Who cares about.... !

John, sadly even gp3 was'nt a solid product on release. You really should try gp3 2000, it's much better, and so on.

I'd just like to clear up that when I said 'yawn' it was because on gp4's release there were a lot of similar threads, where people said they were unhappy with the product and I (perhaps stupidly) replied to many of them.



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She says brief things, her love’s a pony
My love’s subliminal

Now I'm a bit confused...

Fred Nilssen said:
" 7 gears = Yes
Camber, temp, toe = No "

Now you tell me that camber IS in the settings. Without a screen that tells what your tire temps are, after the lap(s) how do you know if your camber settings are not going to cook the tire ?

JohnW

I hear you. I too wish that they would have added some more features to the setup, some torque modelling would have been nice aswell. But truth to be told I don't like how F1 2002 handles one bit, like driving on ice, and despite the letdown from Crammond by not taking the game a couple of notches further I am enjoying GP4 immensely. If fun is what you want I think GP4 will suit you (especially since you're used to, and like, GP3); if you want state of the art physics, raw power and hell of a lot of fun - go buy a BMW M5, M3 or a used Porsche 911. Nothing beats the real thing.

Eugene,

Thanks for the input. I do actually spend a lot of time in the advanced settings screen trying to find the magic setup that will gain me that time. It's when the EA guys say,".. that that extra camber setting really helped my lap times.." THAT'S when a begin the grumble. I've got a CART racing sim that has had camber settings for years.

I STILL may stay with GP3 or GP4. I've been scouting out video card prices, just in case they get the major bugs fixed. It would be cool if I could try them out, side by side, and see which physics model "feels" right to me.

JohnW

" ...maybe its because there are no games where the level of simulation and playability John wants is available. "

Really ? All I wanted was camber settings. Many racing sims have that. Even old Nascar 2 has tire temps acrossed the tire. I don't think that is out of reach for GP.

JohnW

Hmmm, given those choices, a new video card is not such a big purchase.

JohnW

Fred,

You are correct, I don't think that any of us believes that driving their SIM (even with a fancy MOMO wheel) will make us a better F1 driver when we get the chance to test for Michael Schumachers position at Ferrari. Neither do we think that piloting a 747 in Flight Simulator (tm) will provide us the ability to jump into the cockpit and fly to Tahiti. However, in my opinion, the more realistic, the better.

"Don't bother me with you completely meaningless antics about physics and what your perception of reality is."

Believe it or not, these things matter to some of us, if they didn't I'd still be playing Pole Position on my Atari.

... I really liked that game, btw. And I still play it from time to time but not for the same reasons. For me, "immersion" is just that, being involved in every aspect of what I'm doing, not just turning a wheel and pushing some pedals. We all look for different things to entertain us and the truth is, whatever works for each individual is just fine.

Hey, M5's are cheap nowadays!!

Fred,

You are correct. There is no game that really and completely simulates a real drive in a race car. Wether you like the simulated " feel " of one game over another is all personal taste. Since I've never used any of the EA racing games, I can't say if I would like their idea of what it should be like over the GP3 or 4 simulation. What I can say is that a persons setup can wildly effect the feel of the car. Perhaps some of the wildly differing opinions about GP4s feel is due to wildly varying setup preferances. What I was just hoping for is the ability to use all the normal tools to tune my simulation experience. It justed seemed, from my reading, that GP4 added more visual wow factors and less racing "feel" features. I just could understand the hue and cry about the lack of these wow factors and little if any mention of setup features.

JohnW

-qwerty-

I actually tried all over the place to find GP3-2000 in the US. I had already gotten GP3 and thought the upgrade sounded good. Nobody had it. Many hadn't even heard of it. I tried to get it from UK sources but they said they couldn't sell it in the US. Might have been special coding that made it not work with my US version of GP3.

By the way, birds do piss. It's the white part of the bird dropping. It's also the part that eats your cars paint.

"We all look for different things to entertain us and the truth is, whatever works for each individual is just fine."

Agreed, it just bothers me when people come over to GP4 forums (or whatever it may be about) and whine about what's lacking and how much they're not liking/playing/using it. I don't like F1 200x one bit, but nor do I bother the people who like those games - it's their thing, not mine. There's just no point and ruins the fun for everyone.

