2010 Formula 1™ Spanish GP THREAD **SPOILERS**

DaveEllis Wrote:
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> An action which
> was unrequired in my view.

Yep, it surprised me to see him take the shortcut too, unnecessarily evasive. He probably would've got Lewis if he'd stayed on the racing line and stuck one up the inside into Turn 2.

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marcl Wrote:
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> Is it true that Massa did not use the f duct?

Based on the speed traps, I think he did - unless it stopped working during the race.

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X (@ed24f1)

Vettel has brass balls of a size hitherto unheard of:

from [en.espnf1.com]

Quote

"Sebastian Vettel has revealed he was asked to retire from the Spanish Grand Prix by his team but stayed out on track to finish third.

The Red Bull driver suffered braking difficulties with 15 laps of the Barcelona race still to run, and made a pit stop so the problem could be investigated. Mechanics and engineers noticed damage to a brake disc before sending him back onto the circuit.

"When I got back out the team told me that I should quit the race," Vettel said in an interview with Germany's Auto Motor und Sport. "They said the risk because of the broken brake was too great. I asked them if that [retiring] was really necessary or whether I could just drive slowly and pick up some points. I got no answer. So I drove. In the middle of the last corner I then got the message 'keep going, but be careful', but it was too late anyway. I was already past the pit entry."

Vettel said he managed to finish the race by shifting the brake bias all the way to the rear. Team boss Christian Horner defended the car's reliability record and said that the podium result was proof of how well the situation was managed.

"I think when you are pushing the boundaries, things can happen," said Horner. "But we have to understand what the issue was here - as McLaren has to do with their failure with Lewis [Hamilton]. Ultimately we have got two cars on the podium and were just three points off a maximum score. So I think the team managed the issue with the brakes very well."

Driving a car with maximum rear brake bias? I cannot even imagine trying to control a monster like that. And with all that considered, he lost some 2-3 seconds a lap to MS? I'd be crapping myself...

It is one thing to drive on to the bitter end no matter what, if you are in a sim. But in a car that can is doing 300+ kph, with literally no brakes, in real life? Doing it, despite the recommendations of your teams staff of highly trained engineers, when critical damage has been suggested and verified? Either he is really brave or really stupid... and he does not strike me as stupid!

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

I think Vettel has sometimes the Gilles Villeneuve spirit. Remember Oz 2009, he was trying to finish the race with 3 wheels after he crashed with Kubica!!

EC83 Wrote:
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> The dream scenario for Monaco would involve some
> rain! Ooh... that would really make it an epic. :D

And it looks like there could be

[f1.gpupdate.net]

Btw, some excellent maths in that article; "Of the five Grand Prix so far in 2010, two have been affected by rain - a 20 percent rate"


DaveEllis Wrote:
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> Have RBR said what actually happened to Vettels
> car? I was wondering if it had anything to do with
> him bouncing over the humps in T1 when he decided
> to take a shortcut to avoid Lewis. An action which
> was unrequired in my view.

It was the same brake one, from the same external supplier, Lewis had at Abu Dhabi last year.

It could have been caused by the bump-hopping, but i suppose we will never know for sure.

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X (@ed24f1)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2010 04:29AM by SchueyFan.

LOL, that is pretty awe-inspiring. I sensed that Seb was doing something pretty awesome in the closing stages and dealing with something pretty adverse, and was amazed by how @#$%& fast he was managing to keep going and steaming into the braking areas with mainly just lift and coast to slow him down.
But I didn't know the problems were quite that extreme. Makes his late unexpected reward of a podium position all the more deserving.

Edit: Cool news SchueyFan, that looks promising. And whenever Monaco is held in mid-May or earlier, the chances of rain affecting the race seem to be higher too.

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2010 05:05AM by EC83.

A new Massa silly season rumour: Webber to Ferrari?

[www.jamesallenonf1.com]

It does seem a lot like the aftermath of Malaysia 2008, where there were lots of calls for Massa to be sacked. I don't know why he was out of sorts in Spain, but he does need to, like 2008, turn it around with some good performances in Monaco and Turkey.

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X (@ed24f1)

I'd be surprised if Ferrari were thinking about booting Massa purely from his performances so far this season - he hasn't won yet, but he has been very consistent, and not made any obvious screw-ups yet. The calls for him to be sacked after Malaysia 2008 were absolutely justified, because he'd driven like a @#$%& incompetent moron in the first two races. Since then he's matured and improved a lot, and there's no evidence to suggest he's anything but an improved driver since he recovered from his injury of last summer. So, from that point of view, speculation about him being replaced now seems odd.

