Physics engine: GP4 vs. F12002
Posted by maniak
| Registered: 20 years ago |
Even further:
"I think because GP4 doesn't reproduce these effects "if you get it (reasonably) right" you turn in and exit "on rails" a- la Scalextric. If you "get it wrong" you cannot correct the slide or oversteer and as I read somewhere else "you go off in a canned spin" i.e. once the sim decides you have got it wrong you cannot correct it. Opposite lock or more/less gas or brake changes nothing"
NOT TRUE! I play without FF and I can induce understeer/oversteer whenever I want to, and it also happens when I don't want it to. And I do catch them, with the graphic "pizza" moves you describe. And I have the replays to prove it.
You just don't get the point do you? It is a game. A recreation of something. That will means it will always be a impression that passed on by the developers into an expression, which you as the user experiences. It is an interpretation.
In that sense, it can never be anything else than advanced storytelling no matter what you do. For the gamer the fundamental question is, and will always be, if the experience you get is sufficiently compelling to make you see through, or rather forgive, everything that is not there or not as it should be.
This seems to be the case with F1 2002 - FOR YOU. But that does not mean that it is so for everyone else. Which is most book "American Psycho" by Brett Easton Ellis or "About a boy" by Nick Hornby? The question makes no sense, and neither does any answer.
That does not mean that certain aspects might not be better in one book than the other. The same with games. But if the tale, and when we talk games it is the interactive tale, is compelling enough, we stop being critical and let go. We lose ourselves and enjoy. We suspend our disbelief, as we so often do. If we didn't, we would all be yammering over why Luke Skywalker and all the supporting characters didn't die at least ten times in the original Star Wars trilogy. Feats like the Lord of the Rings would be impossible. Almost nothing is realistic here, but present themselves in the guise that they are as realistic as any sim could be, or as realistic as the real world itself.
If we couldn't suspend our disbelief, we would whine and lament over every cultural product that wasn't a strict rendition of the real world in accordance with acceptable statistical probabilities. Letting go and participating in the make believe is the prime requirement for having fun with any game, regardless of genre and subject matter.
In my honest opinion both games have very strong points and weak points. Which of these weak points that destroys, or of the strong points that counterbalances this makebelieve is a matter of personal taste and preference. One gamer might say "Strong AI, thats what I need". Another might say that sound is the most important factor. Others say the strict perfection according to the laws of physics is what matters. In general, gamers decide based on the impression of the overall package, and foremost if they are having FUN.
No when people get up on the proverbial soapbox, and preach that either game is the call of the true creed, the one and only true religion, then a large body of people get their makebelieve placed in a very precarious situation. For a period of time, playing the game that was rated "not worthy" by those that have found the truth, will always be like going to the theatre and watching a movie your bests mates have just slagged off minutes before you entered the threatre. It stops being fun, even though the game has not changed at all. But the preception has! The ability to perform the leap of faith, the suspending of disbelief, has been undermined, and the makebelieve harder to accept.
In reality, these preachers of the true faith, if they shout often and loud enough, are destroying the fun that people had before they opened their mouth and began to spread the gospel. I cannot see that as being anything else than the upmost cruelity based on utter blind self-indulgence and feelings of moral/knowledgable/intellectual/cognitative superiority: - "We know better than you do, and you do NOT have the right to make a choice. And if you do, then there will be hell to pay."
And the sad thing is that those that get their game an fun destroyed have very few options. They can stop playing the game, play the game they have now been told represents the truth (that is to convert), or they can defend their position. They go on the counterattack. So suddenly it is the preachers that get their fun destroyed. And the circle is complete. And it gets progressively worse as each the day passes. It is not only a circle, it is a vicious circle. And everybody loses...
And thats why F1 2002 and GP4 gamers have such a hard time getting along. The tragic part is that we belong to the same community, and we share the same goals. To have fun, share and to get better racing sims. Its just too bad that some people cannot accept that their enthusiasm for this or that sim is not an absolute and universal standard that can be applied to everyone. But I guess we will have to suffer this for a few years more. To bad that some people cannot have fun, without having to insist on denying others same pleasure.
It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.
"I think because GP4 doesn't reproduce these effects "if you get it (reasonably) right" you turn in and exit "on rails" a- la Scalextric. If you "get it wrong" you cannot correct the slide or oversteer and as I read somewhere else "you go off in a canned spin" i.e. once the sim decides you have got it wrong you cannot correct it. Opposite lock or more/less gas or brake changes nothing"
NOT TRUE! I play without FF and I can induce understeer/oversteer whenever I want to, and it also happens when I don't want it to. And I do catch them, with the graphic "pizza" moves you describe. And I have the replays to prove it.
You just don't get the point do you? It is a game. A recreation of something. That will means it will always be a impression that passed on by the developers into an expression, which you as the user experiences. It is an interpretation.
In that sense, it can never be anything else than advanced storytelling no matter what you do. For the gamer the fundamental question is, and will always be, if the experience you get is sufficiently compelling to make you see through, or rather forgive, everything that is not there or not as it should be.
