Dear Forum

Last time I really joined the discussion of this issue, I said I felt caught between a rock and a hard place.

[www.grandprix3.com]

I still do.

On pure principle I oppose censorship. On the other hand I was among the first to recognize Bruno's and Stephan's right to do whatever they want with their property. And I still do. In fact, I don't see anyone contesting that issue here. Vader freely acknowledged it in the first post. So I really wish that we could move on from that, on discuss the more central issues at hand.

As I said in the post I previously refered to:

"People like to be able to do whatever they want, when ever they want, where ever they want to. Having had the benefit of widespread autonomy in the past, of course users will contest limitations on what can be posted. Giving up autonomy, and putting ones freedom at someone elses discrection, is a hard thing to do. And this is exactly what the new way will force us to do. So, thinking about the other topic, had you really expected otherwise?"

That was why I tried to get some sort of public mandate described, so that people could say:

"Okay, we understand that doing so and so is screwing up. We accept that you can do this to us, if we screw up".

I think it is pretty obvious by now that I failed in that attempt. So I am not gonna get deeply involved in this, or stop frequenting the forum. But I am gonna change my sig to show my support. And I am even more convinced than before, that there has to be some sort of discussion about this.

Perhaps it would be a good idea if the parties involved put their heads together and had some talks via MSN or email?



Post Edited (02-17-03 08:14)

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

First of all, i wud like to thank ppl for having the guts to speak out agaisnt the majority. Most of the major mebers have voted agaisnt mods, and it takes alot of guts to speak out agaisnt the whole group so major respect to those speaking with me.

Ellis, they are just jealous because you are the moderator(or something like that)and not they.

LOL! Nah, they are not. They just strongly belive they should not have moderators, and nothing more

-only full corect English else will be deleted
-not sending too short posts
-not sending unimportant posts

If english is readable, then it can stay, thats kool!
Short posts are fine, as long as they are relevent. Its the whole spamming thing that shouldnt be allowed. Yes, we have to work out exactly what is spam, but recently HakkinenF1 has posted two or three threads in the GP4 forum about F1. This is spam in relevence to the GP4 forum, so they were moved, and asked not to be repated. The worst bit was that these threwads already exsisted in the F1 forum. We had two threads about exactly the same thing, but one was spam in the wrong forum. THIS is the kind of irrelevent rubbish that is costing Bruno money

And heres a point - why shold we posting OT stuff in any other forum other than the OT forum?

WE requested an OT forum and Bruno was kind enough to give us one without asking questions. And then we go and psot spam i the other forums? Theres something seriosly wrong there!

do what you wish, but boycotting the forum is possibly the worst thing that anyone could do to this forum, and its ashame because it would easily survive with no problems if you didnt boycott and we had mods. You haevtn spoken out agaisnt mods on any other forum, and this is a forum like all others.

Its a community, and communities have rules. Rules are sometimes borken, by accident or on purpose, and somebody has to clean it up. They will mot likely not have to regualte it, but they will have to clean up the mess left by some people. Why is there a problem with this?

do nothing wrong and you CANT be moderated.



Post Edited (02-17-03 13:10)


Racing Is Life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting
Jesus may be able to heal the sick and bring the dead back to life, but he can't do shît for low fps

Ellis, this whole thing has grown way out of its true meaning.
You are going very mildly and I can understand that.
But please let me put some record straight.
Who remembers how it all began?

Sadly, this laiser-faire often leads to meaningless topics. Also, some sensible topics suddenly turn into general discussion or into pure sillyness.
If you want to make/ keep this forum worth visiting, please use clear topics and stay on topic.

This was Bruno.
Effect? That thread was almost immediately filled with nonsense ans sillynes again (not very smart move, was it?)
So he had to go on again:

The best proof that the forums really need a moderation is the "forums' moderation" topic itself. Again, a topic is invalidated by silly and meaningless posts.

Once again, things turned out the wrong way. Sillyness, spam and so on. Plus some "warnings" to Bruno to not change anything.
I like the crazy sense of humor of this forum and to be honest I don't come here for GP4 at all. Just for F1 forum or the fun that we have here in OT.
Sadly sometime it is not possible to indulge in sillyness at all costs.
Bruno pointed out something serious, he deserved serious replies.
Unfortunately he got almost none: something from Morbid, something from Mortal but that was it.
He also deserved respect, but once again, despite some empty words, he did not get much, if anything at all.
Yet we must remember that he owes us nothing: just because he offers us this space for free doesn't mean he has any obligation to do so.
I think it would be just the minimum of politeness to listen to him and behave within the boundaries he sets.
Sorry to say but this kind of freedom you are claiming (i.e. to spam or turn everything into crap - even if it would be funny crap) it is not for free but has a cost.
So if you want absolute freedom pay for it with your own money, else be ready to obey some rules.

