The BNP

I'm so interested in the solutions of this kind of generalising people. Everything is bad, according to them. But none of them offers a solution. What would be a better system to use then to replace democracy?

The reason nobody offers solutions is they are too busy sitting on there fat arses watching I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out Of Here and reading the News Of The World to give 2 sh*ts. The people who are bitching and moaning about how @#$%& up this country is are getting ignored.

Democracy works, but since I currently have the choice of fat half blind egotistical tool who thinks he saved the world, and some f**king spastic that broadcasts videos of himself online to be cool and hip, what's the f**king point? No matter who I choice I have a moron who deserves a Darwin award in charge. And to prove my point, the only reason Boris Johnson is mayor of London is because he was hilarious on Have I Got News For You and is damn good at putting on the "I'm a charming idiot" act. Suppose I could be one of the 4 people nationwide who votes for the Lib Dems, but they can put forward whatever policies they want, they won't get elected. They could promise to give everyone a f**king unicorn, it won't matter.

As for changing things, the few of us who do care, do sign petitions, do write letters, continue to be ignored and have to put up with the Big Brother society being forced down our throats because the rest of the country is too lazy to get off the couch because another edition of Dancing On Ice, The Stars is coming on, and this week some actor from Coronation Street in 1993 is on it, and we just can't miss that.

It doesn't matter who you elect. They don't care about you, and they don't care about me.

Sorry if that was a bit of an OT rant. Probably won't read this thread much anymore, so flame away :P

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2009 09:59AM by DaveEllis.

The main problem with UK democracy is the winner-takes-it-all system*. It increases power and we all know that power corrupts. In Holland you have to form a coalition with other parties, which forces you to create compromises and support. You don't need to do that in UK-ish systems, because there is a monopoly of two parties. Smaller parties don't get a chance. Whether that's due to the Britons alleged inability to care about politics or that fact that those parties don't get many airtime, I don't know. But the domination of only two parties is really bad IMO, in combination with the winner-takes-it-all system. Once you are in power, you can sit on your ass and do what you want, because you don't need to have support from other parties (like in Holland). Especially not when you have a majority in both chambers.

*you do have that system, don't you? Otherwise I now look like a fool

Indeed they do Nick; like yours, our system here is also proportional representation. It's a good idea in a country where there are one or two strong parties.

The problem I see with politicians here is that they are primarily out to serve the people in their constituency. And they do that pretty well here, politicians will listen if there's a run-down community centre, or a road surface in a particular area is bad. They will sort it, because they will always be chasing votes. What the hell is wrong with that you say? Well it means that politicians are far too focused on small issues in local areas then coming up with fresh ideas for running the whole country. So you get a situation where a small village in the middle of nowhere has a big wide road with dazzling street lights leading into it, yet you have a country that is in s**t, effectively. To solve it, there needs to be a far more defined line between local government and national government.

Besides that, democracy is "rule of the people", but how is that supposed to work when 9,000 people happily vote for a man purely because he has a funny moustache?

my main issue is we have a ruler - the queen, who effectively sits on her backside all day doing nowt (except waving in a naff rotaty hand way). in my book, she (or he when she finally snuffs it and we get a king) should lead the country, not the muppet show (aka house of commons). I mean we have all these MPs, but WHAT do they do all day. The places i've lived over the past few years i don't even know who our MP is, let alone his (or her) policies. All i know is i'm getting screwed over for 20% of my wages for govt services i don't use. OK i get student loans, but i have to pay those back with interest, so they don't really count. So where does my 200 quid go? Council tax pays for emergency services and refuse collection, road tax pays for, err, roads (along with the fuel tax) so what does income tax pay for? I'm not registered with a doctor or dentist, haven't been near a hospital since leaving home...

System from Holland sounds interesting...

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Income tax is used to fill gaps. Do you really think road tax is enough to build and maintain roads? You pay for police, fire departments, schools (which you do use). Do I need to go on? People like you are generally the people I discribed earlier. Everything's wrong, but a solution is too difficult to come up with for them. They are only thinking in popularized ways. 'I'm not using this, so why should I pay?' That's exactly the kind of sentences extreme parties like the BNP uses: popularized/populist sentences. If they keep doing that, they will have votes.

Take the Dutch Geert Wilders for example. You may have heard from him. He's the one from the anti-islam film. He is as anti-immigrant as you can get them. He only throws in one-liners and such. The things people want to hear. His party is currently the biggest in the polls. Because a) he says what people want to hear and b) because those people are actually stupid enough to buy that crap. A lot of them haven't even any idea what his other policies (like economy) are. That's because Wilders never mentions them, because you can't win votes with those.

The kind of federal system the UK has (at least that's the impression I'm getting) disadvantages the small groups and their political parties. The elected people don't represent the population at all. What the UK has is the dictatorship of the majority, not democracy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2009 07:32PM by Nickv.

Nickv Wrote:
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> Income tax is used to fill gaps. Do you really
> think road tax is enough to build and maintain
> roads? You pay for police, fire departments,
> schools (which you do use). Do I need to go on?
> People like you are generally the people I
> discribed earlier. Everything's wrong, but a
> solution is too difficult to come up with for
> them.
>
> The kind of federal system the UK has (at least
> that's the impression I'm getting) disadvantages
> the small groups and their political parties. The
> elected people don't represent the population at
> all. What the UK has is the dictatorship of the
> majority, not democracy.

