My EmailTo Infogrammes To Complain About GP4 (Trevor Witt Should Recognise This)

Here is a copy of my email that I wrote off to Infogrammes (helpline@uk.infogrammes.com) to complain about the shoddy product they have released and how they have let me and an incredible francise down.

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing this email to you to complain about your recently released
game, Geoff Crammond's Grand Prix 4. I am a veteran of the Geoff Crammond Grand Prix series having already bought GP2 and GP3 and one of the reasons I purchased a new PC was to be able to play GP4 to its full potential. So imagine my disappointment and frustration when I played what is without doubt the buggiest (for want of a better word) game I have played since Hidden & Dangerous. And also, as beautiful as the graphics are, the frame rate is terribly inconsistent.

First of all, let me give you my PC specifications, well within minimum specifications you will see:

Processor - AMD Athlon XP 1700+
Motherboard - ECS Model L7VMM
Memory - 512MB DDR RAM
Graphics Card - Leadtek GeForce 4 MX440 64MB DDR RAM
Graphics Card Drivers - nVidia Detonator 29.42
Sound Card - Sound Blaster PCI 64
Operating System - Windows 98 and Windows XP Professional
Direct X - Version 8.1

Let me set you some examples:

Scenario 1

Coming into the pits in Australia, as Jarno Trulli, and there are two cars
following me. As I enter the pit lane the two cars behind me attempt to
pass and end up spilling onto the race track. Then they attempt to come back across the grass to the pitlane and crash into the wall breaking their
front wings and sometimes wheels. This has happened with any combination of cars behind me. Indeed at one stage, Pedro De La Rosa ended up spending the entire qualifying session hitting the wall of the race track after missing the pitlane, reversing and going straight back into the wall again.

Scenario 2

During qualifying in Sepang as Rubens Barrichello, I crashed my Ferrari
and lost my front wing and front left wheel. Eventually the car was taken by
the marshall and I was brought back to the pits in the cockpit of my car.
Checking all of the damage indicators shows that my car is okay and as I
click 'leave the pits' my crew come out and guide me out of the garage. So
imagine how frustrating it is to find that when I get back onto the track,
my front wing and front left wheel are still missing.

Scenario 3

Coming back into the pits at Interlagos, I stop my car in front of my
garage. The crew come out and wheel my car back into the same part of the
garage as my teammate, then David Coulthard's care just drives straight
through me like I wasn't even there, and upon seeing that my teammates car is also in the garage my crew slide my car through the wall to my side of
the garage.

Bug 1

On the main menu, if the selected track is set as anything other than
Australia it will stay as that track name as the starting track when you
select to drive a championship season.

Graphics Issues

For a graphics engine that is supposed to deliver 60 frames per second I
am left wondering what sort of machine could deliver this type of frame rate.
At resolution 640 x 480 and with every advanced option set to minimum I
can still only get a maximum frame rate of 47 frames per second.

And maybe you can explain this for me. When I have my graphics set to 1024 x 768 and nearly all advanced options at their highest settings I get a poor frame rate and processor occupancy of over 220 at the beginning of a race or driving through a start finish straight. So when I lower my resolution to 640 x 480 I still experience the same problems, only this time with awful
looking graphics.

After having been looking forward to this game for so long, I feel really
let down by what I believe has been a rushed product. Are there any
details as to when I a patch might be released to fix the problems I have illustrated (like patch version 1.13 for Grand Prix 3)? Or is there
something that I can do to possibly fix the graphical issues I am experiencing?

Otherwise, after only owning the game for one day I shall be returning it
to the shop for a copy of EA's F1 2002.

Yours Regrettably

______________

Wonderful. I''m afraid that Infogrames need to call more people to read mails contesting about GP4...

We should really concentrate on Morbid's systematic bug-list rather then post random error reports to Infogrames. It might be easier for us to negotiate (or get in contact at all) with the developers/patchers if we do not spam them with angry messages. If you have a bug to report, and this bug has not been documented at the "official" forum-bug list, add it there with ashort description of what happened and how we could recreate the bug. The aspect of recreation is important if we really want Infogrames to move in the right direction. The one thing we should not do is: make them angry about us. They need to accept us as "partners in crime".

