MotoGP 2008 Champion

Daniel Knott Wrote:
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> hayden and stoner are both hideously overated -
> though hayden more so.

Daniel Knott Wrote:
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> Hopefully toseland will do well to, he's good
> enough to at least.

Right, so Hayden, who has won the most difficult championship on 2 wheels against probably the best rider in the sport's history is over-rated.

You don't win titles with luck - Stoner may have been up against an uncompetitive Yamaha, but he still needed to get the results, and he beat Rossi at Rossi's own game in Barcelona, the only time they really went head-to-head over a full race distance. Hayden was great in 2006 - he lucked into it in the last round, but then he was taken out in the previous one by his team-mate. They're not the best riders the world will ever see, but they're not over-rated. They're against a true sporting legend who's still got plenty of life left in him, and they've both beaten him.

Toseland has won 2 titles on road-bikes with slicks in an amateur championship, and comes into MotoGP with the burden of a history of riders who have struggled to make any impact and you feel he may go well against these guys? I doubt he'll be an embarrassment, but he's never going to win the title - I doubt he'll ever win a race.

Oi, don't you go taking things out of context here. Of course toseland won't win a race, he's on the shitty 3rd string yamaha. It's all relative to what machine you are on.

When hayden won, the only reason he won was because capirossi was injured for most the season, rossi's bike kept having problems for most of it or he was taken out. Hayden won 2 races all season, and those were on his favourite tracks. Apart from that, he barely even made the podium or even top 5, he just finished basically every race.

Stoner was on the best bike by far last season, sure he is quite good but nothing compared to what he's made out to be. The bike was geared up completely around him and it was the best package in the paddock. How you expect anyone else to be able to challenge that - paticularly when the competition is on michelins i do no know.

H E L L O

Casey Stoner is not over-rated! Yes, he had the best bike, but even so! Have you ever seen Casey's first race in 125cc? He was a wild car and he drove pretty well. Alberto Puig was very impressed with him and helped him a lot! He even compared him to Rossi! Casey is a very good rider! He is champion material!

Daniel Knott Wrote:
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> Oi, don't you go taking things out of context
> here. Of course toseland won't win a race, he's on
> the shitty 3rd string yamaha. It's all relative to
> what machine you are on.
>
> When hayden won, the only reason he won was
> because capirossi was injured for most the season,
> rossi's bike kept having problems for most of it
> or he was taken out. Hayden won 2 races all
> season, and those were on his favourite tracks.
> Apart from that, he barely even made the podium or
> even top 5, he just finished basically every
> race.
>
> Stoner was on the best bike by far last season,
> sure he is quite good but nothing compared to what
> he's made out to be. The bike was geared up
> completely around him and it was the best package
> in the paddock. How you expect anyone else to be
> able to challenge that - paticularly when the
> competition is on michelins i do no know.

You can say what you want, but "hideously over-rated" is about as stupid a statement as I've seen on these forums, and we have brnco, Senna and Gui here.

I'm not going to argue that they're over-rated as that's largely dependant on who you're listening to - but "hideously over-rated"?

I stand by my comments. The 1 time Stoner and Rossi went head-to-head on level equipment, over a race distance, both pushing to the absolute max, Stoner beat him. Though I suppose Rossi is only an adequate rider?

Hayden doesn't have bundles of natural talent, but he's a workaholic - he just won't go away. He'll keep digging until he's done the job. Throughout 2006 he showed that, and I've not seen many non-fanboys who have argued that Hayden didn't deserve to win that title. In 2007 he couldn't adapt at all, but he still kept on coming at them, trying to regroup and never giving in, even when laps behind.

They may be over-rated if all you listen to is fanboys, but most of us are capable of forming our own opinions, and what I saw in 2006 and 2007 was pretty much as good as what Rossi showed in previous years. Nowhere near as much flare, but to be a good rider, you have to have strengths in all sorts of different places, and the 3 of them couldn't be more different.

gav Wrote:
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> You can say what you want, but "hideously
> over-rated" is about as stupid a statement as I've
> seen on these forums, and we have brnco, Senna and
> Gui here.
>
> I'm not going to argue that they're over-rated as
> that's largely dependant on who you're listening
> to - but "hideously over-rated"?

Well I have just obviously heard fanboys then, because i heard people claiming stoner the new messiah. To be honest, 'hideously overrated' was more because people were raving about them and i was fed up with it.