This seems to be the case with F1 2002 - FOR YOU. But that does not mean that it is so for everyone else. Which is most book "American Psycho" by Brett Easton Ellis or "About a boy" by Nick Hornby? The question makes no sense, and neither does any answer.
That does not mean that certain aspects might not be better in one book than the other. The same with games. But if the tale, and when we talk games it is the interactive tale, is compelling enough, we stop being critical and let go. We lose ourselves and enjoy. We suspend our disbelief, as we so often do. If we didn't, we would all be yammering over why Luke Skywalker and all the supporting characters didn't die at least ten times in the original Star Wars trilogy. Feats like the Lord of the Rings would be impossible. Almost nothing is realistic here, but present themselves in the guise that they are as realistic as any sim could be, or as realistic as the real world itself.
If we couldn't suspend our disbelief, we would whine and lament over every cultural product that wasn't a strict rendition of the real world in accordance with acceptable statistical probabilities. Letting go and participating in the make believe is the prime requirement for having fun with any game, regardless of genre and subject matter.
In my honest opinion both games have very strong points and weak points. Which of these weak points that destroys, or of the strong points that counterbalances this makebelieve is a matter of personal taste and preference. One gamer might say "Strong AI, thats what I need". Another might say that sound is the most important factor. Others say the strict perfection according to the laws of physics is what matters. In general, gamers decide based on the impression of the overall package, and foremost if they are having FUN.
No when people get up on the proverbial soapbox, and preach that either game is the call of the true creed, the one and only true religion, then a large body of people get their makebelieve placed in a very precarious situation. For a period of time, playing the game that was rated "not worthy" by those that have found the truth, will always be like going to the theatre and watching a movie your bests mates have just slagged off minutes before you entered the threatre. It stops being fun, even though the game has not changed at all. But the preception has! The ability to perform the leap of faith, the suspending of disbelief, has been undermined, and the makebelieve harder to accept.
In reality, these preachers of the true faith, if they shout often and loud enough, are destroying the fun that people had before they opened their mouth and began to spread the gospel. I cannot see that as being anything else than the upmost cruelity based on utter blind self-indulgence and feelings of moral/knowledgable/intellectual/cognitative superiority: - "We know better than you do, and you do NOT have the right to make a choice. And if you do, then there will be hell to pay."
And the sad thing is that those that get their game an fun destroyed have very few options. They can stop playing the game, play the game they have now been told represents the truth (that is to convert), or they can defend their position. They go on the counterattack. So suddenly it is the preachers that get their fun destroyed. And the circle is complete. And it gets progressively worse as each the day passes. It is not only a circle, it is a vicious circle. And everybody loses...
And thats why F1 2002 and GP4 gamers have such a hard time getting along. The tragic part is that we belong to the same community, and we share the same goals. To have fun, share and to get better racing sims. Its just too bad that some people cannot accept that their enthusiasm for this or that sim is not an absolute and universal standard that can be applied to everyone. But I guess we will have to suffer this for a few years more. To bad that some people cannot have fun, without having to insist on denying others same pleasure.
It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.
| Registered: 20 years ago |
Morbid really hit the nail on the head there. F12002 gives you what you want. GP4 gives me what I want. There is no point in trying to convince me that I shouldn't enjoy my GP4 illusion of what driving an F1 is like, and likewise with your F12002. I'm tired of this pointless endless argument.
| Registered: 20 years ago |
| Registered: 20 years ago |
| Registered: 20 years ago |
Good point...
By the way, how much do you guys usually push the car? Do you force the tires to screech a lot or just a little or do you drive at the limit of screeching? Lately I've had some problems with my tired wearing off too fast, wonder if it's because of my ... ehemm ... driving style...
The manual says if it's not screeching loud you're too slow!! maybe, but then I'm only able of driving something like 10laps fast ... and yupp ... I've selected soft settings ...
ciao!
By the way, how much do you guys usually push the car? Do you force the tires to screech a lot or just a little or do you drive at the limit of screeching? Lately I've had some problems with my tired wearing off too fast, wonder if it's because of my ... ehemm ... driving style...
The manual says if it's not screeching loud you're too slow!! maybe, but then I'm only able of driving something like 10laps fast ... and yupp ... I've selected soft settings ...
ciao!
| Registered: 20 years ago |
Morbid has a point. This thread has exceeded its scope. Even if I personally enjoy the philosophycal approach of Morbid and I agree with the "suspended disbelief", still, this is out of what we originally intended.
I didn't start this thread to justify one's preferences. The reason was to identify, in a rational manner, the pluses and minuses of the physical engines of f12k2 and gp4. I am sure that if we all concentrate on that we can come up to some conclusions that will make the judgement of one game or the other more facile. Actually, so far there were some very good posts, pointing at things that nobody thought before, or if they did, it was more like an irational process, rather than a rational one. I think that's outstanding, since it is much easier to say "that game rules because I say so" without giving it much thought, rather than reconsider your judgement based on real arguments.
I must congratulate all posters in this thread for putting an effort.