However Ferrari have got Alonso now, who's clearly exerting his influence on the team and starting to build them around him, and Ferrari might well feel that with one driver who's proven as being at the very top level, they can evaluate a number of potential options for the seat Massa currently occupies, whereas they couldn't so easily when they had Kimi.
But it does seem like Fernando has made that team his own already, and Felipe is starting to seem almost like an outsider somehow.

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Spot on Morbid. He wasn't even touching the brakes for the most part though. Just a quick dip of them just before turn in. I'd imagine there's a very small window for adjusting the balance though - probably between 65% and 50% or so. Given how little he was using the brakes I'd guess it was a lot easier to manage that if he was downshifting and braking at the same time. I'm certainly not trying to take anything away from that performance though - it was sensational pace and control given the circumstances!

Quote
SchueyFan
It was the same brake one, from the same external supplier, Lewis had at Abu Dhabi last year.

It could have been caused by the bump-hopping, but i suppose we will never know for sure.

Was it the brakes though, or was it that the brakes were damaged due to a loose wheel or dodgy hub or something else? It seems odd that at no point in the race did we see any meaningful dust coming off the car. It looked exactly the same as the problem he had in Melbourne, which was, apparently, due to a loose wheel damaging the brakes.

Vettel is old school style brave. It is the kind of thing Senna and Villeneuve would have done. Meanwhile the rest of the drivers bitch about things whenever something is slightly out of line. From now on, whenever there is a safety issue to be discussed they should just go speak to Vettel and get him to make the decision. Maybe then the drivers will be forced to grow some balls.

Gav, maybe Vettel was LFSing it.

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gav Wrote:
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> Was it the brakes though, or was it that the
> brakes were damaged due to a loose wheel or dodgy
> hub or something else? It seems odd that at no
> point in the race did we see any meaningful dust
> coming off the car. It looked exactly the same as
> the problem he had in Melbourne, which was,
> apparently, due to a loose wheel damaging the
> brakes.

Well that's what Christian Horner told the BBC F1 podcast at least.

Did we see dust coming off Lewis' brakes in Abu Dhabi though?

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X (@ed24f1)

Id say it was no more impressive than Alonso's Malaysia effort...

As Gav said Vettel would have been using engine braking to the max.

An interesting fact, not since 2003, and 1997 have 4 different drivers won the first 5 races. I am sure we will get a different winner this weekend too, Lewis. This season is awesome!

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

Quote
DaveEllis
Gav, maybe Vettel was LFSing it.

:D

gav Wrote:
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> I'd imagine there's a very
> small window for adjusting the balance though -
> probably between 65% and 50% or so.

I can see no situation where a driver under normal circumstances would opt for a 100% rear brake bias. I know for a fact that F1 drivers opt for heavy rear bias these days in the wet (which confuses me, as I would think front bias would be safer). But only a pre-planned contingency consideration would call for a design parameter like a 100-0 range. I find it unlikely that Red Bull has that. 65% sounds very reasonable to me.

> Given how
> little he was using the brakes I'd guess it was a
> lot easier to manage that if he was downshifting
> and braking at the same time.

That is also what I recollect him doing, from what I could see on the TV-overlay.

As to the reason for the failure, I have seen speculations that it could be a loose stone into the brake disc. Barrichello reportedly took pictures of his helmet and battered car after the race with his cell-phone, and the engineers had to slow him down to control a late race vibration. Also Hamilton's puncture is suspected to be a result of a loose stone getting jammed in between the tyre, rim and upright.

DaveEllis Wrote:
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> Vettel is old school style brave. It is the kind
> of thing Senna and Villeneuve would have done.
> Meanwhile the rest of the drivers bitch about
> things whenever something is slightly out of line.

Agreed. Safety is important, but being a pussy is not.

> From now on, whenever there is a safety issue to
> be discussed they should just go speak to Vettel
> and get him to make the decision. Maybe then the
> drivers will be forced to grow some balls.

Or they will still chicken out, and Vettel will take the podiums and points they don't.

chet Wrote:
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> Id say it was no more impressive than Alonso's
> Malaysia effort...

On driver skill, maybe not. I would not know, so I won't be the judge of that. But on balls - it is! Let me illustrate this point.

