My EmailTo Infogrammes To Complain About GP4 (Trevor Witt Should Recognise This)

Latin - Reduce to the absurd. It can be done in two ways.

Reduce the other dudes statements thereby proving how incorrect (used the nice way)or how stupid (used the less nice way)what the other guy says is.

The thorough and acceptable, where you show that the speaker has without knowing it come into conflict with his own statements or what is obiviously true. For instance: "If what you say is true, then because bla bla bla, then gravity does not work for birds. This cannot be true therefore what you say must be wrong." You just elucidate what the consequences of what the other guy says are, while at the same time you stay true to the spirit and intent of his argument.

OR, it can be done the less acceptable way, were you do not care what was meant by what was said, what the substance is, nor do you care if you accurately reflect what the other guy said. In essence you twist the other guys arm, to make his statements fit into your preplanned scheme. You have stopped pursuing what can be said to be true, and have begun to chase an argument where the objective is to be "the one that was right", when all things are said.

They go under the same term, because it can be very hard to see when you have slipped from one mode to the other.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

ok (i think)

theres something to impress my english teacher tomowo

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Okay okay, listen Morbid. Lets just call a halt to this once and for all. True we are fighting the same cause. We both want a better game. We just also include two different points of view.

1 - You want to get the patch sorted asap and believe that a colloboration of data delivered to Infogrammes illustrating the errors could lead to a more productive patch.

2 - While I agree with your point, I am just also arguing the feeling off being a mistreated PC user. I feel we have been given a substandard product in the companies effort to fulfill the XBox version to console expectation. Sod the PC user.

Anyway, if you agree then I believe that the arguements that we have raised would function more powerfully if integrated. I believe that your work on collaborating the bug data and either Steve Ferris or myself with a petition or document to say that the general PC user is unhappy with this treat of our games playing nature should be brought together and presented to Infogrammes in someway.

When I sent that email to Infogrammes it was in a spur of the moment heated re-action and I was unaware of the voice of discontent shouting loud on these forums.

But maybe together we can make a difference.

By the way, do you really believe that Trevor Witt could be our voice of reasoning after delivering a pitiful big company @ss licking of the game?

Lol

I agree that a collective effort is required, however, we have to make it clear to Infogrames that we are unhappy with the situation. I applaud the fact that you have taken on the task Morbid, but this constant bickering between Cmspodwy and yourself will only undermine the effort. Everyone on the list should pull together to act as one as we all have the same common goal.

Now the problem with this is that not everyone will agree on the most appropriate course of action, hence the disagreements.

The patch list is an excellent way forward, but we also have to make it clear to Infogrames that there is a large group of people who are less than happy with state of the game. Individuals voicing their anger will have little impact, but a group effort would give Infogrames food for thought.

Whether Trevor Witt can be seen as an ally is questionable. His review does hint that his opinion may not be unbiaised and after reading his posts to some of the topic lists I wonder if he actually reviewed the game? Also since Cmspodwy challenged him in one of the topics I haven't seen any further posts from him.

I do think a petition to Infogrames from this community is a good idea along with Morbid's continued good efforts in compiling the comprehensive bug list.

Opinions?

Stuart Ferris

It is nice that we have found an agreement. And it might even prove to be effective. I sincerely hope so, and now I do consider you a partner in crime .

Lets shake on that.

One of the reasons Trevor is here is that we contacted PCgamer 3 months ago, and voiced our concern for GP4. They gave us some advice on what could be done, if we were right. Of course he is here to do business as well, but I don't think that they have discarded our previous discussions. In fact I think he is keeping an eye on whether we are swinging into action as we said we would. We even discussed how the PCgamer review, which was not typed yet, could be used by us for this purpose. Even though it wasn't him that was here three months ago. The dude that was here, was the dude that was assigned at that point in time to do the review. Trevor did it instead, so I guess that is why he is here now. So yes, I do think he can help. PCgamer already has, you see...

As to impressing your teacher Jon, I would like to point out had a typo in the latin name. It is "Reductio ad absurdum".

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

Hmmm you might have more luck if you sent this e-mail to Infogrames, rather than Infogrammes. Schoolboy error methinks, if you wanna get heard by the big boys.