In 2006, capirossi or rossi should have won it but due to injury, mechanical failures or being taken out in some early races, they didn't finish enough to manage it.

In 2007 possibly i'd say pedrosa and possibly rossi were the best other two. Capirossi seemed to show he was much faster than stoner on the day towards the end of the season - but then why was he so @#$%& for the rest of the season? (i don't really have much info on this but he was very pissed off with the team - whether the bike wasn't built around him and the team only favoured stoner i don't know - but this seems very suprising and unlikely, given how well capirossi had done at the start the previous year).
I'm not saying that stoner didn't deserve it - he did well, but the bike was FAR BEYOND any of the competition, as were the tyres. Honda came closer to matching them at the end somehow on michelins mind you - i guess they really sorted out their bike.

>
> I stand by my comments. The 1 time Stoner and
> Rossi went head-to-head on level equipment, over a
> race distance, both pushing to the absolute max,
> Stoner beat him. Though I suppose Rossi is only an
> adequate rider?

When have stoner and rossi been on level equipment against each other?

> Hayden doesn't have bundles of natural talent, but
> he's a workaholic - he just won't go away. He'll
> keep digging until he's done the job. Throughout
> 2006 he showed that, and I've not seen many
> non-fanboys who have argued that Hayden didn't
> deserve to win that title. In 2007 he couldn't
> adapt at all, but he still kept on coming at them,
> trying to regroup and never giving in, even when
> laps behind.

That's what i mean - hayden just finishes all the races, rather that trying to win or be near the front. While that could be argued as a good quality, it seems to take less skill and although it is necessary to do it sometimes, hayden does this all the time, EXCEPT on his favourite tracks.

H E L L O

I just think Capirossi got left behind. There were hardly a queue of top teams after his services. He was limited to the 3rd best bikes to pick from. It's plain to see it didn't suit him, but why should it? If someone comes along and is faster, why tailor the bike for the weaker of the riders? Did Yamaha develop the bike for Edwards?

Rossi barely had the equipment to answer Stoner, but that doesn't mean Stone wasn't a match for him. I can't see it lasting year on year, but you can't say Stoner wasn't the best rider in 2007 - you just can't. He rode absolutely flawlessly and looked like he was capable of winning every race. Yes, him on the 'cati with Bridgestones was the best combo, but he still have to get the job done, and he did it in style in my opinion. Pedrosa didn't do much for me - I just think he's been a big let down since he came into MotoGP - he should be so much faster for such a light guy.

Daniel Knott Wrote:
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> When have stoner and rossi been on level equipment
> against each other?

You didn't see Barcelona?

Daniel Knott Wrote:
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> That's what i mean - hayden just finishes all the
> races, rather that trying to win or be near the
> front. While that could be argued as a good
> quality, it seems to take less skill and although
> it is necessary to do it sometimes, hayden does
> this all the time, EXCEPT on his favourite tracks.

So? So long as he gets the job done, he gets the job done? Prost was hardly the most flamboyant driver, but did that make him less of a one than Senna? He just kept on getting results relentlessly. It gets him less fans, but that's about it. It's just another way to approach motor-racing.

I agree with you apart from the barcelona thing.

Just because they were actually battling in that race doesn't mean they had level equipment. Rossi was having to ride the pants off the thing just to keep up, and as such killed his tyres.
Rossi was having to brake so late on the straight just to keep ahead of stoner. In fact in all the corners he has to push so hard to keep up. The ducati could so easily get back past if it was overtaken, it had so much more power and the tyres were much better and laster much better. It really says something about the performance difference when rossi is forced to kill his tyres - he is usually kind to them, keeping them for ages, which is why he always starts so slowly. Throughout the season he always had to kill his tyres though just to keep up.

If you think the two riders had level equipment then that just baffles me...

H E L L O

I thought the opposite to be honest. When Rossi went by Stoner I though he was just going to pull away. Stoner's engine was stronger, but Rossi had the edge in the corners I thought. From the early laps I just thought it was a brilliant scrap between 2 drivers equal on the day on equal machinery.

You're starting to come across as a bit of a Rossi man?

