to make out on tis forum why does he need his team mates car or setups? Since the 2002 Ferrari was given to Rubens, hes been right up with or ahead of MS. The car seems to suit RB better than MS, but im sure Ferrari can alter something to make it suit MS better

"rubens was given michaels car for the race which was the car that got pole so in effect rubens had the faster car

but michael obviously stole the car coz it was better oterwise he wouldn't have"

ut why does MS need this if hes sooo god like in a car? Rubens works on the car for the whole weekend, then MS comes along and steals the last few days work? Why is that fair?

"and do real race drivers like jv move over jerez 97 in a race rusult that was fixed with mclaren,dont give me his car was damaged he moved over on the last corner."

hmmmm....interesting point there. But look at the race. Could JV have moved over if MS was stil in the race? Do real race drivers try to take out there opponents?

But you are right, it is very like the situation in Austria.




Racing Is Life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting
Jesus may be able to heal the sick and bring the dead back to life, but he can't do shît for low fps

ok i stand corrected on benetton having 0 wins in 96.but it surely is a point that no anti schumi is answering,9 wins for michael in benetton renault,4 for hill in williams renault in 1995,then as soon as michael leaves benetton who still have the same engine as williams and even the anti schumis state that it wasn't a bad car,how come when he leaves the next season they win no races, surely michael makes a massive difference,and putting all the focus on one driver as benetton did reaped rewards.



no ms fan is saying they agreed with sundays actions,the gap michael had to montoya didn't justify it,and we are not disagreing about rubens,he has driven very well this year no ms fan is saying otherwise.the car you refer to that ms stole was the spare car,ms has the spare car for himself so he can't steal his own car,even in warm up he'll use both and it's not unknown for him to switch to it for a race,


even though he used the spare in barcelona,because of problems with his race car,it still won the race,so it doesn't matter what car ms or rubens used,it would still of won the race.


and yes michael has copied rubens set up,so what he even used irvines the odd occasion,i don't have a problem with it or think he is any less a driver for doing it,austria seemed to suit rubens so michael copied his setup.



the reason the mclarens were used in jerez was because jacques was unsure of irvine,he couldn't predict what he would do,whether he would try and take him out,as we know michael was the one.
ron dennis and frank williams had an agreement they would keep irvine behind them,if you remember irvine chopped jacques in the pit lane,
the race was manipulated to the benefit of williams and mclaren.



i've heard on here when other drivers have let team mates through it was sportsmanship,but where do you draw the line,dc being asked to move over in jerez wasn't sportsmanship it was team orders,if the australia 98 was sportsmanship why was dc told to move over,and to show his frustration he done it on the main straight.



can you honestly say if you were ferrari bosses in sepang in 99 with irvine going for the championship, that you wouldn't of asked ms to move over,which he did twice for eddie,and the same at hockenheim asking ms replacement mika salo who was leading the race to move over,of course you would,people would expect you to,its still fixing a result,


just remember those 2 races where ms and mika salo have moved over for irvine,and you should see it's not just a schumacher thing and unfair to blame him,it's ferrari so there is no need to keep blaming this one on michael.



all replies welcome,and try and answer for the third time why benetton didn't win a single race without ms in a car that was the current constructers champions


hope it's readable and i apologise in advance for going on a bit

ron dennis and frank williams had an agreement they would keep irvine behind them


they did no such thing

mclaren assured williams that they would not interfere with jacques race against irvine, and the mclarens would not push jacques into making a mistake,

JV let the mclarens through later on in the race at the request of the williams team, probably as a favour for them not pushing him in the race, and the fact that JV's car was damaged from the earlier impact with MS






LS's Tip of the week
ESSENTIAL OILS aren't essential unless you're an engine, a gearbox or a twat

i seem to remember that berger and alesi both complained that the benetton was hard drive in 96.

benetton have said that they built the 95 car around MS driving style, and johnny herbert said that he could'nt extract the best performance out of his benneton because of the same thing.

the major car designers also left for ferrari in 96 along with MS, and there design for the 96 benneton would have been designed in 95,

so when you look at the 96 car was actually designed by the current ferarri designers its fair to say that is one of the main factors of the benneton not winning

it must be hard for any driver getting into a car that his been designed specifically for someone else and extracting the optimium performances against your own driving style

herbert said it was like driving a go-kart it was that pointy at the front.