You are on the Autobahn, rushing with the pedal to the metal, because you have to get to something important ASAP (your wife is dying while giving birth, friend in danger, your house is burning, whatever). The rewards for getting there in time will be great. You hear a noise from your car, and feel it does not operate correctly. You pull in at a service station and get a mechanic to check it for you. Being in a rush, you convince him to call you with his findings and recommendations, and press on.

So at close to 300 kph, your mechanic calls you, and you activate your hands-free device. He relates one of 2 things:

A) You have an engine problem. Changing gears will be very problematic, and might destroy the engine. He tells you that it will be difficult, but you can continue to push it.

B) You have brake damage, and using them could cause an instant failure. He recommends that you pull over at the next exit. When you ask if you can just ease off the brakes and continue anyway, he doesn't answer. You reach the next exit, and decide to push on.

If the engine goes, you can still handle any unsafe situation that might occur (another car wrecking in front of you, a slow car weaving and blocking your path, a couple of stray dogs or a protesting priest running against traffic). But if the brakes explode your only option, in an unsafe situation - assuming you even still have control and hence a choice - is to ditch the car at whatever speed you are going, and pray. We know this for a fact, because we know from experience, that is exactly what drivers do, when they do not have the to option to brake in time.

Thus Alonso suffered no risk to his own well-being, while Vettel did.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2010 02:06PM by Morbid.

DaveEllis Wrote:
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> Vettel is old school style brave. It is the kind
> of thing Senna and Villeneuve would have done.
> Meanwhile the rest of the drivers bitch about
> things whenever something is slightly out of line.
> From now on, whenever there is a safety issue to
> be discussed they should just go speak to Vettel
> and get him to make the decision. Maybe then the
> drivers will be forced to grow some balls.

+1

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I remember USA that year no one was allowed to race, kimi wanted to race and he was also a driver that would have carried on brake problem or no brake problem.

But yes now days all you hear is about bumps in the track. I think Vettel done the right thing but had it been earlier in the race like what happened to lewis at the last race last year I dont think he would have carried on as there would have been no point.

marcl Wrote:
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> I remember USA that year no one was allowed to
> race, kimi wanted to race and he was also a driver
> that would have carried on brake problem or no
> brake problem.
>
> But yes now days all you hear is about bumps in
> the track. I think Vettel done the right thing
> but had it been earlier in the race like what
> happened to lewis at the last race last year I
> dont think he would have carried on as there would
> have been no point.

yep, he had a big advantage to Michael so even driving carefully meant he could keepthose very valuable points

what's scary is that even trying to take it slow, he was still fast, definitely faster than some cars on the track who had no issues at all
how fast is that car??

marcl Wrote:
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> I remember USA that year no one was allowed to
> race, kimi wanted to race and he was also a driver
> that would have carried on brake problem or no
> brake problem.







Edit: found a clip with better quality

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2010 11:59AM by Morbid.

gav Wrote:
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> Apparently Rosberg likes his car similar to MS and
> they said that both drivers have been talking
> together about the best way forward, both before
> and at Barcelona, so while it seemed it was
> hurting Rosberg, maybe his side of the garage just
> weren't as quick to extract the pace from what
> will be a pretty significant change to the
> balance.
>
> You always have to question how fairly a teammate
> of Schumacher is being treated, but then he's
> rarely had a teammate as strong as Rosberg.
> Mercedes would have to be nuts for developing a
> car around a driver with 10 points to the
> detriment of a driver on 50 points and 2nd in the
> championship. It's not going to happen.
>
> More worrying will be how far they've dropped back
> from Red Bull, McLaren and Ferrari.

Interesting comments Gav, I'm glad that Nico's just as happy with the changes to the car. I'm an M.S fan but I like Nico and I'm just fed-up with all the Schumacher biased comments about his team mates not gettinga fair shake, so very interesting piece of information, thanx.


" Perfection is not a gift ....... it comes with practice."

Member of R.S.C.T Group

The F1.com review video for this race is now online - good quality, but it would have been nice to see some more onboards; such as of the Kubica/Kobayashi or Senna crashes for example - maybe they will save that for the DVD.


What they have got is quite an amazing piece of radio when Lewis is telling his team that his tyre is broken, is interrupted by the tyre exploding, and then understandably shouts, "Oh, f**k".

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X (@ed24f1)