MS Really that good.....?

well we all know that he is good but is he that good?

all the races he's won have been in an outstanding car. You can tell this because all his teamates have been almost or as good as him. He needs to do something like Hill did. Hill instead of hiding behind williams he went to arrows (Arrows= about a 6th 7th 8th ranking car) and in the hungarian GP he almost won it!!!!!

I will know schumacher is THAT good when he stops using good cars to protect him.



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He is driving the best car cos he is the best driver!

Remember when the ferrari was not the best car back in 2000, he still won it then! back then maclaren still had the edge! that proof enough for you?



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how many years have you been watching f1.its only last year he had the best car,so he'd won 3 championshipswith inferior cars before that plus hes the only driver who made something of 97,98, seasons,some drivers like mika can only win in the best car,other like ms can win without it,i think you want to get your grand prix videos out and you'll see how good he is and go back a bit further than last year.
and the point about hill,he almost won in hungary how many drivers can say they almost won in .........................
you need to remember michael beat damon when damon had the better car in 94 and 95 and be honest hill only won in 96 cause he had the best car,and he nearly blew it.

Mark,

He clearly talks about 1997 as well. Zoran isnt just using last year as an example, but 97 as well.

As for nearly blowing it in 1996, well, he had an inredibly fast rookie for a team mate. I'd say you'd be pushed to name many drivers who made more of an impact than JV in his first year.


I don't think that MS has only been good in good cars...97 + 96 highlight his ability well. Those were inferior cars to the williams, yet he did well.
But I agree it would be great to see how well MS does in a lesser car...maybe a jordan again. He has the best car and ( in my view ) is easily the best driver, I wonder how good he'd be in the jordan.

Actually I want to see Coulthard at a lesser team. He's had his chance for 7 years to win the WDC at a top team but has FAILED to impress, and is now being outqualified on a regular basis by his team mate!

Chris J

how many years have you been watching f1.its only last year he had the best car

Exactly, have you only been watching F1 for the past two years? Evidently. I thought Hill fans were biased but this just takes the piss. Are you suggesting Hill is a truly great driver? Did it ever occur to you that Hill was always in the fastest car when he won races - with the exception of Hungary 97 and of course Spa 98 - and I really mean exception.

(Arrows= about a 6th 7th 8th ranking car)

Yes and it showed! Hill was impressive that weekend but it really was a one-off, and that circuit suited the Arrows well.

I will know schumacher is THAT good when he stops using good cars to protect him.

LoL! How even people who dislike Schumacher can say this is beyond comprehension.

But I agree it would be great to see how well MS does in a lesser car...maybe a jordan again

I know this isn't exactly what you're referring to but look at 1991. Superb debut for Jordan and then a stunning first couple of seasons with Benetton. There hasn't been any driver since that has been so impressive in their opening two seasons. Schumacher achieved seventeen podiums in his first three years, and the on the occasions that his car didn't let him down on his debut season, he finished in the points. Pretty impressive I'd say, for a relatively new driver in a not so good car.

Then of course there are those 4 years at Ferrari when he had an inferior car (particularly '96) yet still managed to be a serious threat to his chief rival who invariably had a far superior car.

And the 3 miracle victories in 1996. That's probably your best reference if you're looking for examples of Schumacher excelling in an inferior car.




HISTORIC BTCC VIDEOS

"that circuit suited the Arrows well"

True. The higher powered cars had little advantage here. It was tragic to see DH's car breakng so late in the race!

"Did it ever occur to you that Hill was always in the fastest car when he won races"

Sadly, it seems a fast car is what is most important nowadays. Damon was not really a truly great driver, good, certainly a good WDC, but he won't go down in history as one of the best.

Alex, I was thinking more of present day jordan. Strange that he used to drive for them! (if just for one race).

Chris J

all world champion drivers have had fast cars, and to suggest otherwise is ridiculous






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I didn't say hill was better and i didn't say schuie was bad

schumacher teammates have nearly always been nearly as good as him but they don't win coz the team tells them not to (Sound's familier) :P



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Yo Sup

"And the 3 miracle victories in 1996."

em, well Spain was a win cos everyone else couldnt stay on the track.

you could also say 2 miricle victories for Coulthard in 97?

you could also say 2 miricle victories for Herbert in 95?

Does that mean since DC and Herbert won in inferior cars that they are jsut as good as MS?

Schumacher has never had a BAD car since hes been near the top in F1. The Benetton in 94 was second to the Williams, and again in 95. The 96 Ferrari was Second to the Williams and maybe thired to the Benetton, but no lower than that. the 97 Ferrari was second to the williams, 98 second to the mclaren. 99, second to the mclaren, 2000, second to the McLaren, 01, it was the best car. 2002, well its miles ahead of the rest.

How anyone can say that MS has a bad car is beyond me cos all of his cars haave been one of the top 3 cars in that season.




Racing Is Life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting
Jesus may be able to heal the sick and bring the dead back to life, but he can't do shît for low fps

yeah ellis, but the MS fans will turn around with the old favourite, " IT WAS ONLY THAT GOOD COZ SCHUEY MADE IT THAT GOOD






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Come on LS, its not like the anti schumists ever bring much new either!

But its fun to debate pro ms vs anti ms every now and then.

Chris J



'I reserve the right to contradict myself' - Richey Edwards, 1994.

em, well Spain was a win cos everyone else couldnt stay on the track.

em, exactly, and he could stay on the track, because of his pure brilliance in the wet.

Come on LS, its not like the anti schumists ever bring much new either!