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REHAB IS FOR QUITTERS

And don't think that those ppl who work at the customer support department at Infogrames have any idea what a "Trulli" or "Interlagos" is. It's probably all a greek to them. That's why I think we should be systematic and precise describing waht we observe.

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REHAB IS FOR QUITTERS

Thats all well and good Vader, but why should we as consumers put up with shoddy piece's of software because a major software house obviously rushed the product to the market to avoid releasing a season 2001 game in 2003.

As a customer, we are all always right and will always have the right to voive our opinions. The moment we pass our £30 - £35 over the counter, we should be safe in the knowledge that we are getting an product that is of a satisfactory standard and in my opinion GP4 is clearly not that.

You may disagree with my opinion and that is perfectly acceptable but for me as a customer who has paid £30 for a product I am unhappy with then I am perfectly within my rights to raise my issues personally with the publisher. I am fully aware that they may not pay any attention to what I say and I hope that they will take a note of the tread maintained by Morbid to illustrate the bugs in the game because ultimately all we gamers want is a great game.

As for the support team at Infogrammes not knowing what a Trulli and an Interlagos is, well I can only assume that you have no experience in the line of helpdesk support. For any company, major or minor, that provides helpdesk support to the public they are required to have the necessary knowledge about the product.

I can understand your frustration Cmspodwy. Believe me, I am also quite frustrated by the fact that bugs destroyed my ability do a proper setup for this weekend, and hence my only alternative was to stop, or to race at Nürburgring with a setup that would annoy me each and every 67 laps. That is if I every was allowed to rejoin the race after my pitstops.

And yes, you are entitled to voice your opinion. Both here and to Infogrames. I guess no one can take that away from you.

But, I also do agree with Vader, that if we are disorganized and flood Infrogrames with emails, there will come a point when they will see us as ingrates and/or ungrateful gamers. We become the enemy, not the bugs. It is wrong that they should do so, yet I have seen it countless times before. It also happens to other companies than those in the software business. They just get fed up, and hence they shut their eyes and ears. And while it might take the tip of the iceberg of frustration, it will prove counterproductive if we want a good patch(es).

They have already signalled quite clearly both at the GP4 homepage and in the official game documentation, that they will release a patch. So the mission now should be to get that patch to be as good as possible. When that is done, I don't think I would mind joining in, and condemning the shoddy beta-testing effort that went into this product.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

You are absolutely right!!!!!
Privilegè.
I can NOT even play the game.
It crashes every "single" time.
And I'm not using some "marzian" hardware config or an OS comin from vega or Alpha Centauri.
An Athlon, a Geforce3 and XPpro are "aliens" to Crammond and his crew?
So, who tested this crap? My grandmother?

Sorry, but I spent 50 Euro to NOT play. And do not tell me that the OS is faulty. I'm running many many games and programs (some of them extremely performance demanding) and had NOT a single problem.

To me is the same old story. NO respect for the consumer. We are the beta testers (gratis - even better - paying to test.)
From now on I will always wait before buying a new product from Infogrames.

Well if you cannot play the game, you have a valid reason to use the helpline at Infogrames.

I think that any system specific problem gives you a valid reason to use the helpline. And this IS system specific since a lot of people in this forum can play the game on similar machines that use WinXP.

What is wrong is to rant at the helpline, and to demand patch release dates. None of it really helps anyone. It is just blowing off steam at some poor sod that gets paid to put up with it.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

Morbid,

I agree with your points but I find the whole situation very very frustrating. Luca Maggiolini makes a valid point, are we being used as the beta testers?

At the end of the day, Infrogrammes, Microprose and Simergy have publically released a beta version of what the public was expecting to be the greatest F1 game in history. Why would they do such a thing? Well:

1 - The season 2001 F1 license would be a bit long in the tooth for the public to be happy with if released any later than this summer.

2 - Following Luca's lead, maybe we are being used as gratis beta testers.

3 - Listen to all failures of the game and release a patch in the future to have everyone hailing Microprose and Simergy for what a great job they have done and how they really listen to the fans. While in the mean time, those company's laugh off into the distance after already taking our cash.

4 - A cynic might point out that Microprose and Simergy and going to release the patch in a few months as a form of Season 2002 update. However, they would obviously charge another £20 for this as it would "completely overaul the game and make it so much better". A la season 2000 add-on for GP3.