Now to answer 'seemsnice':
Even if it's still a mistery how the poster you quoted got to a 500% better FF effects in f12k2 compared to gp4 (I would have said 637%
), I fully agree that while f12k2 has an oustanding FF engine, GP4 is lacking any kind of qualifiable one. Your point is quite valid, and I think that, yes, you can gather lots of information if the FF engine is good. Good job.
Also, I am impressed with your background in racing. Maybe you can enlighten me on something: Is a racing car really behaving that unstable, like f12k2 shows it?
maniak
Oh, my public! How they love me! (Looney Tunes)
I didn't start this thread to justify one's preferences. The reason was to identify, in a rational manner, the pluses and minuses of the physical engines of f12k2 and gp4. I am sure that if we all concentrate on that we can come up to some conclusions that will make the judgement of one game or the other more facile. Actually, so far there were some very good posts, pointing at things that nobody thought before, or if they did, it was more like an irational process, rather than a rational one. I think that's outstanding, since it is much easier to say "that game rules because I say so" without giving it much thought, rather than reconsider your judgement based on real arguments.
I must congratulate all posters in this thread for putting an effort.
Now to answer 'seemsnice':
Even if it's still a mistery how the poster you quoted got to a 500% better FF effects in f12k2 compared to gp4 (I would have said 637%
), I fully agree that while f12k2 has an oustanding FF engine, GP4 is lacking any kind of qualifiable one. Your point is quite valid, and I think that, yes, you can gather lots of information if the FF engine is good. Good job.Also, I am impressed with your background in racing. Maybe you can enlighten me on something: Is a racing car really behaving that unstable, like f12k2 shows it?
maniak
Oh, my public! How they love me! (Looney Tunes)
| Registered: 20 years ago |
| Registered: 20 years ago |
Cai, Your Excelency, your presence in this thread is gives it a whole new meaning, and makes us all happy that we, the mortals, have the great opportunity to share our thoughts with a personality of the highest rank. Thank you, thank you, thank you!
Let me assure you of our highest consideration and non-dissimulated respect.
Yours trully and sincerelly,
maniak
Oh, my public! How they love me! (Looney Tunes)
Let me assure you of our highest consideration and non-dissimulated respect.
Yours trully and sincerelly,
maniak
Oh, my public! How they love me! (Looney Tunes)
| Registered: 20 years ago |
| Registered: 20 years ago |
| Registered: 20 years ago |
| Registered: 20 years ago |
| Registered: 20 years ago |
I'm a bit late into this tread....sorry
But anyway this physics disscussion is not flogging a dead horse.
It's interesting. This forum is partly for people to muse over roughly GP4 related things isn't it.
For me the "feel" of the car is the most important issue with a race sim. The previous posts have been very interesting (it's nice to see a forum where it does't descend into personal abuse by about post 10). I won't add much other than to say i've allways enjoyed GPx better than F1 200x because i can feel the limit coming a little before it does in GPx and not in EA's games. For this reason i can chip away at lap times and during races you can make concious decisions about how hard to push. In EA games i'm just fighting the car the whole time.
I must add the proviso that i haven't tried F1 2002 yet.
But anyway this physics disscussion is not flogging a dead horse.
It's interesting. This forum is partly for people to muse over roughly GP4 related things isn't it.
For me the "feel" of the car is the most important issue with a race sim. The previous posts have been very interesting (it's nice to see a forum where it does't descend into personal abuse by about post 10). I won't add much other than to say i've allways enjoyed GPx better than F1 200x because i can feel the limit coming a little before it does in GPx and not in EA's games. For this reason i can chip away at lap times and during races you can make concious decisions about how hard to push. In EA games i'm just fighting the car the whole time.
I must add the proviso that i haven't tried F1 2002 yet.
| Registered: 20 years ago |
Morbid - Prince of Darkness - I think you need to LIGHTEN UP mate !
I believe forums are for expressing ones views, we don't all have to agree with your views (assuming we could understand them buried so deep in all that bullsh*t !)
Quote:
........Plenty taken. (offence)
Sorry to offend you - I did have my tongue firmly in my cheek !
Quote:
I strongly, nay violently reject your placement of cause. In pure volume of text - half of my original post, and the whole point of it and my follow up posts was actually the opposite. To show the folly of the highbrow approach to discussions like these.
WHAT ? Say what you mean and keep it simple for us stupid English people without University educations. Sh*t I am just a humble All platforms Mainframe/Unix/Wintel Server Engineer AND car sim/game and FPS fanatic.
Quote:
And I never slagged off any of the games. I slagged off the people that slag off other people, just because they don't play the same game.
I never said YOU did, did I ? No I generalized about many people here who have slagged off F12002.
Lets get some things straight here.
I bought GP4 and F12002 with my hard earned cash and play both on a daily basis these last few weeks. I also bought and heavily used GP2, GP3, & GP3 2k. Also I bought and very much enjoyed Ubisofts F2 Racing Sim and MGPRS2. I never bought previous F1 2xxx versions but tried the demos and thought they were crap. I am NOT on any soapbox just expressing MY VIEWS - I agree (and if you read more carefully you would see I do) that F12002 and GP4 have both got their good points.
