Schumacher V's Lewis (Spoiler Alert!) and losing it?

Quote
marcl
I did not say the f duct was not an advantange, its is. But he got close to MS before it would have even take proper effect. And yes I know they can run extra down force etc but if u listen to Button and Lewis the car does not have enough down force. The F duct does not allow the car to accelerate any faster and they have to run longer gears as well to stop it hitting the rev limiter, when its in 6th and 7th gear then yes its faster.

You asked how Schumacher managed to come back at Lewis. I explained. A gaping slipstream is greater than the advantage of the f-duct and always will be, regardless of how efficient it is.

Quote
marcl
So lets get this right if Lewis wins from the front its easy, if he over takes people its due to this that and this.

It is usually relatively easy if you win from the front, unless you pull off a Villeneuve at Jarama or Alonso at Imola or something. The point people are making is that since he entered F1, Lewis has had all the weapons to make winning from behind easier than if he was in any other team. Best engine, then best engine + KERS, then best engine + f-duct. The point being made is just keep it in mind when praising. It's not to detract from him, so much as to praise the team/engine manufacturer as well as or sometimes more than the driver.

Lewis wouldn't have much of a reputation for overtaking if he was in a Renault, as it's never been able to keep up on the straights, or at least not keep up while maintaining a sufficient level of downforce (which restricts the ability to follow of course, making it harder in other ways).

Button only gained a reputation last year due to his strong engine (the same as McLaren of course ) and how balanced his car was on the brakes.

It's all relative and there's always other things to consider.

On the second SC restart, when Lewis was outside Schumacher, the back of Schumacher's car twitches massively when he's trying to put the power down, that's why Lewis ended up on the kerb/grass. He didn't push him out.

Gav sorry none of my post was directed at you. What is bugging me about this f duct thing is some people just seem to think as the mclaren has it they will just blast past people on the straight and this is simply not the case. Yes it helps get close etc but as you say if a car then gets in the slip stream it can get back past.

As I said before you can only compare drivers from the same team driving the car at the same time. We had this with Senna and Prost, Mansell and Prost, Lewis and Alonso. We really do not know how Lewis would go in a Renault or Ferrari or whatever, he could jump in the RBR and be .5 faster than Vettel we just dont know and will never know.

But anyway most people go on about how great MS was. For MS all but 1 of his world championships were won in the best car on the track and even his team mate was not allowed to race him.

So by using this method is MS over rated as well then?

If you watch Lewis pass Vettel and Sutil you will see it was a good move, rather than dive in 3 cars alongside each other he slowed down more than them took a tight line and passed them. Sorry in my view that was a good smart move and a good over taking move.

A driver might have the best car etc but they have to use it to the max.

Anyway moving on



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2010 04:13PM by marcl.

danm Wrote:
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> The gap
> already is big

I agree with most of your post, but I'm not sure about this one - the gap is only 15 points from Button to Vettel, which equates to 6 points in the old system more or less.

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X (@ed24f1)

if a car then gets in the
> slip stream it can get back past.

yes a slip stream is the the biggest asset in achieving an overtake move in f1. and in f1 you can only block once to prevent overtaking, and we saw the true colours of hamilton when he blocked petrov many times in sepang.

gav Wrote:
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> > Button is the only top driver doing a perfect
> job if you ask me.
>
>
> But Button has been hammered in both dry races.
> The only thing saving him has been his 2 decisions
> which have swung his way. His qualifying record is
> very good so far, but in both 'normal' races, he's
> been shown the way, not only by his teammate, but
> by his other title rivals. In my opinion the only
> way Button can carry on and be a title contender
> is if we have half a season of marginal conditions
> or wet weather and his decisions continue to pay
> off.

but Gav, Button made a "bad choice" in Sepang by switching tyres early and keeping them to the end, he looked Slower at the end "obviously" but he was fast at the beggining whilst keeping the tyres, the only "real" dry race hes had in terms of having the same strategy as his teammate, was Bahrain, but he made a bad qualy, something he seems to be doing better in these last races, i wouldn't say he's been hammered yet, we will see a better picture in Spain and Turkey where tyres suffer and most likely we won't have rain as far as qualy goes, he's beaten hamilton fair and square

gav Wrote:
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> > Button only gained a reputation last year due to
> his strong engine (the same as McLaren of course
> ) and how balanced his car was on the brakes.
>
> It's all relative and there's always other things
> to consider.