By the way, is anyone in the world out there able to have full environment mapping turned on will still getting a frame rate of above 35 fps?

People say that GP4 is just ahead of it's time but I disagree. Many of todays games, especially first person shooters, have higher polygon counts than GP4 and run perfectly well on today's 1 - 1.5 Gig PC's. I think it is down to bad programming.

By the way, I have just tried to sign up to the newsletter on the GP4 official website and guess what, that returned errors too. Typical.

No, the patch is not going to be a season update with a cost on top. Read the documentation that came with the game, and you can see that they say that you can find product updates/patches at the official homepage. Also at the official homepage there is a menu system already set up for available patches. That seems to tell me that they have already planned to issue a patch free of charge.

As to whether or not we are being used as free beta-tester. Yes, in a sense we probably are. And since I am running the bug list, and have found and mapped a huge part of the bugs listed, I am probably the guy that should be screaming the loudest about it. Also I have just gotten a degree from Uni, so all the time I spent on bug hunting and keeping the evolution of the list organized and coordinated, does amount to: Many hours at a high salary. But I know I won't get jack.

It is a common practice to do so in the industry. I cannot say that I like it. Frankly I hate it. I can think of nothing that I would rather have wanted than that Grand Prix 4 had played flawlessly straight out of the box. But it doesn't. That leads me to believe that we have two viable choices.

1) We can work with Infogrames and the GPx team as much as we can to make sure that the game gets patched up as good as is possible. A game that is as bug free as possible, would be the objective.

2) We can dog Infogrames as hard as possible for the poor quality assurance of the product. That means complaining as hard and loud as possible, and the objective would be to make sure that software publishers never do this again.

As far as I can see these two projects are mutually exclusive. We cannot do both. Of course we could push on hard @ option 2, and then hope that Infrogrames will pay up for a new testteam. But honestly, after this do you really trust that their test team is able to do a better, or even half as good a job than we are? I certainly do not! So that would, AT BEST, lead to a half baked patch, and a lot of continued frustration while playing the game. And frankly do you really think that Infogrames and the rest of the industry will stop their way of doing business because you can type up an email?

As to the condition of the game, I think we are better off than many others are. Have you seen what is going on with Grand Theft Auto PC? Try going here <www.gta3.com> and see. Not only is the crowd of people that cannot play the game at all huge, the desperation and frustration is extreme. Everybody is emailing Rockstar, and they have long since given up on replying, even reaing the flow of mail. As a consequence, it is still the top notch of humour to pretend that you have gotten a hint of a patch from Rockstar, and then to post that on the forum, and then just count how many suckers take the bait and believe you. I really don't want that to happen here...

I would like to join in on your crusade to make the world a better place. I have been on the same crusade for almost a decade, and I don't have much to show for it than bitter memories. Laugh at me if you want to. You will not be the first and probably not the last either.

I find my strategy a lot better planned and many times more realistic than yours. And I hope that you can see the sense in it and join in.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

Let me deal with your points by the numbers.

1 - Adding a patches section to the official website of GP4 is not of any use to anyone until there is a patch availabel to download. As of yet, there isn't so it isn't really relevant to this conversation. And if it were, then what does it say about the software developer that they should immediately add a patch section to the games official website on launch day. They were obviously expecting a backlash from the consumer and obviously realeased that the game would need a patch yet still released the product in time to make the most profit (some might say, la Microsoft).

2 - I too have an honours degree from uni but I do not see the relevance of that point to our quest for an immediate patch for GP4. You putting in all these hours to collaborate the problems with GP4 is commendable but please dont start spouting out how great you are for doing it by losing all of your spare hours in the day. Some might say how great you are for doing so and some might say what a dumbass you may be for wasting your time. At the end of the day the reader will decide, they don't need you to brag.

3a - Well working for Infogrammes would be an attractive proposal yet somehow I cannot see that happening. And anyway, from my point of you they already have us working for them, maybe you in particular since you are collaborating all of this data. The fact of the matter is that in this instance proper beta testing has not taken place inhouse so it has been farmed out to the PC public, more of which I will explain later.

3b - We have the right as a customer to complain about anything that we believe we are not getting value for money for. Even if Infogrammes do not read my email it still feels spiritually uplifing to get something off my chest and that there is the possibility that they will read my email.