Road tax + the tax on fuel + MOTs + toll booths + whatever tax the government slaps to us next pays for the roads. The amount the government leeches from the drivers of this country is astonishing, and doesn't seem any signs of abating any time soon.




By the way, Income Tax, at least according to "The Pub Landlord (aka Al Murray)" was used to pay for a war against the French. So to those who don't like, how's about using some of that money to pay for ANOTHER war against them?



About 3 minutes in.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2009 07:42PM by turkey_machine.

Best way to describe the Queen was Frankie Boyle. Regarding the topic of the Queen being on holiday he said - "How does the Queen know when she's on holiday, she doesn't f**king do anything!

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Thanks a lot England, thanks a lot

Covfan Wrote:
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> Thanks a lot England, thanks a lot


So........

Did you vote?

The way i see it. No one voted today apart from BNP supporters. Deserved if thats the case.

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I did vote, did you?

From a business point of view, you have to credit the BNP for their foresight, even if it's a bad thing for the country.

Over the past 8 years there has been a steady increase in the number of ignorant, racist and faux-patriotic teenagers who have reached voting age. The BNP saw a gap in the market and catered for it.

One very important point for you all to consider: Democracy is at the base of power. Don't blame the BNP for having radical policies. Because the only way they'd ever be aired is if people vote for them. And people HAVE voted for them. That's where the blame lies.

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Covfan Wrote:
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> I did vote, did you?


Nope, who am i meant to vote for? Every party is a disgrace in this country.

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Wow so you just assumingly had a go at him for something that he did actually do, crowing that it serves him right because he didn't do it and now you have the audacity to come out and say that you didn't do the very thing you were putting him down for "apparently" not doing in a "well it's your fault" manner.

I personally didn't as I assumed that no one of decentness would be standing in our area however no later I find out that you get to vote for all parties unlike unfair normal elections, so therefore I maybe would have. However I still know it wouldn't have made any difference as what I would have voted for it seems were not going to get it - but it would have been the thought that counted.

H E L L O

Don't ever not vote because "it won't matter". Thousands will think the same and what could have been a 1 to 2% margin for some party to get on the map and increase its appeal over the years, won't happen, and any change will take longer.


Brazil has a system where you have all parties appear for free on tv time for one hour, time allocated according to the parties with the most power/representation, so at least everyone gets a shot for a message, however short it may be (some cases, 17s). We have a lot of different parties in the senate, congress, blablabla and the main problem is everyone is looking after themselves. Like all parties at all countries, they (politicians) are there to 1st work towards their party's needs and wants, and 2nd to the people. The problem in Brazil is that the "1st" is quite vast and the "2nd" is more like a 4th or 5th, with a lot of corruption in between. How would you like to vote for your own salary increase? They do that every year and any low form politician can make about US$120,000 a year. They also get a lot of free airline tickets, tax exclusions, a lot of pampering money and anything you can think of.

In the majority of places in the world you have to compromise and do a lot of dirty deals in the background so you can grow within the party ranks to be able to run for office.

Voted Green in the EUs. Kinda feel dirty after it. In the end he hadn't a hope of getting in, he just finished ahead of a load of independents.

It's a common problem here too, parties concerned more about themselves than the country, and yet often it damages the parties more than helps them. Like if the Greens pulled out of the coalition with the main party in government here, they'd be doing themselves and the rest of the country a massive favour, and their support would certainly shoot back to where it was before the last election. As it is, it certainly isn't going to get any better for them, and the damage yet to be done could destroy the party. But you feel they are loathe to say goodbye to being in Government, as if being in power, however shite the situation is, it's better for themselves being on the outside.

But it isn't. Not even close.

Nick Griffin got egged today, apparently he complained what if someone had thrown a brick

If only....

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that whole egging thing, im a little confused.

Its just intolerance against intolerance is it not? Not the way these people need to be fought.

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Yeah my friend mentioned this to me when I told him.

Ok some people may enjoy to see this sort of thing, me personally I dislike the BNP, so yeah I thought it was funny to see. However what we really need to do is debate against them, and prove them wrong in that way, as you say this sort of stuff is just intolerance against intolerance, which gets us nowhere in the long run. If people can highlight the issues of the BNPs policy, that is the only way to show the true meaning of what they are about.

The most worrying thing for me is friends or people I know that I've talked with and they support the BNP. Earlier one of my friends said that they thought the BNP were no so bad. Nick Griffin has openly said that he thinks that the gas chambers at Auschwitz were constructed after the liberation of the camp. I've visited the camp with my College and seriously, you can't make stuff like that up as a cover up.

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before the elections, i heard people at my work canteen discussing it and saying the BNP were a credible option because of their "British jobs for British people" campaign, and that none of the other parties were offering that.

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It's interesting to see that the British situation is similar to ours in Hungary. See the two leading parties have been equal since the change of the regime in '89, and these two passed the seats around each other.
Now it's different, the socialist party is screwed, the MP had to resign and nationalism is getting more and more widespread and popular. Their party reached 3rd place in the EP elections, in certain cities they gained as much as the socialist party, which gained 60% of the votes last time (now fell back to 10 or so).
They're openly nationalists, openly against the whole EU system so now they managed to get in, what will they do? Disrupt it from the inside? The worse thing is, that if the socialist get themselves together for the goverment elections (which they won't win by any circumstances) but the other popular righ-wing party (which says it doesn't support the extremists) may have to make a coalition with those bloody idiots anyway, as the 2nd or 3rd biggest party. So yeah, that's f***ed.