LS's Tip of the week
ESSENTIAL OILS aren't essential unless you're an engine, a gearbox or a twat

"then as soon as michael leaves benetton who still have the same engine as williams and even the anti schumis state that it wasn't a bad car,how come when he leaves the next season they win no races"

When MS left benneton, he took with him a huge number of team members, including ross brawn. I effect, when he left, he gutted the benneton team of the talent they had...leaving them with a mediocre team.

Chris J



'I reserve the right to contradict myself' - Richey Edwards, 1994.

the williams was damaged,strange to let the mclarens through on the last lap,if williams and jacques were that worried he would of let them through laps earlier.again why was dc who was running second again asked to move over,because mclaren do have team orders.



you can't complain about ferrari and not mclaren and williams,jerez 97 final result was fixed,you say they didn't interfere with jacques race,why is that,they are supposed to be racing for mclaren and is doing favours in the race for williams and getting a win as payback far worse than what ferrari have done,it is a team sport what ferrari done is in the rules,i don't approve of it,but i consider these two teams conspiring for mika to win far worse,and as for ms at austria he didn't really win that race.

amazing ms goes and the benetton car that was as the anti schumis say second only to williams,suddenly crap,you are now quoting johhny herbert a driver who anti schumis have criticised on this forum as a team mate ms would easily beat,now his opinion means something.



i really don't know were you stand on this,one forum its a good car cause herbert managed to win in it trying to put michaels achievements down,the next it's undriveable to all bar schumacher.it's either one or the other,he managed 4th in the championship so he couldn't of found it that hard to drive.

but i'll give you the benefit of that doubt on that one

Oh, there's no doubt about this one, my friend. Wet-setup or not, his display of brilliance was really something to behold.

the fact is that the ferrari fans hide behind this myth that MS is the greatest

So you think 90% of Formula 1 fans also hide behind this "myth" that you've just made up?

You are incapable of realising that it is widely appreciated in the Formula One world that Michael Schumacher is the best F1 driver at the current time, and his been for the past 7 or so years.

you can argue til the cows come home about MS records, but when you look at the manner at which they have been acheived, albeit a subserviant team mate being forced to move over, MS takin his team mates car coz thats the only way he can be fastest, copying his setup and telemtry, this does'nt sound to me like a brilliant driver.

Of course it doesn't, because you're only taking into account about one percent of his whole F1 career.

Do you think the manner in which anybody else's records have been achieved have been any more impressive. Hakkinen one the vast majority of his GPs in 98 and 99 when he had a far far superior car, then all of a sudden when his car was not so good, the wins stopped. I'm not saying Hakkinen isn't a great driver, but I'm using him as an example.

Onto the issue of MS using Barrichello's car. Now how many times has he done that? Once? Twice? No more. Out of how many GPs? 160-odd? Can you justify using that example? And anyway, you seem to ignore the fact that when Schumacher did have the same setup as Barrichello, he was faster. Put your foot in it there.

when you look at the cold hearted facts, no other driver in the last 8 years has had the deck stacked in his favour so much as MS

What is it with you and these facts? It always crops up in your arguments, and it's clear you using the phrase without thinking about it.

Not long ago you were instructing all the MS fans, in a lordly manner, to take a look at the facts, and when I obliged you and did so, it made you look a bit silly because the very facts that you were referring to unsurprisingly contradicted the point you were trying to make.

