Euro 2012

I still hope for Holland going on to playoffs, Germany needs to win and so does Holland, by 3 goals. Then if van Bommel doesn't play anymore, and maybe de Jong or Willems are replaced, all the better. Hate those dirty players .

Interesting tweet from Jake Humphrey!

Gomez has had the ball for a total time of 22 seconds in 2 games, and scored 3 goals. The way he and Schweinsteiger hooked up the other night was amazing. I might seem obvious to most but is England's downfall in international football the fact that the premiership is hugely international? Look at Bayen Munich, how many players play for them and the national side? Do the same for Barcelona, Real and then Spain?

As I say, I guess it's obvious to most but surely that is one reason why Spain and Germany function so well as a unit. England's match against France however was the first time I've seen them keep their form well, and generally look like a tough competitor.

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

Or look at it another way - the English players aren't good enough to form a top European team around.

Of course, even if the EU allowed a limited number of non-English players, then you'd expect a few more decent English talents to emerge, just through getting more first team chances in their formative years, but it would be unlikely to make much of a difference.

We're just obsessed with physical advantages when picking academy candidates, and as such the more talented, but slower, shorter or weaker seldom get much of a look in unless they're exceptionally talented (and even then I'm struggling to think of a recent example).

Gav nailed it, Chet. Brazil has had issues with physical strength ahead of talent in the children/youth levels thanks to an awful group of coaches that keep being recycled by teams regardless of how rubbish they are. Our mentality is still offensive/skill based but coaches somehow enjoy having 2-3 defensive midfielders.

Regarding Schweine, he and Sneijder were the best players in the 2010 WC. Schweinsteiger also was top notch in 2006, it's a fallacy how the FIFA and Ballon D'Or awards have been excluding truly deserving talent for a while now.

gav Wrote:
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> We're just obsessed with physical advantages when
> picking academy candidates, and as such the more
> talented, but slower, shorter or weaker seldom get
> much of a look in unless they're exceptionally
> talented (and even then I'm struggling to think of
> a recent example).

You'll have to explain to me a bit more simply if you can? More to the point, explain how and why those physical attributes are more desirable? Are you saying a player will be more likely picked if he is stronger, and taller than if another is shorter but scores goals?

As I say, I am not a huge football, the only regular matches I watch are the international tournaments.

On a slightly side note, the only England player of recent times who I've watched and been very, very impressed with is Jack Wilshire.

And again, Gui, im struggling to understand how and why physical strength is key over skill and talent? Surely physical strength is something that could come with age (and training?) but talent and skill are things thought of being more natural?

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

A lot of it has to do with winning lower, non-professional championships to build prestige and reputation. It is very rare to find a kid who can make a difference in the whole team just with his talent, and at that age those who are taller and stronger usually have an advantage as their teams will play a defensive minded game, or counter-attack, or something that doesn't require much of keeping ball possession or finesse. Some like to call it more effective, result-driven formations.

A lot of this is founded on the idea of "oh, so and so may play beautifully but look, they didn't win the World Cup." The thing is, not always the favorite wins and also many times pretty football is also very effective. Brazil 58, 70, Spain 2008 Euro Cup, are examples of beautiful play with the result. Netherlands 74-78-98, Brazil 82, Bulgary 94, Croatia 98, Germany 2006-2010 World Cups, Russia 2008 Eurocup are examples of beautiful playing without the title. Every now and then a team will pop up and shed some light for hope of a change in mentality. Barcelona in the mid 2000s was one, the Barcelona from 2009-2012 is a current one, Spain and Germany's national team play are probably the top 2 in the world right now, and this domination with results and eye candy are inspiring a change in the game again. This is a reason I really didn't want Chelsea winning the Champions League, while the defensive way they played was efficient and highlighted an excellent defensive setup, it was very anti-game and even cowardly. I'm an Internazionale fan but Mourinho's win in 2010 was as cowardly as it can be.

It is easier to put people behind the ball, tackling anything in front of them (hitting the ball or not) and just let it rain crosses into the box, than to try and coach a team to move intelligently and with expert ball movement. At a young age, as I said, kids are still very raw and lack full vision of the game, or some fundamental skills. With strong and tall players you can play a physical game and many times come up with a good result, and in football a lot of the job security comes from titles, not playing style or player formation.

I hope this makes sense, I think I may have gone a bit too far in some points and not as far in others but if you get the jist I'm happy.


Edit: Taking the traditional style of football in Britain, where the game is more direct and with a focus on high balls and crosses, the physical aspect stands out more.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/15/2012 10:05AM by Guimengo.

I believe Chelsea's mentality is the only one they could employ (against Barca anyway) where they could win the game. The players they used for the game were aging, and in no way were able to play Barcelona off the park. They needed to be a defensive as possible and hit on the break because players like Iniesta, Xavi and Messi just punish you.

But this shouldn't have to be the only way. I think that more fluid play is coming into the PL because there's managers like Wenger, Martinez and Brendan Rodgers who play with flexible formations (often based on a 4-3-3) where the players can overlap and cause havoc in the opponents half. Now Rodgers has gone to Liverpool, this ethos will spread to a team that (somehow) has a fair few England internationals and a penchant for the long ball.

I don't like the way that some teams 'lump it up to the big man up front'. I think, though, with players like Wilshere, Oxlade-Chamberlain and maybe Adam Johnson (it's a travesty that he gets so little game time under Mancini), England should look to start developing a more fluid style of play.

