A Serious question on how we, and the FIA judge drivers (Contains Korean GP Spoilers)
Posted by DaveEllis
Crashing into your team-mate (like Vettel in Turkey) is always going to draw a more negative reaction than crashing into somebody else. Like Incident said above, I don't think people liked reactions like his crazy signal in Turkey.
But it would be false to assume that there was not an element of popularity in all of this. Hockenheim this year is a good example. If it was Fernando getting the order to let Felipe past, I think there would have been a lower response.
Stewarding always has been and always will be inconsistent. Buemi's error was no worse than Kimi at Monaco in 2008, and yet only one was penalised. Petrov and Massa at Suzuka both had drivers moving in front of them that caused their accidents, but only one was penalised.
DaveEllis Wrote:
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> Lewis is
> shouting and crying on the radio about the team
> chosing the wrong tyres at Albert Park, and he's
> not immature. Really? Come on, standards!
I think people did get angry about Lewis on the radio at Albert Park. I don't know if I posted it here or not, but I thought it was very bad.
Also, people didn't like Alonso complaining on the radio in Valencia and Webber in Monza.
X (@ed24f1)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2010 11:16AM by SchueyFan.
But it would be false to assume that there was not an element of popularity in all of this. Hockenheim this year is a good example. If it was Fernando getting the order to let Felipe past, I think there would have been a lower response.
Stewarding always has been and always will be inconsistent. Buemi's error was no worse than Kimi at Monaco in 2008, and yet only one was penalised. Petrov and Massa at Suzuka both had drivers moving in front of them that caused their accidents, but only one was penalised.
DaveEllis Wrote:
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> Lewis is
> shouting and crying on the radio about the team
> chosing the wrong tyres at Albert Park, and he's
> not immature. Really? Come on, standards!
I think people did get angry about Lewis on the radio at Albert Park. I don't know if I posted it here or not, but I thought it was very bad.
Also, people didn't like Alonso complaining on the radio in Valencia and Webber in Monza.
X (@ed24f1)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2010 11:16AM by SchueyFan.
IMO it's all down to personality. The reason Hamilton and particularly Vettel get so much stick is because they've got it all. Everything has been arranged for them, they have always had drives at top teams (or in Vettels case, knew he was to get one in the foreseeable future). The same for Schumacher. He's always been at a top team, and was either loved or hated (note how he's become more popular now he doesn't have the best car), but would always get more stick than other drivers. Whereas Webber actually climbed a ladder in F1. He's has tonnes of bad luck throughout his carreer and now he's finally in a top team, which has taken him nearly a decade and now he's finally successful. People like such stories and thus that makes Webber a likeable person. Vettel is seen as a spoiled brat who deserves to be put back into his place from time to time and Webber as someone who has dragged himself up from the gutter. So people want Webber to win. And on that basis, Webber and Vettel are judged differently, because people can't be unbiased. This little thing always plays a part in your perception. If you like a person more, you're bound to cut him some slack. (This all doesn't go for the FIA, obviously (well at least I hope so 
))
))I must admit, I am British and I am not Alonso's biggest fan. He seems to be the common denominator for most controversies in F1 (Singapore-Piquet,Spying-Scandal,Hockenheim this year etc).
Also, he could have won the championship quite easily in 2008, but his stubborn attitude and Hamiltons inexperience (or incompetence) let Kimi win.
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Also, he could have won the championship quite easily in 2008, but his stubborn attitude and Hamiltons inexperience (or incompetence) let Kimi win.
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I agree loosely with Nick. Webber did it the old fashioned way, making sacrifices and getting into F1 quite late by current standards, and I think people subconsciously like him for that approach - knowing he's not got all the talent, but that he's a ballsy guy who'll do what he can to use what ability he does have to win. A Mansell sort of driver I suppose - just without the most of the moaning. I also couldn't understand the criticism he got earlier in his career - calling him a qualifying expert and all of that, so I wanted him to succeed just to get some others to STFU.
Vettel and Hamilton had their paths lay down for them. They knew they were getting to F1 and so did their sponsors, mentors and investors. They've plenty of natural ability and we all expect them to win further titles between them. As getting into F1 goes, they (Hamilton in particular) could barely have had it easier.
I like Vettel. He's got a fun character to him compared to the relatively wooden Hamilton and he's always been encouraged to show his natural personality. He's also massive fun to watch (though the driveability of the engine and car helps of course).
The reason I didn't like Hamilton in 2007 was that he was being neutered by McLaren's PR department - there was zero personality but what little character there was wasn't good... then in 2008 it started to become clearer that he was a bit of a twat who just won or moaned. After Melbourne 2009 he changed and he was made to realise things aren't always presented to you on a plate and you have to deal with it sometimes, and he's been a lot easier to like since - the presence of Button seems to have helped him no end too.
As to the first point Dave made, I think it's the nature of the mistakes which are made. On Sunday Webber made a mistake and paid for it (as did Rosberg)*. Vettel at Spa meanwhile made a horrible error of judgement (darting out of a slipstream just as they were braking). While Webber made a mistake you'd expect a rookie to make, Vettel's was one which you'd see in the lower formulae.
* On that note, I stated in the race thread that I didn't like how Webber continued to (or didn't correct) the car steering towards Rosberg. Of course he couldn't do much to slow it down, but after he regained the wheel, he continued to steer across the track as fast as possible. It probably wouldn't have made much difference with only part of one front wheel contacting the ground and both rear wheels steering the car, but you'd expect instinct to try to steer away from the car doing 100mph into the side of you, not towards it.