Maybe I've made you out for the GP4 basher that you aren't, if so I apologize - but if you are, then why are you even here? There are plenty of forums for F1 200x around.

The sore point in this particular instance, however, I think is that people apply their own idea of physics and then bash the other game - but while they're doing that they're also bashing everyone's personal opinion of physics of those folks who like the other game. What I mean is: When you say that GPx physics suck you're effectivly saying that the other person has no damned idea what they're talking about - and being a man (as most often is the case) heated argument ensues.

So let's just put the physics comparisons on ice - or I'm sure we both could amass lots of competent real world drivers that would vouch for a particular games' accuracy in the physics department. However, not even that makes either of us right.

We all look for different things to entertain us and the truth is, whatever works for each individual is just fine. Let's rest it at that.

Addenum: I do however agree that GP4 should have camber, tire temperatures, toe in/out and better torque modelling. It would have been nice. But even with that lacking I find GP4 to be more to my liking than F1 2002 is.

First of all I would like to say welcome to JohnW. I hope you stay here and have a good time. And I hope the setup tips I gave you served you well.

I not gonna go into this discussion big time, but I would like to point out a simple thing.

It would seem that many people feel that the ability to go on the internet and state your opinion to a huge audience from almost anywhere in the world, makes common sense and good manners obsolete. A thing of the past, that can be dispensed with at leisure...

Picture this:

I walk into a room where a bunch of heavy duty soccer players and fans are gathered. They are quite busy, discussing whatever details and aspects of their favourite pastime that come to mind. Some of them even seem to know each other quite well. No one seems have seen my, or to mind my presence, and in fact I didn't even need an invitation. I could right in, since the front door was wide open. I decide to ask some questions. There is a bowl with blank nametags and a pen on the table beside me. So I grab a tag and the pen, and scribble a name on the tag, and put it on my shirt.

Satisfied that everyone will be able to see my alias, I shout: "Who cares about offside rules and penalty kicks! Thats just fluff! The main thing is that the players do spectacular and fascination moves, outsmarting each other, and winning duels through pure exellence of technique and teamwork! And the umpire is a fool! Why can't we have state of the art video coverage, so we can dispense with these ridiculous rulings, that are so often blatantly unfair. Decisions like these are important, and we can't rely on the human factor here. We need some major changes to this game, or I am not gonna waste a minute on it! So is this gonna be fixed before the next World Championship or what?"

How would these people react to me? Would any of you even think of doing like this? Or how about walking into a chess club and saying:

"The knight can move 2 steps on way and then 1 in a 90 degree angle? And he can jump over pieces?!? You must be kidding me!"

Or how about walking into a comic book store and shouting: "Why can't you understand that Spiderman should have been dead a million times over. Come on, he can't possibly do all that stuff and survive!"

Or wandering into a Counter-strike forum and posting: You think you can dodge bullets by jumping around like Bugs Bunny? Are you on drugs?!?"

I don't think that there are many other places you could have chosen JohnW that could present so many and so dedicated fans of GP4. When you open a can of whup-ass on the design decisions in the game in your first post, you are asking for trouble. You are shouting at the wrong people. They had no influence on these choices...

I would kill to get the design features you are asking for, and yes, I had been hoping so much for them to be there. Suspension geometry, and tyres temps/pressure is important. (Btw, torque has been modelled since GP3. It was at max output at 10.000-12.000 rpm before, now its 12.000-14000 rpm, give or take a few rpm. I cannot remember the exact figures). But they are not there!!!

So I, like everyone else, had to find out whether the game could be fun or not, with these shortcomings. I am having the time of my life. If you do not expect to get the same satisfaction out of the game, I feel that it is a damn shame. But it is no justification for thoroughly pissing off the people that actually can have some fun with GP4. You can express whatever opinion you want to, but if you can't play nice while you do it, please go play somewhere else... And I certainly would like to extend that piece of advice to Eugene as well. At first glance you made me think big time Troll-alert, but on second thought I would rather think of your behaviour as... well, rather uncouth.