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GPGSL: S6 - TafuroGP Tester (14th) /// S7 - ART Tester (6th) /// S8 - Demon Driver (13th) /// S9 - Demon/Snake Driver (13th) /// S10 - Snake Driver (???) ///]
"My ambition is handicapped by laziness" - Charles Bukowski

Quote
chet
You'll have to explain to me a bit more simply if you can? More to the point, explain how and why those physical attributes are more desirable? Are you saying a player will be more likely picked if he is stronger, and taller than if another is shorter but scores goals?

I don't necessarily mean goals, but skill. Passing, technique with the ball and tackling, and it's not youth teams (typically 15-18 year old in Britain), we're talking football academies when they're choosing prospects at the age of 10. They're picking players based on how tall, strong or fast they can be rather than how much potential skill a child could be expected to develop in any given area.

Alan Shearer was originally a defender, then Southampton offered him a chance and found him to be better employed as a striker. He's wasn't especially skilful in the sense that Gui's wet dreams are of Brazilian skill, but his technique for hitting a football into a goal was exceptional (yes, he was powerful too, but he had skill with his head too). Even those most basic of skills are going missing because players like Carroll (big brute of a forward), Crouch (11 feet tall) and even Rooney (powerful and quite fast) are being nurtured instead. Rooney is a bit of an exception in that he's half decent at hitting a football, but he's no Shearer. Messi's fairly strong for such a short guy, but that's not what makes him who he is.

Gui and Gav, much clearer, thanks :D! And lol @ Gui's wet dreams.

I guess your points have slightly been illustrated today with Englands first goal, the Carrol one? I heard another interesting stat that before this game 9 or 10 of the last 12 goals against Sweden were headers, hence the reason Carroll was played.. and you saw the result.

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

Quote
chet
I guess your points have slightly been illustrated today with Englands first goal, the Carrol one?

No, not at all. That was a great header from a great ball.

You could argue most of Carroll's game was of the standard I meant though - putting himself about.

Another player I'd have argued about was Walcott - all pace and no technique - indeed, a text I saw during the game, when Carroll accidentally smacked the ball into the ref's gentleman's area, summed up most people's opinion of Theo:

"It's got to be disheartening for Theo Walcott, to see that the referee's penis has got a better 1st touch than him."

Still, he rather proved us very, very wrong when he came off the bench... if only he could perform like that in more games, both for club and country.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2012 10:22AM by gav.

My favorite aspect of the game is passing . I appreciate how difficult it is to do some of the dribbling moves we've seen from Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, C.Ronaldo, Robinho, Neymar, Jesus Navas (in practice for Spain during WC 2010, worth a check on youtube!), etc, but the simple beauty from how Zico played, and how Messi plays (he's the new Zico hands down) just highlights what's truly important.

About Shearer, easily one of the best English players of all time, I absolutely enjoyed watching him play. Innate striker, fabulous positioning and finishing. He was strong but he had class, these days there are too many people who are just strong/big/tall but lack that extra bit of talent.

Interesting point of view's guys, it's the "your tall you will be a good goalkeeper" sort of mentality. Which when you put it that way i can see how england do do that, especially with the new youngsters. We tend to judge more of physical attributes as opposed to actual footballing skill, i myself have experienced this when i was dropped from the team due to the fact i was "too thin to be a defender". After that i quit, and people have told me since that i have the right instincts and gameplay to be a good defender so should have continued.

Some shock results today, with Greece and Czech Republic going through, knocking Poland and Russia out! Russia were simply too relaxed, almost as though they believed they would go through regardless of what they did. Poland had the same syndrome as they did against Greece, good first half but didn't take chances, then in the second half they were poor, except this time they were made to pay with an exit. I can't see either team getting passed the Quarters however, and the team's in Group B must be loving the prospect of having the threat of Russia gone and now facing either Czech Rep or Greece.

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truecrysis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Interesting point of view's guys, it's the "your
> tall you will be a good goalkeeper" sort of
> mentality. Which when you put it that way i can
> see how england do do that, especially with the
> new youngsters. We tend to judge more of physical
> attributes as opposed to actual footballing skill,
> i myself have experienced this when i was dropped
> from the team due to the fact i was "too thin to
> be a defender". After that i quit, and people have
> told me since that i have the right instincts and
> gameplay to be a good defender so should have
> continued.
>
> Some shock results today, with Greece and Czech
> Republic going through, knocking Poland and Russia
> out! Russia were simply too relaxed, almost as
> though they believed they would go through
> regardless of what they did. Poland had the same
> syndrome as they did against Greece, good first
> half but didn't take chances, then in the second
> half they were poor, except this time they were
> made to pay with an exit. I can't see either team
> getting passed the Quarters however, and the
> team's in Group B must be loving the prospect of
> having the threat of Russia gone and now facing
> either Czech Rep or Greece.

I was told I was too small to be a 'keeper...(I'm 5'10", might have a point) so I never really followed up with it. I was acrobatic enough but was a bit sloppy...but I digress.

I don't take back what I said a few days ago about Russia, because they still have some really good players. It's unusual that the groups are done on a head-to-head basis instead of on GD, which is a system that's favoured the Greeks.

However, with this I have solved the Eurozone.

Russia have lots of money from oil and stuff. Greece have no money. Greece sell their QF space to Russia for lots of money. Problem solved

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GPGSL: S6 - TafuroGP Tester (14th) /// S7 - ART Tester (6th) /// S8 - Demon Driver (13th) /// S9 - Demon/Snake Driver (13th) /// S10 - Snake Driver (???) ///]
"My ambition is handicapped by laziness" - Charles Bukowski

Height only affects so much. When I was 8 I played goalie with the 13-14 year olds, though I was tall for an 8 year old (1.91m today ). Goalkeepers need to want to be goalies, it doesn't work if a kid is always put on goal because they're too tall or just have poor footwork. What matters is positioning, reflex, quickness, and jumping ability.

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