Jenson's an outbraker (if that's a word), and he's made great races coming from the back sometimes in non competitive cars ie Hockenheim 2005



great outbraking maneuver, not Sato-like, very clean

Jenson doesn't enjoy the reputation he deserves because he's a nice boy, he doesn't open his mouth much, if you know what i mean..

When MS hadnt got a Top-5 car he struggled... Like 2005 or this year. But he had Barrichello in 2005 as teammate and not Rosberg...

He will win, not yet, but in the last part of the season.

Frantic Wrote:
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> When MS hadnt got a Top-5 car he struggled... Like
> 2005 or this year. But he had Barrichello in 2005
> as teammate and not Rosberg...
>
> He will win, not yet, but in the last part of the
> season.

yeah,after 3 years would be stupid to expect him on top since season start.he'll need a bit of time.for this year i don't think he can enter in title fight,but i think that a German will win it anyway

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My GPGSL Career

You really think Red Bull are up to it across a season?

> gav Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > Button only gained a reputation last year due
> to
> > his strong engine (the same as McLaren of
> course
> > ) and how balanced his car was on the
> brakes.
> >

you mean he gained a reputation because he had a great car... hmm sounds a lot like how hamilton gained a reputation.

kubica2 Wrote:
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> > gav Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > > Button only gained a reputation last year
> due
> > to
> > > his strong engine (the same as McLaren of
> > course
> > > ) and how balanced his car was on the
> > brakes.
> > >
>
> you mean he gained a reputation because he had a
> great car... hmm sounds a lot like how hamilton
> gained a reputation.

I'm not being a Hamilton fanboy here, but Hamilton gained a reputation for good driving and winning a world championship in the last corner.

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I'm not being a Hamilton fanboy here, but Hamilton gained a reputation for good driving and winning a world championship in the last corner.

Had nothing to do with Glock fannying about, trying to stay out of the way of the championship battle and accidently deciding it in the process then?

Lewis didn't get a reputation for that. He gained 2 reputations - 1 for being a racer and actually putting effort into racing, and 1 for being an idiot who makes a lot of mistakes at times.

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Gav, and Slash,ive not read any of the previous posts about the Button thing, but by far the best overtake Button has ever made IMO was Brazil 06 on Kimi





This season start has been very up and down so far, only real things we can work out so far, have been that imo Schumachers gonna take time to get upto speed, Alonso IS faster than Massa, and Jenson is a good race driver, and Lewis is epic at overtaking.

Once we get into Europe and we see clean races we should get an idea of where the drivers are at. I dont expect Button to be ahead, but I dont expect him to be that far behind, at all. It will be closer than ever. At Honda/Brawn there were more often than not hundreths between the Rubens and Button, with Button the faster, at Mclaren I tihnk it will be the same ,except Lewis that little bit faster.

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

I prefered his pass at Brazil last year, against...can't remember who. His pass on Kimi was half Kimi being completely asleep. His pass last year was a forceful move against a driver who was properly defending. Was brilliant stuff.

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Quote
DaveEllis
I prefered his pass at Brazil last year, against...can't remember who

Kobayashi?

DaveEllis Wrote:
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> Lewis didn't get a reputation for that. He gained
> 2 reputations - 1 for being a racer and actually
> putting effort into racing, and 1 for being an
> idiot who makes a lot of mistakes at times.

Basically what I was saying, thanks Dave

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Frantic Wrote:
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>




he did a better one against nakajima, although i think that might have been at end of istanbul start straight, i cant remember now, but it was from further back.