I also know that these sims are VERY subjective - some like GPx some like F12002 and I have no intention of spoiling the games for anyone - and I think that's another crock of sh*t too as it happens.
If people don't buy GP4 it will be because it was WIDELY complained about not just here but on every sim forum in terms of it's poor performance. I have made it run quite well now on my machine thanks mainly to tips gleaned from this excellent source of ingenuity.
I STILL think that when you pay £35 for a "state of the art" game "as near as it gets" etc. you have a right to it working on day one, not being told you will have to wait for a patch sir.
That said when GP4.5 or GP5 is released I will reserve a copy in advance as I have with all previous levels since GP2. I also will probably be there for F12002.5 or 2003 too as IN MY HUMBLE OPINION it is the better driving experience. GET IT - I.M.H.O - if you think F1 Championship or F1 Manager is a better game that's fine with me - I won't flame you because of your views, try to force you to change them or SPOIL your enjoyment.
QUOTE:
You just don't get the point do you? It is a game. YES I DO ! I might not have had such opportunities as you to get a University Education to the obviously exceedingly high standard you have BUT I AM NOT STUPID.
Just because I don't have the education and the "shed full" of highbrow language you have DOES NOT MEAN I LACK INTELLIGENCE.
QUOTE:
Which is most book "American Psycho" by Brett Easton Ellis or "About a boy" by Nick Hornby? The question makes no sense, and neither does any answer. YOU'RE damn right there MORBID - that statement makes no sense AT ALL ! Just more highbrow claptrap !
QUOTE:
But if the tale, and when we talk games it is the interactive tale, is compelling enough, we stop being critical and let go. We lose ourselves and enjoy. We suspend our disbelief, as we so often do. If we didn't, we would all be yammering over BLAH BLAH BLAH ..... Almost nothing is realistic here, but present themselves in the guise that they are as realistic as any sim could be, or as realistic as the real world itself. MORE BLAH BLAH BLAH !
If we couldn't suspend our disbelief, we would whine and lament over every cultural product that wasn't a strict rendition of the real world in accordance with acceptable statistical probabilities. EVEN MORE BLAH BLAH etc....
Like I said before, lighten up - why don't you just say what you mean.
QUOTE:
No when people get up on the proverbial soapbox, and preach that either game is the call of the true creed, the one and only true religion, then a large body of people get their makebelieve placed in a very precarious situation. For a period of time, playing the game that was rated "not worthy" by those that have found the truth, will always be like going to the theatre and watching a movie your bests mates have just slagged off minutes before you entered the threatre. It stops being fun, even though the game has not changed at all. But the preception has! The ability to perform the leap of faith, the suspending of disbelief, has been undermined, and the makebelieve harder to accept.
In reality, these preachers of the true faith, if they shout often and loud enough, are destroying the fun that people had before they opened their mouth and began to spread the gospel. I cannot see that as being anything else than the upmost cruelity based on utter blind self-indulgence and feelings of moral/knowledgable/intellectual/cognitative superiority: - "We know better than you do, and you do NOT have the right to make a choice. And if you do, then there will be hell to pay."
END QUOTE
Sorry to offend and I am sure I WILL YET AGAIN - but what a load of b*ll*cks ! If people want to know if a game is any good they read reviews and forums and if they have some sense try a demo or borrow a copy. If they see one bad thing about a game it doesn't put them off or spoil their fun providing there are good things said too and for GP4 and F12002 there are plenty of good things said. However if there are hundreds of bad comments and reviews not to mention your bug list of what ? 100+ bugs then that just MIGHT put some people off AND perhaps spoil their fun.
On the other hand not everybody is flush with enough cash to buy these very expensive titles several times per year and they need to be very careful with selecting games that are good value, playable and FUN. I think they deserve to know when somebody is ripping them off or if they are better off keeping their GP3 2000 and perhaps buying a £10 "classic" copy of GP Legends.
QUOTE:
And the sad thing is that those that get their game an fun destroyed have very few options. They can stop playing the game, play the game they have now been told represents the truth (that is to convert), or they can defend their position. They go on the counterattack. So suddenly it is the preachers that get their fun destroyed. And the circle is complete. And it gets progressively worse as each the day passes. It is not only a circle, it is a vicious circle. And everybody loses...
More claptrap ! If they read the reviews and posts and try the demos they can then make a more subjective choice if nobody airs criticisms of bad products when deserved then these people remain unaware and get ripped off.
QUOTE:
And thats why F1 2002 and GP4 gamers have such a hard time getting along. The tragic part is that we belong to the same community, and we share the same goals. To have fun, share and to get better racing sims. Its just too bad that some people cannot accept that their enthusiasm for this or that sim is not an absolute and universal standard that can be applied to everyone. But I guess we will have to suffer this for a few years more. To bad that some people cannot have fun, without having to insist on denying others same pleasure.
