Where did it go wrong for Massa?

Interesting point about Singapore.

I've been watching the skyf1 reviews. The 2008 review was obviously done before all of the cheating was known, so watching Singapore was particularly interesting. I urge you all to watch the review of the race if possible and look at the way Piquet looks at Flav when Alonso crosses the line. His face says a thousand words. And some of the team members when pictured throughout the race did not look normal. The whole thing on reflection did look a bit odd. Of course it's very easy to say that now, maybe I am looking for things that are in fact normal but I am altering my perception of them?

Either way, the first thing that happens as Alonso crossed the line was Piquet looking at Flavio. It was not a look of joy for Alonso, it was not even a look of disappointment that he crashed, it was, to me a look of know he had done something wrong. Surely throughout the race he had hoped Alonso did not win, that way there was no pressure on Piquet in terms of fixing the result? Or at least not as much.

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

I think that there were certainly some suspicions in F1 circles after that race, based on what some journalists said after it was revealed. Obviously it's not the sort of thing that could've been published though for risk of defamation.

EDIT: Just watched Singapore on the 2008 DVD. That look from Piquet is certainly quite illuminating, I hadn't noticed that before.

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X (@ed24f1)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/15/2012 04:51AM by SchueyFan.

i think we are seeing in modern f1, that setup could well be the devil to a drivers form and put you in a hole for a long time. fisichella couldnt drive a ferrari at all, massa fell into a heap - but looks like there is a light at the end of the tunnel, schumacher couldnt do anything in a mercedes for a season and a half, and now Button has hit the hole, and could take a long time to recover also. strange thing is they are all great drivers, but when they hit a form slump we all bash them. i think a lot of it is the sensitivity of car setup, and if you are half a second behind your teammate, you end up being so much further down the grid.

Massa has never been the same driver after the Hungary 2009, period. you can see it everywhere, he is missing all the aggressivines and confidence he had. You can see he is driving much worse than he did in the past by just looking...2009 he had much worse car than he has had last three season and still he is having worse results. Also new current tyres don't fit for him that well and Alonso has a clear number 1 status in team. Now it seems there is a turn to better and Massa has found a setups he can do ok with, still not at his best but hopefully he will get there!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2012 07:31AM by vesuvius.

kubica2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> fisichella couldnt
> drive a ferrari at all

That wasn't because of a bad setup. Fisichella couldn't drive the Ferrari fast because the steering wheel and the attached software and menus were exceedingly clunky and complicated. There simply wasn't enough time to get familiar with how to work the car, through the steering wheel options. He was pretty much constantly driving with sub-optimal settings, or losing focus trying to change those settings. This was a remnant from Kimi, who really didn't give a @#$%& about developing the car. All he wanted to do was race it and thus it was up to Massa to deliver the feedback needed to develop this part of the car, a job he wasn't really up for. When Alonso switch to Ferrari this was one of the first things to be overhauled and simplified.

---

It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

vesuvius Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Massa has never been the same driver after the
> Hungary 2009, period. you can see it everywhere,
> he is missing all the aggressivines and confidence
> he had. You can see he is driving much worse than
> he did in the past by just looking...2009 he had
> much worse car than he has had last three season
> and still he is having worse results. Also new
> current tyres don't fit for him that well and
> Alonso has a clear number 1 status in team. Now it
> seems there is a turn to better and Massa has
> found a setups he can do ok with, still not at his
> best but hopefully he will get there!


I completely agree.

It's such a shame though. What he had done up to that point was massive and I liked him very much. He was kind of a crash guy when he came into F1, but he had the courage to keep his head down and set out for learning everything possible from Schumacher during their year together.

...And boy, he succeed. His whole approach in 2008 and in the first half of 2009 was as professional as Alonso's is now. What I liked in him the most was that he kind of had to work harder to achieve what he achieved in 2008-2009, because - IMO - he is not that naturally talented as the Vettels, Hamiltons and Alonsos. It was hard work and he did it.

The 2008 WDC eluded him by almost 100% team failures. Think of Hungary and Singapore. -20 points. At the same time, he delivered under immense pressure like I rarely see it. (I watch F1 since 1996.) Think of his unbelieavebe start and race in Hungary in 2008 or the impeccable victory in Brazil. Or his constant 3rd-5th finishes in the first half of 2009 with a below par car, from which he most professionally extracted 110%, like Alonso does now.

...What happened post-Hungary 2009 was good and bad luck at the same time. Had the spring flied 5cm lower, Massa would have probably died in one of the freakest accident ever. But still, the accident killed of that little bit in him, which separates the good drivers from the truly great ones.

I still like him for his approach and courage, both on track and for coming back to deliver after all that happened. But I think he just cannot rediscover that little bit in him. And though it is by no means easy, it is very very sad.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2012 11:17AM by Atticus..

Atticus. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But still, the
> accident killed of that little bit in him, which
> separates the good drivers from the truly great
> ones.

No it didn't. What has affected him has been the change of circumstances in the team since 2009, particularly having Alonso as a teammate. It's his confidence which has suffered since his accident, not his driving ability. If there's been one incident which has hurt him, it was Germany 2010.

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I think the only part of Hungary 2009 which hurt Massa mentally was the extended break from driving. That, coinciding with Alonso's arrival, was only going to go against him.