4 - Us being better off than others as you put it is not of any relevance to our current situation. We should we applaud Infogrammes just because their shoddy product isn't as bad as Rockstars?
No explian more about that PC public point I made earlier. Rockstar released GTA3 on the PS2, which I have and love, without any problems and got commended for it being the console game of the year for 2001. Now obviously they have not beta tested the PC version enough and did not seriously worry about it because us PC loving public hae the capacity to work around these problems and are used to waiting for patches to solve these problems. As long as the game gets out at the right time to market the larger profit share from the public then the publisher/developer sees no problem in releasing an unfinished product.
Now I find just a little bit too much of a coincidence that the XBox version of GP4 is not out until mid-august. Everyone knows that the console loving public do not put up with the release of unfinished software so there is a simple solution from Microprose/Simergy's point of view.
Release an 80% complete PC version to the public. Let them beta test the program to death and they can put up with the error's because they are the forgiving PC public afterall. Just dangle the proverbial carrot of a patch in fornt of them for the next two months while we wrap up the XBox version of the game and complete the final 20% of the PC version in the patch.

5 - "I find my strategy a lot better planned and many times more realistic than yours. And I hope that you can see the sense in it and join in."

I believe you will find that there is more depth to my argument that just a simple 'please release a patch to solve all the problems I have listed here for you' approach. You being a university graduate after all can surely look beyond the initial point of any argument to see the real point of the argument.

Anyway, I don't want to get into a bickering fight here, so all I will say is that I do not need to join your band of brothers. I am already a member. I would just like to crusade for the point that we, the PC public, shouldn't have to put up with being treat like we are when compared to our console brethren.

Sorry about the spelling, but I am at work and have not got time to spellcheck everything

just before GP3 was released, i sent an email to someone at infogrames/hasbro/microprose (i coulcnt decide who was the developer ) and they said they test the games in house.

so that must mean all or nearly all of there PCs are the same, with near the same setup (hense the bugs slipping through). now, im not demanding a public test for the next releases, but the games ive played that used public tests sure didnt have this many bugs!!!

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No other manufacturing industry could get away with the practice of releasing a faulty or incomplete product, but it seems to be the norm in the software industry.

I think the phrase 'non-merchantable quality' would be the word to use in this instance. Infogrames is probably not the people to complain to, but perhaps Trading Standards would be. I think a petition for the changes to the law relating to the release of computer software would be more appropriate. The software companies get away with it because at present there is no legislation in place which satisfactorily deals with the issue of incomplete and bugged software releases.

The PC magazines do not help. One of the reasons I bought this game on the day of release was the glowing review it received in PC Format. Based on the review I thought that, apart from a few well documented omissions, the game was nigh on perfect. In my opinion PC Format's review was more to do with preserving their advertising revenue than giving the public an unbiaised view. I used to value the opinion of PC Format, but not any more.

Patches seem to have become the norm these days, but the software companies could take a leaf out of ID Software's book. Has an ID game ever been released where it wasn't playable and stable out of the box? Any patches that were released addressed minor bugs and sought to improve on features that were already working okay.

However, Infogrames approach seems to be based on the fact that they know the game will sell by the bucketload based on the name alone. I think collectively as an addition to creating Morbid's Patch List we should immediately petition Infogrames for a statement on the game and their plans and timescales for a patch release.

Stuart Ferris

So you have a Uni degree to? I take it that your are familiar with the term "Reductio ad adsurdum"? Anyway, you are using it quite well. Not only are you reducing the meaning of what I said to the adbsurd, and thereafter using it to suit your own purposes. You are also refuting issues that I have not given voice to. On top of that, you are setting things up in unnecessary schemes of conflict. I don't want to fight you, but I do find it disturbing to have words placed in my mouth, so you can voice your disagreement with me, when we in fact agree.

If you wish to discuss this at a sober and rational level, and I sense you do, you should be able to do better. And if you wish to discuss this at an emotional level, which I also sense you do, I guess there is not much I can do either way.

Anyway, back to the main issue:

1) Are Infogrames interested in maximum profit for the smallest effort? Name a company that isn't! Was the product rushed? Yes I think it was. Is the promise of a patch a tool to handle public backlash? I don't care, as long as there is issued a quality patch. Will they withdraw the plans of a patch if the product sells better than expected? Well if you are so suspicious of everything, I better not comment further on this.