I agree with most of this except I like BOTH games as I suspect do others. I also have gripes with both but that is MY view as it is my right to express the views on the forum. I DON'T agree with the last sentence as I don't "insist on denying others same pleasure" - I just think they have a right to read others views and make their own decisions.
Now I will get down off the "soapbox" (NOT mine but the one you left behind Morbid)
Your reply to my post surprised me AND then p*ssed me off bigtime. I read it several times went away for a while then read it again and I just had to climb up on your box and reply.
I don't want to fall out with you and didn't mean to offend you but I cannot read all that pompous rubbish and not respond.
Now you will probably flame me again and if you do I will probably slink away with my tail between my legs and not surface here again. There is NO WAY I can win a "war of words" with you god damn it - YOU KNOW TOO MANY !!!
I believe forums are for expressing ones views, we don't all have to agree with your views (assuming we could understand them buried so deep in all that bullsh*t !)
Quote:
........Plenty taken. (offence)
Sorry to offend you - I did have my tongue firmly in my cheek !
Quote:
I strongly, nay violently reject your placement of cause. In pure volume of text - half of my original post, and the whole point of it and my follow up posts was actually the opposite. To show the folly of the highbrow approach to discussions like these.
WHAT ? Say what you mean and keep it simple for us stupid English people without University educations. Sh*t I am just a humble All platforms Mainframe/Unix/Wintel Server Engineer AND car sim/game and FPS fanatic.
Quote:
And I never slagged off any of the games. I slagged off the people that slag off other people, just because they don't play the same game.
I never said YOU did, did I ? No I generalized about many people here who have slagged off F12002.
Lets get some things straight here.
I bought GP4 and F12002 with my hard earned cash and play both on a daily basis these last few weeks. I also bought and heavily used GP2, GP3, & GP3 2k. Also I bought and very much enjoyed Ubisofts F2 Racing Sim and MGPRS2. I never bought previous F1 2xxx versions but tried the demos and thought they were crap. I am NOT on any soapbox just expressing MY VIEWS - I agree (and if you read more carefully you would see I do) that F12002 and GP4 have both got their good points.
I also know that these sims are VERY subjective - some like GPx some like F12002 and I have no intention of spoiling the games for anyone - and I think that's another crock of sh*t too as it happens.
If people don't buy GP4 it will be because it was WIDELY complained about not just here but on every sim forum in terms of it's poor performance. I have made it run quite well now on my machine thanks mainly to tips gleaned from this excellent source of ingenuity.
I STILL think that when you pay £35 for a "state of the art" game "as near as it gets" etc. you have a right to it working on day one, not being told you will have to wait for a patch sir.
That said when GP4.5 or GP5 is released I will reserve a copy in advance as I have with all previous levels since GP2. I also will probably be there for F12002.5 or 2003 too as IN MY HUMBLE OPINION it is the better driving experience. GET IT - I.M.H.O - if you think F1 Championship or F1 Manager is a better game that's fine with me - I won't flame you because of your views, try to force you to change them or SPOIL your enjoyment.
QUOTE:
You just don't get the point do you? It is a game. YES I DO ! I might not have had such opportunities as you to get a University Education to the obviously exceedingly high standard you have BUT I AM NOT STUPID.
Just because I don't have the education and the "shed full" of highbrow language you have DOES NOT MEAN I LACK INTELLIGENCE.
QUOTE:
Which is most book "American Psycho" by Brett Easton Ellis or "About a boy" by Nick Hornby? The question makes no sense, and neither does any answer. YOU'RE damn right there MORBID - that statement makes no sense AT ALL ! Just more highbrow claptrap !
QUOTE:
But if the tale, and when we talk games it is the interactive tale, is compelling enough, we stop being critical and let go. We lose ourselves and enjoy. We suspend our disbelief, as we so often do. If we didn't, we would all be yammering over BLAH BLAH BLAH ..... Almost nothing is realistic here, but present themselves in the guise that they are as realistic as any sim could be, or as realistic as the real world itself. MORE BLAH BLAH BLAH !
If we couldn't suspend our disbelief, we would whine and lament over every cultural product that wasn't a strict rendition of the real world in accordance with acceptable statistical probabilities. EVEN MORE BLAH BLAH etc....
Like I said before, lighten up - why don't you just say what you mean.
QUOTE:
No when people get up on the proverbial soapbox, and preach that either game is the call of the true creed, the one and only true religion, then a large body of people get their makebelieve placed in a very precarious situation. For a period of time, playing the game that was rated "not worthy" by those that have found the truth, will always be like going to the theatre and watching a movie your bests mates have just slagged off minutes before you entered the threatre. It stops being fun, even though the game has not changed at all. But the preception has! The ability to perform the leap of faith, the suspending of disbelief, has been undermined, and the makebelieve harder to accept.
In reality, these preachers of the true faith, if they shout often and loud enough, are destroying the fun that people had before they opened their mouth and began to spread the gospel. I cannot see that as being anything else than the upmost cruelity based on utter blind self-indulgence and feelings of moral/knowledgable/intellectual/cognitative superiority: - "We know better than you do, and you do NOT have the right to make a choice. And if you do, then there will be hell to pay."