If only they'd realise




HISTORIC BTCC VIDEOS

you should change the debate to 'is montoya really that good' all we heard before australia was what montoya was going to do to ms,well we're still waiting.what's up hasn't lived up to all the hype has he so you've had to moan about the goings on at ferrari.
and before more people take the piss out of my writing LOST PROPHET you want to learn to spell.miricle you mean miracle.

well 2 miracle wins for herbert in 95,strange one both of those races hill took schumacher out,i'm sure if it was the other way around you would say it was deliberate,anyway herberts win in silverstone michael was out,damon was out,dc had a late stop go and herbert won from alesi, so the race came to him,


his second win at monza,as i said before damon took out michael,dc retired so did berger and alesi,so again luck for johnny as the top cars retired.


2 miracle wins for coulthard,well jacques would of won in australia 97 if irvine hadn't tipped him out,and the fact that the mclaren was quicker than ferrari shows that the ferrari was still a very average car,and dc won in italy in the pits.


if the benetton was that good why then in 96 with berger and alesi and berger the reigning world champions and having equal power to williams with the renault engine,did they score only one win,with michael in 95 he won 9 races,it shows to me it's not the car it's who drives it,and this is also proved by frentzen going to williams in 97 having the best car and being awful.

"all world champion drivers have had fast cars, and to suggest otherwise is ridiculous"

That is another reason Montoya is off the pace. The williams is around 0.75 secs slower per lap than the ferrari...how COULD he concistantly beat RB, let alone MS?
That said, MS is an exceptionally talented driver, more so than JPM, taking nothing away from jpm of course. I think that with some luck (always useful) and a better car, JPM might be challenging MS more. By luck I of course mean the ferrari breaking down...unlikely.

aw, crap. where am I going with this?!

lost my train of thought

Chris J



'I reserve the right to contradict myself' - Richey Edwards, 1994.

em, exactly, and he could stay on the track, because of his pure brilliance in the wet.


Alex you failed to point out that MS took a gamble & had his car setup for a wet race and subsequently won the race because the other top teams did'nt

but i'll give you the benefit of that doubt on that one






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both of those races hill took schumacher out,i'm sure if it was the other way around you would say it was deliberate


hill was trailing MS at those stages of the championship, what would he have to gain by that?

we've seen that these are the measures that MS has to resort to, so why do you choose to think that other drivers would?






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he would gain by ms not extending his lead,obvious

he took a gamble did he by having his car set up for the wet,did you WATCH this race. it was monsoon conditions,everyone had their car setup for the wet,
can you honestly say other teams had a dry setup watching that race,i can't believe you made such a statement

he would gain by ms not extending his lead,obvious


WTF?? so you think that by being behind MS in the championship, the best way to get an advantage is to both be out of the race?

hill would still be behind because neither would have finished the race, wheres the logic in that?

MS did it twice because he had the advantage of having more points, thats why he did what he did,

if both he and his rivals went off he would win coz he had more points






LS's Tip of the week
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further more hill was regarded by almost everyone in F1 as a real gentleman in F1, so why would he do this?

did he do this in 96 when he was behind MS during a race that MS won? no, so i'm afraid you've come up against a brick wall with this arguement






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you should change the debate to 'is montoya really that good' all we heard before australia was what montoya was going to do to ms,well we're still waiting.what's up hasn't lived up to all the hype has he so you've had to moan about the goings on at ferrari


well seeing as that ferrari have produced a good car this year, combined with all the input from bridgestone i would expect any driver with a subserviant team mate to do well.

allied with the fact that michelin ( by there own admission that they are being out classed by their competitors) are,nt supplying the goods.


surely you must realise ( or maybe you chose not too) that with ferrari having the input with bridgestone as to what to include with the compounds etc they will have an advantage over the all the other bridgestone runners as well

then compound that with the fact that bridgestone are out perorming
michelin,

you don't need to be a genius to see that the best michelin package [williams] are'nt up to speed .


so you can hardly blame montoya when he's making the best out of whats available

give him the car and you'll see what they can do





the thing with modern F1 is theres too many varibles, pitstop stradegys that come down to the speed of the pitcrew, not nesesarily the speed pf the driver ( how many times we seen a driver come in and get out in front coz of a split second)

the team being able to predict the optimum time to come in { ross brawn generally being regarded as the
best, hence him being lured away from benetton}


when you look at the cold hearted facts, no other driver in the last 8 years has had the deck stacked in his favour so much as MS


you can argue til the cows come home about MS records, but when you look at the manner at which they have been acheived, albeit a subserviant team mate being forced to move over, MS takin his team mates car coz thats the only way he can be fastest, copying his setup and telemtry, this does'nt sound to me like a brilliant driver.


williams and mclaren have always maintained that their drivers are allowed to race against each other whether the world title is at stake ( albeit coulthard letting hakkinen through, which was his decision)

and we have seen some titanic exicting battles that have made F1 what it is today, senna/ prost mansell piquet

but ferarri take the biscuit where they have to shackle a competitive teammate in order to let another driver win constantly.

If MS is that good then let him race like all the greats that he has been mentioned with, not make a mockery of F1.

the fact is that the ferrari fans hide behind this myth that MS is the greatest, when in actual fact no other driver has enjoyed the status of being out right number one at the cost of the sport they're particapting in


even prost had to race to senna! and look at that season, 15 wins out of a possible 16, this is what f1 is about, 2 drivers trying to out perform one another

this year, ferarri are enjoying the same benefits ( down to the facts that they have the largest budget) and what do we see? shades of a brilliant 1988? no we see a team so desperate to win that they rob the spectators of the very essence of the sport that they are tuning in to.


it pales into significance when compared to true racers like williams , who have the enviable record of most race wins per race starts.

and who can say that williams are'nt true racers?






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