EC83 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Atticus. Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > But still, the
> > accident killed of that little bit in him,
> which
> > separates the good drivers from the truly great
> > ones.
>
> No it didn't. What has affected him has been the
> change of circumstances in the team since 2009,
> particularly having Alonso as a teammate. It's his
> confidence which has suffered since his accident,
> not his driving ability. If there's been one
> incident which has hurt him, it was Germany 2010.


Could be. But then again, it happened precisely because Alonso has been better up to that point. And has been out of this world since then after this support-boost. If there is one driver, who could deliver these things, it is Alonso.

Alonso tend to crush teammates anyway, barring Hamilton.

I know Felipe...we are not friends, but our families are kinda close and I speak a lot with his brother, Eduardo. He doesn't talk much about why Felipe has experienced so much problems after his comeback, but I have, from our talks, gathered some interesting insight into Felipe's 'issues':
1. Tires: Felipe is a late braker. This means he brakes late, turns late into the apex and exit the corner as fast as possible. In the bridgestone days, he was the fastest driver at corner exit in F1. Problem is, the Pirellis don't alow for late braking/late turn in. They just don't have enough grip and Felipe has had a hard time adjusting to that.
2. Vision: This is not a widely know fact, but Felipe's peripheral vision has been affected by his crash. It's a small loss and barely noticable, even when he's racing - Nelson Piquet won the 1987 world title with a similar lesion, after crashing at tamburello in the beggining of the year.
However, this year's car used to vibrate too much and that would affect Felipe's ability to find the correct braking points/apexes. Since Ferrari solved the vibration issue, his performance improved immensely.
3. Car concept: Felipe's performance was much closer to Fernando's in 2010 because the F10 was a 'new' car for both of them, and it had a more generic track behavior. But the 2011 and 2012 cars were made to match Fernando's driving style and that has also hurt Felipe's performance.

Well, that's what I know. I think Felipe is a very good driver and I really hope he can reclaim his place as one of F1's top drivers...

Atticus. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> EC83 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Atticus. Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > But still, the
> > > accident killed of that little bit in him,
> > which
> > > separates the good drivers from the truly
> great
> > > ones.
> >
> > No it didn't. What has affected him has been
> the
> > change of circumstances in the team since 2009,
> > particularly having Alonso as a teammate. It's
> his
> > confidence which has suffered since his
> accident,
> > not his driving ability. If there's been one
> > incident which has hurt him, it was Germany
> 2010.
>
>
> Could be. But then again, it happened precisely
> because Alonso has been better up to that point.
> And has been out of this world since then after
> this support-boost. If there is one driver, who
> could deliver these things, it is Alonso.
>
> Alonso tend to crush teammates anyway, barring
> Hamilton.

no, it's not only Alonso. it's clear that Felipe is missing that something in his driving, he is not even close to the pace he had in 2006-2009, his results in a better car last three years have been worse then 2009 when he had the worst Ferrari car he has had. Alonso also didn't crush Trulli, they were quite equal

@Jucksman

Thanks for the inside information, those are actually excatly what I thougt would be Felipe's problems!

we will let his results do the speaking, and in the last few races there has been a steady improvement, with some bad luck thrown in. massas form after the accident wasnt as bad as it has been recently, so i dont think the accident changed his performance that much, as it would have been instantly bad. i would not be surprised to see his improvement in form continue, this is usually what happens in f1, when you are in a hole it is hard to get out of, but when in form it increases the confidence, and results tend to come. if they dont come soon then maybe the form will not get better - in which case id rather see him retire as a respected driver that came from being considered mid-pack to beating Schumacher in ferrari, to beating raikonnen and losing a championship he deserved to win against a highly inform Hamilton, to overcoming a dreadful. anyway, like i mentioned earlier, i think for modern f1 driver, when things arent going right, it can stay bad for a long time - as the lap times are so close, and i think button could well be only at the start of a form slump that will have people bashing him on forums very soon also (they already are in some).

kubica2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> we will let his results do the speaking, and in
> the last few races there has been a steady
> improvement, with some bad luck thrown in. massas
> form after the accident wasnt as bad as it has
> been recently, so i dont think the accident
> changed his performance that much, as it would
> have been instantly bad. i would not be surprised
> to see his improvement in form continue, this is
> usually what happens in f1, when you are in a hole
> it is hard to get out of, but when in form it
> increases the confidence, and results tend to
> come. if they dont come soon then maybe the form
> will not get better - in which case id rather see
> him retire as a respected driver that came from
> being considered mid-pack to beating Schumacher in
> ferrari, to beating raikonnen and losing a
> championship he deserved to win against a highly
> inform Hamilton, to overcoming a dreadful. anyway,
> like i mentioned earlier, i think for modern f1
> driver, when things arent going right, it can stay
> bad for a long time - as the lap times are so
> close, and i think button could well be only at
> the start of a form slump that will have people
> bashing him on forums very soon also (they already
> are in some).

They are over at F1Rejects, he's getting quite a bit of stick.

It's a funny one though, because he did very well indeed last year. I just don't think the car really suits him, and he's apparently not got used to the higher nose, which raises the CofG.

Massa's picking up some ok results now, and seeing as Webber has signed on for another year at RB they may as well keep him for 2013. They can then get Perez for 2014 maybe.

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GPGSL: S6 - TafuroGP Tester (14th) /// S7 - ART Tester (6th) /// S8 - Demon Driver (13th) /// S9 - Demon/Snake Driver (13th) /// S10 - Snake Driver (???) ///]
"My ambition is handicapped by laziness" - Charles Bukowski