To be honest, Vettel reminds me of my old GPL driving style around the time I started in VT - everything had to be done with a panache and a flair and I could pull out a hotlap out of nowhere, getting plenty of poles and fastest laps, sliding everywhere, overtaking around the outside of Indianapolis at Le Mans, etc... but I made a lot of mistakes as a result and consequently won far less races than I should have done and I got frustrated at that. OK, so a lot of Vettel's (lack of) conversion rate is down to car issues, but while I can sympathise when he makes a mistake such as Spa, also in the back of my mind I think from my own limited experience "this guy is going to have to learn that sometimes style isn't everything" and I'll comment here on both aspects happily. I calmed down and became a far more rounded driver, and while I certainly hope Vettel doesn't change his style, if he's as bothered by the statistics as some say (he is German after all), then he will have to mature.
Webber generally does accept blame straight away. Vettel lets things linger and then sometimes gives a hint of coming to his senses in the following days. He rarely accepts blame outright, while Webber holds his hands up when he's made a boob.
In terms of the last couple of paragraphs, Hamilton was exactly the same.
In summary really it just shows how good the PR guys are.
I can't explain why one gets penalties get handed out to one while another ought to have a penalty for something else, but it's right that Vettel got one at Spa due to sheer stupidity more than anything. Webber should have had one at Melbourne too (though he was just caught out rather than making a move himself), but other than that, mistakes such as Kimi's at Monaco generally aren't penalised unless you're further down the grid such as Buemi on Sunday... which is terrible.
Sutil on the other hand was a penalty waiting to happen. From the first corner the only bet you needed to place was what lap he got a drive through or binned it. It's like he knows he has a wet weather reputation so tried especially hard to reinforce it. Not wise. It's what we'd expect from our stereotypical Japanese drivers past and present.
Edit: wow, that's even longer than Dave's post!
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2010 12:49PM by gav.
Vettel and Hamilton had their paths lay down for them. They knew they were getting to F1 and so did their sponsors, mentors and investors. They've plenty of natural ability and we all expect them to win further titles between them. As getting into F1 goes, they (Hamilton in particular) could barely have had it easier.
I like Vettel. He's got a fun character to him compared to the relatively wooden Hamilton and he's always been encouraged to show his natural personality. He's also massive fun to watch (though the driveability of the engine and car helps of course).
The reason I didn't like Hamilton in 2007 was that he was being neutered by McLaren's PR department - there was zero personality but what little character there was wasn't good... then in 2008 it started to become clearer that he was a bit of a twat who just won or moaned. After Melbourne 2009 he changed and he was made to realise things aren't always presented to you on a plate and you have to deal with it sometimes, and he's been a lot easier to like since - the presence of Button seems to have helped him no end too.
As to the first point Dave made, I think it's the nature of the mistakes which are made. On Sunday Webber made a mistake and paid for it (as did Rosberg)*. Vettel at Spa meanwhile made a horrible error of judgement (darting out of a slipstream just as they were braking). While Webber made a mistake you'd expect a rookie to make, Vettel's was one which you'd see in the lower formulae.
* On that note, I stated in the race thread that I didn't like how Webber continued to (or didn't correct) the car steering towards Rosberg. Of course he couldn't do much to slow it down, but after he regained the wheel, he continued to steer across the track as fast as possible. It probably wouldn't have made much difference with only part of one front wheel contacting the ground and both rear wheels steering the car, but you'd expect instinct to try to steer away from the car doing 100mph into the side of you, not towards it.
To be honest, Vettel reminds me of my old GPL driving style around the time I started in VT - everything had to be done with a panache and a flair and I could pull out a hotlap out of nowhere, getting plenty of poles and fastest laps, sliding everywhere, overtaking around the outside of Indianapolis at Le Mans, etc... but I made a lot of mistakes as a result and consequently won far less races than I should have done and I got frustrated at that. OK, so a lot of Vettel's (lack of) conversion rate is down to car issues, but while I can sympathise when he makes a mistake such as Spa, also in the back of my mind I think from my own limited experience "this guy is going to have to learn that sometimes style isn't everything" and I'll comment here on both aspects happily. I calmed down and became a far more rounded driver, and while I certainly hope Vettel doesn't change his style, if he's as bothered by the statistics as some say (he is German after all
), then he will have to mature.Webber generally does accept blame straight away. Vettel lets things linger and then sometimes gives a hint of coming to his senses in the following days. He rarely accepts blame outright, while Webber holds his hands up when he's made a boob.
In terms of the last couple of paragraphs, Hamilton was exactly the same.
In summary really it just shows how good the PR guys are.
I can't explain why one gets penalties get handed out to one while another ought to have a penalty for something else, but it's right that Vettel got one at Spa due to sheer stupidity more than anything. Webber should have had one at Melbourne too (though he was just caught out rather than making a move himself), but other than that, mistakes such as Kimi's at Monaco generally aren't penalised unless you're further down the grid such as Buemi on Sunday... which is terrible.
Sutil on the other hand was a penalty waiting to happen. From the first corner the only bet you needed to place was what lap he got a drive through or binned it. It's like he knows he has a wet weather reputation so tried especially hard to reinforce it. Not wise. It's what we'd expect from our stereotypical Japanese drivers past and present.
Edit: wow, that's even longer than Dave's post!
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2010 12:49PM by gav.
MikaHalpinen Wrote:
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> I'd just like to point out that webber crashing
> was my fault. I got impatient, see, and made the
> korean GP thread. The only other one I made this
> year was Valencia. See the link?
Don't make another then!
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> I'd just like to point out that webber crashing
> was my fault. I got impatient, see, and made the
> korean GP thread. The only other one I made this
> year was Valencia. See the link?
Don't make another then!
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