2) The Uni-degree was just to show exactly what I said. My time doing other peoples work goes at an even larger salary, IF I was paid. That was my point, no more no less. I expanded on that with stating that: I am not getting paid, thereby implying that some else probably, even hopefully, has already been paid to do what I am doing now. Do we disagree abbout that?? Furthermore, I am not doing it for big thank you's and public recognition. Why do you even bother to go so low? I made an agreement with the people that use this board a couple of months ago, and I want a better game. Thats it.

3a) Working for Infogrames is a attractive prospect?!? Are you joking?!? And who said anything about doing that anyway? Not ME! I am working for myself and this community, and I will maintain that even if it involves doing something that people at Infogrames should and maybe even have been paid for. Yes the in house beta-testing was shitty - we wouldn't be having this discussion if it wasn't - so no disagreement there. And there never was since I admitted that in the first post.

3b) You voice the excact same thing I said in the previous two posts. So why do you set it up as we disagree about your right to complain and that it feels good? My reason to voice my concern with you on doing it anyway, is that if enough emails reach their desks, they will be flooded and then they will stop reading them. And then it is impossible to point out anything to Infogrames, both for the people that want a patch (like me) BUT also for those that have real serious problems, like not being able to start the game at ALL!

4) I see no reason to applaud Infogrames. I never said we should - quite on the contrary I said that I had no problem with flaming them AFTER the patch. Anyway, I just used "the better off" notion to show one instance where the point in 3) has already happened. And if you cannot see that bright side of having a product that isn't as shitty as many others are, then I guess I will not be able to explain it. And if you cannot see that being able to communicate with Infogrames is an advantage for us, I guess that there isn't much I can do about that either.

As to the 80% conspiracy theory, I don't think that it has been planned as cynically as you put it forth, but apart from that I agree on your analysis of why the X-box has a later release date. I figured that out before I bought the game.

And as to your point of view, I never denied that we shouldn't be treated this way. I never claimed that it was right. I never even denied that it is wrong. I just cannot see that you have brought any of us closer to changing this situation. Ranting about poor QA has been going on for years. Sending emails to the publisher has been going on for years. Putting forth conspiracy theories that link the industry to the reviewers of games has been going on for years. And none of this has really changed our position - the consumers - for the better. Quite contrary, the situation is worse than ever. How on earth do you suggest we are going to change an entire marketing paradigm? I have not even seen a hazy notion, let alone a suggestion...

I would rather buy a game that I really want to be good, and then work for a quality patch, when I find that it has loads of bugs. I think it can be done. And if it it can't, well then I will probably go fulltime warez or never buy games before they have been on the market for at least 3 months.

And if your way of doing things makes it harder for me, then I guess we will have to clash. I just hope that we can bring it to a more sober level, and maybe even end the discussion without having both made fools out of ourselves.

As to the spelling, I have not been that tidy in my proofreading either. As long as we don't misunderstand each other, then I cannot really see any problems in that.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

what does "Reductio ad adsurdum" mean?

i want this to be the best, if i thind any more bugs then ill post here

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Argh, people always post while you type. Maybe you are right Stuart Ferris. Maybe we should about petition Infogrames for a statement on the game and their plans and timescales for a patch release. I have already asked them for a deadline for the bug list to be incorporated into the patch production. Sadly there has been no reply yet, but okay they have only had the email for one workday.

At the moment I am satisfied with having to email Infogrames and wiat for their respons. And if nothing happens, I see that our best partner in crime to put the squeeze on Infogrames would be Trevor Witt. He can advise us on how the industry works and how we can best acheive our objectives. Lets just hope that not to many angry gamers want to pick a fight with him when he shows up on this forum.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

Stuart, you are the man. Exactly my points. At last, someone who can look outside the circle.

If you are setting up a petition then coount me in.

As for your view of PC Format, ditto mine for Trevor Witt and the PC games magazine he works for. Check out my responses in the "GP4 and PIII-1Ghz" thread.

i just want to say that PC Format wasnt the only mag to do this.

PC Gamer gave a shining review of 90% (byt Trevor Witt)

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