I recall that there was no reply to that post. Your "facts" tend to mean nothing - you are in fact hiding from them by using the same weak argument over and over: it's all down to Ross Brawn, he's had the team built around him, he steals Barrichello's car because he's not good enough to use his own, he resorts to taking out his rivals, his tyres drive the car for him... etc, etc, heard it all before.




HISTORIC BTCC VIDEOS

-Alex- wrote:
> So you think 90% of Formula 1 fans also hide behind this
> "myth" that you've just made up?

So you think 90% of Formula 1 fans are behind MS?? 90 % of people I know are against him. And if you mean 90 % think he's the greatest... well, that's just a really good joke

Onto the issue of MS using Barrichello's car. Now how many times has he done that? Once? Twice? No more. Out of how many GPs? 160-odd? Can you justify using that example?


yeah, coz up until this year a team mate of MS is beginning to turn the heat up on him, its fruitless task for poor rubens though, he won't be allowed to be competitive,

ellis raised a good point , if RB had been this competitive at the opening race, and won it by the margin he "won" at austria, and then did the same at sepang, would ferrari then take the decision that they should put their efforts behind him instead of MS?

had MS had a decent team at ferrari from the start of his career, and out qualifyied on a few occasions, i think that we would have seen him take the other car off his team mate.

MS has copied previous team mates setups and telemerty, like johnny herbert when he was at benneton, but like herbert said at the time, he took my setup and data, but when i asked to his data, i was refused.

now why would a driver of such superhuman talent

(a) take his teammates set up & data

(b) refuse the team mate's request to see his data



what could possibly be the answer hmm?






LS's Tip of the week
ESSENTIAL OILS aren't essential unless you're an engine, a gearbox or a twat

it's all down to Ross Brawn, he's had the team built around him, he steals Barrichello's car because he's not good enough to use his own, he resorts to taking out his rivals, his tyres drive the car for him... etc, etc, heard it all before

yes you have, because thats the main points of MS success,

i seem to remember MS saying this year that the bridgestones are giving ferrari a big advantage , so if your hero is saying this why doubt me?

i also think that you undersestimate ross brawn, with out a shadow of a doubt if you put him in another team for 6 months, he'd have won them 2 races on stradegy alone






LS's Tip of the week
ESSENTIAL OILS aren't essential unless you're an engine, a gearbox or a twat

"the fact is that the ferrari fans hide behind this myth that MS is the greatest

So you think 90% of Formula 1 fans also hide behind this "myth" that you've just made up?"

Of course he's the best driver. I'm an F1 fan, hate ferrari, hate MS, but realise MS is the best. In fact JV is my favourite, but I'm not pretending he's the best.

Who is the greatest at the moment then?

"the williams was damaged,strange to let the mclarens through on the last lap"

Not really. With them behind, he knows that there's no danger other than his car breaking. If he let them thru early, then he could be overtaken by whoever was behind him! The McLarens were a buffer zone.

Chris J



'I reserve the right to contradict myself' - Richey Edwards, 1994.

So you think 90% of Formula 1 fans are behind MS?? 90 % of people I know are against him.

Well in that case you probably know very few people, and I'm not surprised given the way you express yourself most of the time.

And you see, this "myth" that you refer to is ironically exactly what you yourself are hiding behind. Really, you know Schumacher is the best. You just don't want to show it.

I very much respect people like Chris J and Zcott, who while obviously totally entitled to their own opinion regarding whether they like Schumacher or not, still appreciate the fact that he is the best driver. These guys know the score.

The fact that you don't like him is blinding most of you lot from the truth - that is, he is the greatest driver of this era.

And if you mean 90 % think he's the greatest... well, that's just a really good joke

I'm not laughing. You're merely showing how much you don't know about the sport and the general opinion of the Formula One world. You seem to think that just because you don't think Schumacher is the best, then naturally everyone else must be of the same opinion. That must be true musn't it, because I'm Bruno?