END QUOTE
Sorry to offend and I am sure I WILL YET AGAIN - but what a load of b*ll*cks ! If people want to know if a game is any good they read reviews and forums and if they have some sense try a demo or borrow a copy. If they see one bad thing about a game it doesn't put them off or spoil their fun providing there are good things said too and for GP4 and F12002 there are plenty of good things said. However if there are hundreds of bad comments and reviews not to mention your bug list of what ? 100+ bugs then that just MIGHT put some people off AND perhaps spoil their fun.
On the other hand not everybody is flush with enough cash to buy these very expensive titles several times per year and they need to be very careful with selecting games that are good value, playable and FUN. I think they deserve to know when somebody is ripping them off or if they are better off keeping their GP3 2000 and perhaps buying a £10 "classic" copy of GP Legends.
QUOTE:
And the sad thing is that those that get their game an fun destroyed have very few options. They can stop playing the game, play the game they have now been told represents the truth (that is to convert), or they can defend their position. They go on the counterattack. So suddenly it is the preachers that get their fun destroyed. And the circle is complete. And it gets progressively worse as each the day passes. It is not only a circle, it is a vicious circle. And everybody loses...
More claptrap ! If they read the reviews and posts and try the demos they can then make a more subjective choice if nobody airs criticisms of bad products when deserved then these people remain unaware and get ripped off.
QUOTE:
And thats why F1 2002 and GP4 gamers have such a hard time getting along. The tragic part is that we belong to the same community, and we share the same goals. To have fun, share and to get better racing sims. Its just too bad that some people cannot accept that their enthusiasm for this or that sim is not an absolute and universal standard that can be applied to everyone. But I guess we will have to suffer this for a few years more. To bad that some people cannot have fun, without having to insist on denying others same pleasure.
I agree with most of this except I like BOTH games as I suspect do others. I also have gripes with both but that is MY view as it is my right to express the views on the forum. I DON'T agree with the last sentence as I don't "insist on denying others same pleasure" - I just think they have a right to read others views and make their own decisions.
Now I will get down off the "soapbox" (NOT mine but the one you left behind Morbid)
Your reply to my post surprised me AND then p*ssed me off bigtime. I read it several times went away for a while then read it again and I just had to climb up on your box and reply.
I don't want to fall out with you and didn't mean to offend you but I cannot read all that pompous rubbish and not respond.
Now you will probably flame me again and if you do I will probably slink away with my tail between my legs and not surface here again. There is NO WAY I can win a "war of words" with you god damn it - YOU KNOW TOO MANY !!!
| Registered: 20 years ago |
Maniak -
QUOTE:
Also, I am impressed with your background in racing. Maybe you can enlighten me on something: Is a racing car really behaving that unstable, like f12k2 shows it?
I have driven a few race cars as I said before. The only ones I had any input to in terms of set up were my own Ford Cortina Mk1's in the 70's. As I built the GT for rallying and modified the Lotus I could tinker with setups spring and dampers rates, final drive ratios etc.
With all the Racing School cars I had no input to their setup. They are all basically "off the shelf" cars in the case of Formula Fords and Vauxhalls. You do the classroom theory, go round with an instructor in a Fiesta XR2 (when I did it in the early 90's) then you drive him around then you get a few laps in a single seater.
Again with the Racing Truck it was a friends vehicle and I got to do a few laps in it on a test day. I think this was the MOST powerful vehicle I have ever driven. The acceleration was phenomenal. They "look" fairly ponderous but when you sit inside and floor it and chuck it into some corners the g-forces were quite incredible. I don't know what the bhp was but it was a Turbocharged Cummins diesel (tuned and supplied free by Cummins and they supplied parts and an engine tuner for race days) in a small Ford Cargo cab (small and light). The engines were governed later I think for safety reasons but in 1988 or 1989 when the sport was new there were few restrictions. Brands pit straight was taken over 100mph and then 85-90mph I would guess on the run down/up to Druids, but the acceleration was astounding - I think under 4 secs to 60mph - thats Ferrari Testarosa levels I think in a 3 ton truck !
Anyway to get back to your point and I am not an expert but my view is this.
A well setup race car of any formula will drive on a "knife edge" i.e. properly sorted you should be able to control the car by SLIGHT balancing with brake, throttle and steering. IF the inputs the driver puts in are too great (over correction of oversteer for example) then the vehicle can swing wildly and if this over correction continues then you get this "wheel sawing" effect or tank slapping as the bikers call it.
I guess you also get it in a poorly designed or setup car too, like for instance the Jaguar F1 ! If the balance of the car is good the inputs required to keep it on "the edge" are very small and then laptimes will come down. Too much on the edge and you cannot react quickly enough to bumps. kerbs or Alex Yoong and you are in the gravel. But if it is right just "feathering" the throttle or "2 foot braking" can control the attitude of a vehicle precisely how you want it.
I probably havn't described that very well. Others I'm sure could do better. I think the real experts at this are the Colin McRaes on dirt and mud, Giles Pannizzi on tarmac and of course Schummacher in/on just about anything (except a rally car perhaps, has he ever driven in a rally ?)