Paul,

I did get your email over the w/e, and I see that you've posted it here too, I'm not ignoring the thread but I'm in a very difficult position on this matter. All I can say in a public forum is that, like everyone else, I'm hoping for an early patch release that will cure alot of the initial problems with the game. I do stand by my review though, I think it's an excellent game and I'm enjoying it thoroughly at home. As a freelance reviewer for PC Gamer though, I'm not at liberty to make comments that may be seen as coming from that magazine when they're simply my own personal opinions. In my mind GP4 is a great achievement in design and technology and hopefully you'll find it that way too when some of the problems have been addressed. And in answer to some other comments here, the review is completely unbiased, I was employed by PC Gamer, not Infogrames, to review the game and I was not influenced by any party to come to a conclusion other than my own. I hope that someone else here is enjoying the game as much as I am (bugs included) and will back me up on this!

Cheers,
Trev.

Well talking about the sun... Thanks for joining in Trevor

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

Trevor,

Thanks for joining in, and we do realise the position you are in. However, although I do not wish to question your ethics, I do think it would satisfy a lot of people on the list if you could clarify how you as a reviewer approach a review of a product? In particular I would like to know the following:-

1) Is the game tested on a number of differing systems?

2) How long do you have to compile your review? i.e. how much time do you get to play the game?

3) Is your review subject to editorial scrutiny? (I expect yes is the answer).

4) Was your review edited for size or content in any way before it was published? If yes, what were the changes?

5) Did you take any account of the bugs in the game while compiling your review?

6) Can you honestly say hand on heart that magazines do not take into consideration marketing revenue from publishers when reviewing their products?

I am basing these questions on the fact that I haven't read your review in PC Gamer and I also realise that you may not be able to answer some of my questions fully.

Stuart Ferris

actually.....

i to think the game is good, but with all the bugs addressed i think its worth about 97-98% :D

but atm its only worth 87%



btw, (and im not intentinally changing the subject, but...) do you think they will help us out a bit on making sw for it? i would think they like the mod community

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I agree with Dumbass. With the game patched up, it would be 97-98%.
I still enjoy playing the game. But the bugs do make it harder on the player and sometimes very frustrating.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

Firstly give Trevor a break.

He reviewing the game according to his own preferences and tastes (as does any critic be it video games, films or restaurants). Eg some say the physics are better in F1 2002, i don't agree but i suspect it's down to peronal subjectivity (how many of us have driven an F1 car). i've played GP4 a reasonable amount and agree fully with trevs review. it's nice to have the game reviewed by a guy with some knowledge and experience of racing sims (unlike some mags which give barely a page of waffle for race car sims)

maybe trev didn't experience many bugs while reviewing. i didn't. it's not reasonable to expect him to test the game on multiple systems. it just isn't.
i've seen minor bugs and annoyances but no show stoppers. thats just luck, people with other configurations have been having knightmares.

unfortunately the fundamental nature of PC's is that there are almost limitless combinations of components/os/drivers/controllers etc... perhaps because i've had a PC for so long i'm just used to games frustrating me as soon as i install them. ever thus has it been.

As for infogrames i think it's verging on unreasonable to expect any publisher to release a PC game that will work perfectly on any system first time, every time.

HOWEVER i agree that GP4 is just not good enough in this respect. eg people should not be having trouble with a MS sidewinder wheel (not exactly an obscure and rare piece of kit). as others have said most other sortware houses do a far better job of releasing stable games.

Anyway i'm rambling. as far as morbid and cmspodwy are concerned they are both entitled to approach the problem as they see fit but it's not worth falling out over.

Pragmatically morbids way will produce a better GP4 sooner (in my opinion)
but cmspodwy has every right complaining to a company about a product that is frankly not of merchandisable quality (bug wise). Who would but up with it if it was a car or video recorder whtever.

i think some top bod in infogarmes/microprose/symergy just made the decision to release too soon. it was just a bad call. maybe under pressure as F1 2002 was already out.

i aggree..

the first few days after getting a copy (and after disabling HW T&L :P) i thought it was the best game on earth, then came the bugs :' (damn, why arent there any smilies ???)

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i aggree..

the first few days after getting a copy (and after disabling HW T&L :P) i thought it was the best game on earth, then came the bugs :' (damn, why arent there any smilies ???)

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Nice input Hakkattack.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

hmm....

why did the forum lett me double post last time?

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I havent read all this but im replying to this comment

"An Athlon, a Geforce3 and XPpro are "aliens" to Crammond and his crew?"

If you read the box/instruction booklet it clearly says XP is supportted, its listed with the other OS.




Racing Is Life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting
Jesus may be able to heal the sick and bring the dead back to life, but he can't do shît for low fps

why did the forum lett me double post last time?

Hmmm, maybe because you are such a Dumbass ...

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REHAB IS FOR QUITTERS

why did the forum lett me double post last time?

Hmmm, maybe because you are such a Dumbass ...

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REHAB IS FOR QUITTERS