TBH, I didn't like Rossi or Stoner last year, and routed for Pedrosa! I was happy for Stoner to win the championship in such convincing style, but that was down to a tyre rule that hurt Michelin and helped Bridgestone. If the tyre war levels out this season, it should be a good one, otherwise Dorma have to find some way of stopping Ducati being so dominant. I expect Lorenzo to be fighting for wins and cause some upsets. Toseland will be lucky to make the top 10 on that Yamaha... I expect him to get beaten by Edwards more often than not! (Hey, it's a repeat of the old Superbike days! ) Tech3 are a good team with potential to win races when the front runners have off days, but were let down by awful Dunlops last year and Guintoli not keeping it on the road at Le Mans!

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Everyone knows that million-to-one chances happen 9 times out of 10; indeed, it's a common requirement in fairy tales. If the human didn't have to overcome huge odds, what would be the point? Terry Pratchett - The Science Of Discworld

GPGSL S5 Race driver for IED.

I'm surprised to see that Pedrosa is not mentioned...

He is not very good in "close" races, but he improved quite a lot during this year and ended the championship quite well. We'll see what happens next year, but I think Honda-Repsol struggled because of the tires. If Michelin can match Bridgestone, next year Pedrosa will be a title contender.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/2008 09:02AM by Ali.

I hope Pedrosa wins, and I think that what I saw of MotoGP 2007 showed Stoner was an incredible rider. It's all very well having good equipment, its knowing what to do with it.

Lorenzo on pole, didn't see that one comming ^^

JT second. That's awesome.

Yamaha one-two-three and Rossi not one of them... didn't see that coming either

3 Brits in the top 5 in 125cc... haha, over the mooon! :D

Just watched the preview show on bbc2. Looks like the beeb have found their own Hamilton to gush over now, it was sickening.

Good luck to JT tonight though, its gonna be mega!

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TBF, Toseland is twice WSB champion (no mean feat in such a competitive series), and former BSB winner, so deserves much more praise than Hamilton does. 2nd on the grid for his first premier class race isn't to be sniffed at. Lorenzo on pole is unbelievable though! I knew he was fast from the 250cc days, but lap record pace under lights I wasn't expecting.

Toseland for the win!

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Everyone knows that million-to-one chances happen 9 times out of 10; indeed, it's a common requirement in fairy tales. If the human didn't have to overcome huge odds, what would be the point? Terry Pratchett - The Science Of Discworld

GPGSL S5 Race driver for IED.

danny87 Wrote:
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> Toseland

Somehow I don't feel stupid.

Good luck to him.

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"When you begin in this sport you are given a chequebook. Every time you have a big one you must write a check to the angels. The trick is to finish your career before you empty the chequebook".

Oh God. They've gone all ITV on us.

Great race and what a ride by Toseland on the super slow Yamaha, tat new engine cant come soon enough!

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Great win for Stoner. But Rossi had some kind of weird problem from the looks of things. First he's right up there and then the next minute he's down to 5th at the end. Maybe it was just the tires. Night racing sure looks nice, thought it would look different and dark for the tv cams but looks like a normal footy game. Wonder how it will work in F1

Monza972 Wrote:
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> Great win for Stoner. But Rossi had some kind of
> weird problem from the looks of things. First he's
> right up there and then the next minute he's down
> to 5th at the end. Maybe it was just the tires.
> Night racing sure looks nice, thought it would
> look different and dark for the tv cams but looks
> like a normal footy game. Wonder how it will work
> in F1

It's called bridgestone tyres on a bike designed for michelins :p Mind you, he was still disappointing, although there is no real "frame of reference" to judge him against. Also it's a night race and really cold track temps and things so the tyres will be working differently for everyone.

Toseland did surprisingly well considering he had the poo engine - i thought he'd drop back a lot more than he did.

Thankfully I have eurosport with good commentary, so don't have to watch it on the bbc. Unfortunately though, they keep having advert breaks Seems a lot more than last year too.

I thought the race director was awful, kept showing the wrong thing.

Dovizioso did strangely well, though it's hard to comment about hondas as something is definately wrong there.

Looks like it's just the same as last year though, a vastly superior ducati. Look how they can just turn on the power when they wanted to. It really does seem that it's very much designed around stoner though, and he must have such a strange riding style, cos melandri is really struggling, as was capirossi last year. Something is strange within that team. I guess it's cos melandri is finding it hard to corner as stoner is used to dirt bikes and maybe that is more of a style appropriate to get it to corner. It really is brutal on the straight though, and this looks unfortunately like it will be the same as last year - ducati being far and away better, some 10mph faster than everyone else again. We will see...

H E L L O