But what annoyes me the most is that censorship joke (or should I say fraud?).
Censorship is sadly a damn serious thing in this world. Censorship means hiding facts from people or deny them the right to voice their opinion and is addressed at bending and twisting people minds and beliefs.
Now where in the hell you see that in here?
For God sake this is a forum about a game and F1. Get serious!
What do you expect? That your post will be deleted because you say that Bernoldi is a crap driver or MS a cheater? Or that they will not let us mention Matti Latinen anymore?
Don't make me laugh please.
There is no holy principle involved in all this.
Who pays for this site just said: please stay on topic and make sure your threads and posts have some sense. Answer was: no way, I have the right to post what I like at will whenever I want. (That was it. Go back to GP4 forum and read please what was written. It is enlightning, more so if you can read between the lines).
So babbling about freedom of speech and censorship here is totally out of place. You cannot pretend that others are willing to pay bandwidth, connection and storage costs for you to write silly stuff or LOL or LMAO countless times.
And please give me a break: this kind of stuff is not opinions nor informations. Let's try to have some respect for the hundreds of millions of people who suffer under regimes where censorship is applied for real or where freedom of speech is denied in serious matters before wearing those ridicolus badges.
Once again give me a break and please don't try to offend my intellect.

So you liked the forum the way it was? Fair, most of the times I do as well.
Unfortunately he who pays doesn't always agree and, unfortunately as well, you can't do nothing about that since he is the one who pays the bill, not you.

Moreover I'm still waiting to someone who tells me all the mischiefs Ellis and Mortal did so far.

P.S. Ellis it doesn't need much guts to speak against the one who are promoting freedom of speech, does it?

Yes I still have my pun-gun....



Be ready!

To tell the truth, Ive got more important things to worry about in my life than wheather the forum has mods or not.

Im sorry to say that boycotting is not the way forward. I know i had agreed with it but this is getting childish now people. Fair enoguh i am against the idea of moderators but cant we just reach a comprimise "in ellis' thread" as it is starting to get a little stupid i feel....

After reading what Paolo has said, i am inclined to agree with everything he was said, i think that its gotten blown out of proportion and compared to some of the stricter sites out there ( like Matti's) this forum is laid back and humourous, & friendly. some other sites seem sterile in comparison.

I do post on a few other ones, but i always regard this at my home where i feel i know the members and i feel comfortable here, some others don't seem to feel quite right although everyone is friendly.

This forum has a comeraderie within it and we are a close knit community, wether or not it will change for the worse remains to be seen, i for one hate to see stuff deleted because it has strayed off topic etc, and warnings have been made and so on.

We do owe a lot to bruno & stephan for allowing us this play ground, as rightly said by Ellis they do it out of their own cost, so we need to repect their wishes when they ask for a hand moderating.

I hope that being the first one to turn around and back down from the stance against the new moderation is'nt seen by the others taking part as backing down under pressure or anything and i hope they don't hold it against me, but if i'm honest i was never really comfortable with the decision but felt i had to stand with my comerades so to speak.


i don't wish to stick two fingers up at the site owners because they have decided to enforce moderators ( this is only my opinion, no one elses)
, infact i can see how it will help curb offensive posts ( we know who ) and i hope that the only post's that do get moved/deleted are the serious ones.

Sure we get off track in some threads, but we always tend to get back on track again, its called going off on a tangent & i for one don't mind this. After all, diversifying is'nt a crime is it?

anyway, i'm prepared to wait and see how the full time moderatoring thing works and then i'll make a desicion, its only fair to let them have a crack of the whip.

as Ellis mentioned, he's only moved a few OT threads to the correct section ( which i have been guilty of on other forums when i first joined,) we'll be greatful of it in the future i'm sure.






LS's Tip of the week
ESSENTIAL OILS aren't essential unless you're an engine, a gearbox or a twat

erm,

is it too late to say ive forgoten how to type? :P (i have no room in my sig for the anti thingy pic )


cya on the other side peeps just hope i dont get lost on the way :P

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I'm beginning to wonder whether people have a problem with moderation or not being chosen to moderate.