I'd guarantee that if you would stop someone in the F1 paddock and ask them who is the best driver, 9 times out of 10 they would say Michael Schumacher. But obviously, that's just pure ignorance on their part. And on the part of such people as Murray Walker, Sir Stirling Moss, Jackie Stewart, Martin Brundle, Prof. Watkins.... get the picture?

Even Eddie Irvine, for heaven's sake, is often singing Schumacher's praises. Now let's not pretend that they're best mates - would Irvine really still say that Schumacher is head and shoulders above the rest now that he is not associated with Ferrari or with Michael? And he was his teammate! He's unlikely to say anything like that unless he means it. Doesn't that tell you something? I'm guessing not.




HISTORIC BTCC VIDEOS

yo Sup

"You seem to think that just because you don't think Schumacher is the best, then naturally everyone else must be of the same opinion. That must be true musn't it, because I'm Bruno?"


"Really, you know Schumacher is the best. You just don't want to show it."

So you are saying that to Bruno but your doing exactly the same as him? Isnt that hypocryticle? (sp)

You are TELLING us that we KNOW MS is the best driver. Well you can not tell us that we know he is. in your OPINION he is, in MANY other peoples he is a liar and a cheat. I have a friend who used to be a ig MS fan, now he hates him as much as i do.

"Even Eddie Irvine, for heaven's sake, is often singing Schumacher's praises."

Are we talking about the same Eddie who thinks hes the second best driver in F1??

Well that must mean that Pedro de la Rosa is the best in F1!!!!!!!

Well he must be since he seems to beat Eddie every race weekend.

So thats the argument over, MS is NOT the best, de la Rosa is!

Mark, when you split your stuff up its MUCH easier to read. Thank You




Racing Is Life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting
Jesus may be able to heal the sick and bring the dead back to life, but he can't do shît for low fps

alesi and berger struggeled with the benetton in 96 because it was designed for ms,im sorry but that is a poor excuse,benetton knew at the end of 94 season that ms would only be staying one more season which was 95,heiner his manager drew up a new one year contract for 95 for michael, so why on earth would benetton design a car for 96 around ms knowing he wouldn't be their driver.


michael scored 9 wins in 95,in 96 alesi and berger 0, surely that has something to do with the driver.


again jerez 97 was an agreement between mclaren and williams.i have the full race on video plus the season review and it seems so obvious the finish was fixed.even coulthards manager struggled to explain it,dont just critisise ferrari for austria,its not unusual, i dont agree with switching drivers but just dont blame ferrari,again no explanation why dc was told to move over in jerez,and you say no team orders at mclaren.




and if herberts set up was that good how often did he outqualify ms

well congratulations mark,

it would appear that you know about it than berger and alesi, that is what they said, but hey what do they know? they only drove the cars.



and if herberts set up was that good how often did he outqualify ms

herbert was'nt as fast a driver as MS when he was at benneton, he was almost at the end of his f1 carreer, but thats not to say that herbert was good technically enough to know how to set up a car






LS's Tip of the week
ESSENTIAL OILS aren't essential unless you're an engine, a gearbox or a twat

"michael scored 9 wins in 95,in 96 alesi and berger 0, surely that has something to do with the driver."

Why are you labouring over this point? The fact is most of bennetton (key staff) were grabbed by ferrari when ms left; THAT's why they did badly in 96.

Also, no one ( I wouldnt think) could argue that either Alesi or Berger are as good as ms...both these points I think prove why bennetton were bad in 96. Not just drivers in this case.

Chris J



'I reserve the right to contradict myself' - Richey Edwards, 1994.

Yo Sup

Just cos Alesi and Berger arent as good as MS, it doesnt automatcily mean that MS is the best. Shall i bother reminding you thats theres been lots of other drivers?

Anyway, i thought we settled this, according to Irvine, de la Rosa is the best, stop arguing!!!




Racing Is Life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting
Jesus may be able to heal the sick and bring the dead back to life, but he can't do shît for low fps