All these guys keep the car on "the edge" and look smooth while doing it with small movements of the wheel. Others like Kimi seem to use more wheel input hence the sawing wheel movements. Martin Brundle calls this "overdriving" the car. Personally I think the smooth driver must be faster and must look after their tyres better than the "wheel sawers" but like I said I am only an amateur and I havn't driven any competition spec car (apart from my road Cossie) for 10 or 12 years.
As far as F12k2 is concerned I prefer the driving feel (with FF) to GP4 and I think the car is NOT unstable - maybe it is your driving style (like Kimi) or maybe you need to adjust the (very extensive) settings for the wheel in the game to reduce sensitivity or increase dead spot (I always keep deadspot to near zero though). My son is quicker than me in GP4 but I thrash the pants off him in F12k2. He has a job to keep the car straight on the straights let alone the corners !
I really don't like the physics in GP4 - it just doesn't suit me - I keep falling off "the edge" and cannot recover quickly enough and just spin off or I make the car stable and predictable but too slow. I cannot get the balance like I can in F12k2 !
But like we keep saying this is all personal choice. If I persevered more I might get the knack in setting up GP4 but I prefer sometimes to just start the game and race competitively straight away and for this I prefer F12k2.
I do play both games every day though at present so havn't given up yet !
I also love NASCAR games and have several. These varied a lot too. Nascar 2 was good, Nascar 4 - I couldn't stay on the track, much to twitchy whatever the setup. Nascar 2002 near perfect IMHO. Nascar Heat I loved - very forgiving - correcting possible and nice feel with FF wheel - maybe not a perfect sim but very enjoyable and very close racing and looked great too.
I also love GP Legends but again find it impossible to get fast AND stable setups. The AI cars just leave me standing then I get frustrated and go play something else. But I keep trying - one day I might suss it out - LOL
PIII 1.0GHz Abit SA6-R MSI GEForce3 512MB SBLive5.1 Win98SE/XPPRO dual boot Mirrored IBM 7200rpm UDMA100 disks Guillemot Ferrari FF Wheel
QUOTE:
Also, I am impressed with your background in racing. Maybe you can enlighten me on something: Is a racing car really behaving that unstable, like f12k2 shows it?
I have driven a few race cars as I said before. The only ones I had any input to in terms of set up were my own Ford Cortina Mk1's in the 70's. As I built the GT for rallying and modified the Lotus I could tinker with setups spring and dampers rates, final drive ratios etc.
With all the Racing School cars I had no input to their setup. They are all basically "off the shelf" cars in the case of Formula Fords and Vauxhalls. You do the classroom theory, go round with an instructor in a Fiesta XR2 (when I did it in the early 90's) then you drive him around then you get a few laps in a single seater.
Again with the Racing Truck it was a friends vehicle and I got to do a few laps in it on a test day. I think this was the MOST powerful vehicle I have ever driven. The acceleration was phenomenal. They "look" fairly ponderous but when you sit inside and floor it and chuck it into some corners the g-forces were quite incredible. I don't know what the bhp was but it was a Turbocharged Cummins diesel (tuned and supplied free by Cummins and they supplied parts and an engine tuner for race days) in a small Ford Cargo cab (small and light). The engines were governed later I think for safety reasons but in 1988 or 1989 when the sport was new there were few restrictions. Brands pit straight was taken over 100mph and then 85-90mph I would guess on the run down/up to Druids, but the acceleration was astounding - I think under 4 secs to 60mph - thats Ferrari Testarosa levels I think in a 3 ton truck !
Anyway to get back to your point and I am not an expert but my view is this.
A well setup race car of any formula will drive on a "knife edge" i.e. properly sorted you should be able to control the car by SLIGHT balancing with brake, throttle and steering. IF the inputs the driver puts in are too great (over correction of oversteer for example) then the vehicle can swing wildly and if this over correction continues then you get this "wheel sawing" effect or tank slapping as the bikers call it.
I guess you also get it in a poorly designed or setup car too, like for instance the Jaguar F1 ! If the balance of the car is good the inputs required to keep it on "the edge" are very small and then laptimes will come down. Too much on the edge and you cannot react quickly enough to bumps. kerbs or Alex Yoong and you are in the gravel. But if it is right just "feathering" the throttle or "2 foot braking" can control the attitude of a vehicle precisely how you want it.
I probably havn't described that very well. Others I'm sure could do better. I think the real experts at this are the Colin McRaes on dirt and mud, Giles Pannizzi on tarmac and of course Schummacher in/on just about anything (except a rally car perhaps, has he ever driven in a rally ?)
All these guys keep the car on "the edge" and look smooth while doing it with small movements of the wheel. Others like Kimi seem to use more wheel input hence the sawing wheel movements. Martin Brundle calls this "overdriving" the car. Personally I think the smooth driver must be faster and must look after their tyres better than the "wheel sawers" but like I said I am only an amateur and I havn't driven any competition spec car (apart from my road Cossie) for 10 or 12 years.