I don't really think that's the issue, its lonely at the top and you can get blamed for a lot of things if the **** hits the fan. There just isn't a real need for moderation o this board.



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She says brief things, her love’s a pony
My love’s subliminal

Im with ls on this issue, totally.

BTW none of this came to a surprise to me, think about it, it was time something big happened on this forum :P

WE've gone a considerably long time without the "major incidents" on this forum:

For example

"ellis2ktwat" *
"immense spammage"
"cai9 spammage"*
"forum died"*
"temporarty new forum"*
"back into the new forum"
"GP4 angst (pc gamer e.t.c.)" *
"off topic section"
"Ballards rantings"*
"sveps + co"*
"edit button"


now lets look back, through each of the problems (highlighted at *) we came through them as a community, and through each of the other changes we also made it. If we dont stick together now and decide in a democratic way how to cope with this and if we must leave it. But for godness sake lets takle it and not boycott as that will do more harm to our community then good.

The stupid thing about this is not that people are expressing opinions about whether or not we should have moderation, or if we should have it, how it should work. The stupid thing about it, is that so few took it seriously when Bruno typed up the "Forums' moderation" thread. As everyone can see, opinions are scattered all over a wide spectrum. I truely believe, that if we had talked it through back then, we would be much closer to each other regarding this.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

"sveps + co"*

Sveps is not coming here anymore(his ego is hurt)
sveps=matic=serc=superman=coca cola=kurba=sarah

I am good now
Anze Roblek=anze89

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This topic will never come to an end, because we are like

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I am sorry to say this boys and girls, but moderation is censorship.

Take a quality dictionary and look it up. Like "Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary of Current English". It states:

censor n 1 official with authority to examine letters, books, periodicals, plays, films, etc and to cut out anything regarded as immoral or in other ways undesirable, or in time of war, helpful to the enemy. 2(...) vt (...) examine, cut out, parts of (a book); act as a ~. ~ship (...) n function or duties of a ~.

(...) - parts cut out by me.
vt - verb transitive

Note the italics by me, namely, regarded as immoral or in other ways undesirable.

That means that an official with someones authority, like a moderator, that examines, with the intent to cut out anything regarded as immoral or in other ways undesirable, like our moderators are supposed to do, are acting as censors, and in that way, their function is to apply censorship.

Censorship is censorship, and it cannot be conjugated into degrees. You can talk about how severe it is, but in any case, either it takes place or it does not. And it certainly is not restricted to backward, brutal and oppressive regimes far far away.



Post Edited (02-18-03 09:54)

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

No, moderation is not censorship because moderation can be applied in different ways. We have Moderators, but that does not mean we will moderate in the normal way. I havent had to moderate anything have I? I have moved threads over to there correct places where they should have been started in the first place, but i have not had to censor anyone have I?




Racing Is Life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting
Jesus may be able to heal the sick and bring the dead back to life, but he can't do shît for low fps

G'day all..

Then why do we have mods?

This past week has seen this argument go around and around in circles. But moderation [b[is[/b] censorship, if either Dave or mortal disagreed with something I wrote (ok, I know they won't, but the fact is it can happen, and it's just as bad) then they can do whatever the hell they want with it.

Strange as it seems, things such as this bothers people, namely Morbid and Vader. I for one am not a fan of it either.

Not yet, but as Morbid says, the definitions are basically identical. So you can't -long term- do one without the other.



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She says brief things, her love’s a pony
My love’s subliminal

This past week has seen this argument go around and around in circles. But moderation [b[is censorship, if either Dave or mortal disagreed with something I wrote (ok, I know they won't, but the fact is it can happen, and it's just as bad) then they can do whatever the hell they want with it.

so can bruno and Stefan? We are filling in for them whislt they are away, that is all. do you have a problem with what Stefan and Bruno would do to your posts? they can even ban and remove you from the forum, but nobody has anything agasinst that. We are simply filling in for them when they cant be here. We dont have the full powers like they do, just a small selection.

Then why do we have mods?


I have stated many times why, but people do not listen! Read my psot above yours

I have moved threads over to there correct places where they should have been started in the first place,

Thats why. SPAM




Racing Is Life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting
Jesus may be able to heal the sick and bring the dead back to life, but he can't do shît for low fps

Hey, I just clarified a concept that thePredictor had blurred pretty much. It was supposed to empower us to discuss the issue, using the proper terms, and thereby be more aware of what we decide and why. It was not a statement that was to be read pro or con.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.