And if you (now JohnW again) were looking for information, you probably would have been much better served by asking questions about information first, and saving the opinions for your second post.

And if you wanted an unbiased opinion, you should probably ask some people that have played the game for an extended period that didn't want to continue. IMHO they have the best insight as to what the shortcomings (minor as well as severe) of the game are, since they have been put off by it. Asking those that are playing the living @!#$ out GP4 every day and are having a blast for something that even comes close to a balanced assesment is asking for far too much. You wouldn't ask Magic Johnson (skill not withstanding) about what the crappy things about basketball are, would you?

Things got out of hand, granted. There are some rather appalling stuff in this thread, and I deliberately waited before posting this, so that I would not be caught up in the melee of the hot tempers. And granted, you might not have been the dude that drew first blood, but you definately supplied the gunpowder for the explosion. I have absolutely no intention of rekindling the flames. They have burned enough people already.

I just want to point out a more graceful approach and a more well thought out opening post, could have provided you with most of the information you wanted, and spared you the trouble of an extended forum skirmish. Just like the approach you used when you asked for help with setups and when you asked for help with the Force feedback for your wheel.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

G'day all..

Bags not being the person who has to follow up Morbid's post.....d'oh!

The fact that you would criticise my behaviour as "uncouth" while mentioning NOTHING about your fellow posters who find no problem with personally insulting new members says something about the quality of this forum.

You first struck me as measured and articulate but I now fear that your reading comprehension could use some help. Call me a "Troll" if you like, call me "uncouth" if you must, but the demeanor of this thread changed almost immediately following my arrival. From an atmosphere of insult and anger to one of assistance and contribution.

While I agree that John's initial post might have been worded differently, he was talking about a game. When I look at the URL for this site I see www.grandprix3.com, and by that I would assume that it is a site dedicated to GP3 [John's prefered software] and when I go to the forum for GP4 I would expect that based on the fact that it is a new addition to the GPx line-up, there would be some discussion of it's failings, some comparison of GP3 to GP4, and so on. I would expect that a post such as John's would inspire debate and discussion.

After all, it turns out many of you agree with him.

Jeez you still want to fight? Amazing!

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

I do not want to fight with anyone. I find these discussions so much more productive when we all have a possitive attitude but conversley, I am not going to sit here with my thumb up my ass while you or anyone else pops in with their 2 cents, quid, whatever. You dished out your unsolicited opinion of me and I should be entitled to do the same.

Regardless, while I may not agree with your opinion, I am an ardent supporter of your right to give it (even if you don't like me

So, let's get on with the project at hand. JohnW needs help and advice regarding GP4 and 3, help him and you win a loyal fan, continue to criticise him for his past transgressions and we will get no where.

Morbid,

I can certainly see the point of your reply. It may have been more couth to pose the question in less emphatic language. Perhaps it was due to a frustration that I had after reading so many poor reviews of the new game. I think the product has a great potential but has either been rushed to release or the developers got the type of input that lead them to feel that the visual presentation was more important than making changes or fixes that a good number of sim folks and/or reviewers feel is important. When I first visited this forum, I was REALLY surprised by the high importance given to, in my opinion, less substantial additions. So I feel GP4 has missed the mark it could have easily hit. Was it from player input or from their own ideas ? I don't know.

I just didn't realize how deep into the GP3/GP4 fandom I had surfed. Still, I think some of your examples of the type of blasphemy I had spoken were a bit more extreem than what I had done. I didn't say, " Why are you all playing this game? Don't you know it is the worst sim out there? " I have read your posts on taking the enjoyment out of the game by convincing players that they have a flawed game. That is far from my intent. But, I now see that it could have raised some hackels. I really don't mind a heated debate and did expect to get some heat over the topic. I didn't expect to have the debate drop to such a low common denominator so quickly.

JohnW

Eugene,

The check is in the mail <grin>.


JohnW

Thanks for your input JohnW. I did not think that you had any malicious intents, just that you were a bit... unlucky. Coming forward and saying "no harm intended" gives a lot a credits here. I don't think people will give you a hard time in the future.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.