As far as F12k2 is concerned I prefer the driving feel (with FF) to GP4 and I think the car is NOT unstable - maybe it is your driving style (like Kimi) or maybe you need to adjust the (very extensive) settings for the wheel in the game to reduce sensitivity or increase dead spot (I always keep deadspot to near zero though). My son is quicker than me in GP4 but I thrash the pants off him in F12k2. He has a job to keep the car straight on the straights let alone the corners !
I really don't like the physics in GP4 - it just doesn't suit me - I keep falling off "the edge" and cannot recover quickly enough and just spin off or I make the car stable and predictable but too slow. I cannot get the balance like I can in F12k2 !
But like we keep saying this is all personal choice. If I persevered more I might get the knack in setting up GP4 but I prefer sometimes to just start the game and race competitively straight away and for this I prefer F12k2.
I do play both games every day though at present so havn't given up yet !
I also love NASCAR games and have several. These varied a lot too. Nascar 2 was good, Nascar 4 - I couldn't stay on the track, much to twitchy whatever the setup. Nascar 2002 near perfect IMHO. Nascar Heat I loved - very forgiving - correcting possible and nice feel with FF wheel - maybe not a perfect sim but very enjoyable and very close racing and looked great too.
I also love GP Legends but again find it impossible to get fast AND stable setups. The AI cars just leave me standing then I get frustrated and go play something else. But I keep trying - one day I might suss it out - LOL
PIII 1.0GHz Abit SA6-R MSI GEForce3 512MB SBLive5.1 Win98SE/XPPRO dual boot Mirrored IBM 7200rpm UDMA100 disks Guillemot Ferrari FF Wheel
| Registered: 20 years ago |
Earth to seemsnice and Morbid! Maybe you should both take it easy.
Even if I hate to play the moderator role, as I am the adept of a very relaxed "laissez faire", please try to stick to the theme of this thread. Some of your arguments are valid and I intend to keep them in my final conclusion to this saga. But most of it is just bitter talking. Morbid must have been pissed off when he wrote his post and 'seemsnice' just got pissed of in his turn, but I think it's just misunderstanding.
I don't think Morbid means any disrespect when he talks "high class English". This has always (sheesh, I only know him for a couple of weeks or so
been his style. Seemsnice, I think you should learn to tolerate the non-essential aspects of one's behaviour. Morbid's language is not essential here. What he means is. Even if not relevant to this thread
I just want you to know that I hate you both for making say the bollock hereabove By the way, can anyone, preferably native English speaker, tell me the meaning of bollocks? Apparently I don't get the true extent of this word
maniak
Oh, my public! How they love me! (Looney Tunes)
Even if I hate to play the moderator role, as I am the adept of a very relaxed "laissez faire", please try to stick to the theme of this thread. Some of your arguments are valid and I intend to keep them in my final conclusion to this saga. But most of it is just bitter talking. Morbid must have been pissed off when he wrote his post and 'seemsnice' just got pissed of in his turn, but I think it's just misunderstanding.
I don't think Morbid means any disrespect when he talks "high class English". This has always (sheesh, I only know him for a couple of weeks or so
been his style. Seemsnice, I think you should learn to tolerate the non-essential aspects of one's behaviour. Morbid's language is not essential here. What he means is. Even if not relevant to this thread I just want you to know that I hate you both for making say the bollock hereabove
By the way, can anyone, preferably native English speaker, tell me the meaning of bollocks? Apparently I don't get the true extent of this wordmaniak
Oh, my public! How they love me! (Looney Tunes)
| Registered: 20 years ago |
Bollocks = ballocks. Vulgar expression for testicles or nonsense.
I can't say I blame you for carrying a grudge. I tried to point the thread back on track, but as it is clear for all to see, that failed utterly.
I have sent an email to seemsnice and hopefully we can figure this out, without botching this (or any other) thread up even further.
It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.
I can't say I blame you for carrying a grudge. I tried to point the thread back on track, but as it is clear for all to see, that failed utterly.
I have sent an email to seemsnice and hopefully we can figure this out, without botching this (or any other) thread up even further.
It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.
| Registered: 20 years ago |
Sorry i ahevnt read all this but Vades said this
"Who are we to judge how it feels to steer a 800+ bhp open wheel formula racing car, taking Eau Rouge flat out?"
we cant, but since GP4 credits says thanx to the orange arrows F1 team, i would say GP4 is better sicne F1 teams have worked with it. Also - JV used GP2 to learn the F1 tracks when coming into F1
Racing Is Life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting
Jesus may be able to heal the sick and bring the dead back to life, but he can't do shît for low fps
"Who are we to judge how it feels to steer a 800+ bhp open wheel formula racing car, taking Eau Rouge flat out?"
we cant, but since GP4 credits says thanx to the orange arrows F1 team, i would say GP4 is better sicne F1 teams have worked with it. Also - JV used GP2 to learn the F1 tracks when coming into F1
Racing Is Life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting
Jesus may be able to heal the sick and bring the dead back to life, but he can't do shît for low fps
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