Mercedes set to buy into Brawn GP !!

Link of the news: [www.autosport.com]

Gp4world aka: Jcaranti
Racing Generation: Web Admin
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Mercedes-Benz as an integral team like the 50s??

Great news for Brawn's immediate future, if not altogether surprising. Mercedes will have been massively impressed by Brawn's achievements this season, they can't not have been.
And despite what the article says, I wouldn't be surprised if Merc's McLaren partnership eventually takes a back seat to this, especially if Brawn/Mercedes really takes off and becomes consistently successful.

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I wouldn't commit to Brawn for the long haul yet, they've had some pretty serious development issues.

jbnd05 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wouldn't commit to Brawn for the long haul yet,
> they've had some pretty serious development
> issues.

Exactly. Considering the huge improvement McLaren has had in the 2nd half of this year, I think they are a much better bet for 2010 than Brawn.

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X (@ed24f1)

The backbone of Brawn is still the same as Honda - a team which won next to nothing, either in the 60s or since 1999 (when they were BAR).

Of course, many things have changed with Ross Brawn, and the workflow streamlined since Honda left, which might well help them, but given how topsy-turvy the grid has been this season, I doubt many expect them to be at the top next season or in subsequent seasons. They had a jump-start on the rest of the field and made a far better job of the regulations than other teams - but there's nothing to say they won't start reverting to form in 2010 and slowly start slipping into the midfield.

I think most want these smaller teams to take it to the McLarens and Ferraris for the long-run, but I doubt many expect them to.

Then again, I was spectacularly wrong about how they'd go early in the season, so perhaps I'm just once more being overly cautious.

Look at the problems Brawn are having with tyres and look at the problems Honda had, they can not get heat into them.

Also the current Brawn car is probably the most expensive f1 project ever. From what we read 3 cars were made and tested in the wind tunnels, this one was found to work.

They no longer have the budget for this, and have had problems developing this years car.

I fully expect next year for teams like Mclaren and Ferrari to get it right with RBR. Brawn will be back looking at 6th and 7th maybe even lower. I hope I am wrong but this year is just different from other years. I agree with Gav really.

I hope I am wrong but I dont see it tbh, they got lucky this year and had a great start.

Plus had the diffuser been found illegal where would they be then?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/08/2009 06:45PM by marcl.

I think we're assuming a little much here. Mercedes are not committing to Brawn like Mclaren.

I highly doubt Mercedes will plug in for 40% like with Mclaren.

This could simply be a way of ensuring they will get Mercedes engine next year and also maybe Williams or RedBull... Essentially Mercedes will not be supplying another team (Brawn) because Brawn WILL be Merecedes, so sidetracking the amount of teams you could supply engines too if you get me?

The other reason I think may be Rosberg. Haug is said he'd be fond of a German driver driving a competitve car, and that could be Brawn. Nico or Lewis, or rumour has it, Lewis's father does not like the idea of Nico against Lewis. This could be a way pleasing German fans and satisfying Nico with apparently a better car than Williams next year.

Brawn had the quickest car in Valencia, by a good margine. They have no issues with development. Rubens was quick at Spa... 7th was not representative. Development issues? Pah, setup up issues has been determined as the cause of their problems.

As for Mclaren, I said before, it was only logical they would return to form. Brawn found time where others had yet to find, and so when they did find it, it was logical there would be huge gains in performance. This was well known pre-season. Everyone knew Mclaren would be back before the end. The test for Brawn however is next year. There is no reason to suggest they cant build a quick car. Brawn have the budget for this year and beyond. Any speculation of otherwise is plain BS. Having a jump start on 09 made little difference. KERS was really the main killer, as BMW who abandoned a champ charge for 09 and KERS.

As I said, next year is the test. Top teams have come and gone, Renault have fallen to being utter crap, this year they have shown little improvment. The team now is not the same team as in 03/04/05/06/07. Many many changes have come. The team recognize they will not be in the same posistion next year, to do so will be very lucky but theres no reason whatsoever they can not build a quick car again.

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

Brawn had a head start of a year. And they've lost that year in half a year. Conclusion: they can't keep up. They had the money while they were developing the car, but they won't have that amount of money for next years car. This years car was paid for by Honda, Brawn doesn't have that kind of money.

Nickv Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Brawn had a head start of a year. And they've lost
> that year in half a year. Conclusion: they can't
> keep up.

Nick, dont be so blind. You know full well that it is not as simple as that.

Brawn had an addvantage early on, that is a fact. But, put simply because I dont want to ramble, they had found performance gains other teams were yet to find, and when the other teams did find these gains it was only natural for them to catch up.

A perfect example.

Look at Brawn's front wing and endplate design in Australia. Compare it to the other teams. On the most part it looks lightyears ahead.

Now go and look at Force India's front wing and endplates from Aus, and then look at them at Spa and compare it with Brawn's from Spa. Huge huge difference from Aus to Spa. I chose that area of the car because bar the diffuser, the front wing assembly seems to have had the most attention from alot of teams this year.

Again, put simply. There is only so much time you can find from a car/concept before it becomes either a new car or new aero/mech concept.

When a new regulation change such as the change from 08 to 09 happens even a 5 year old will realze the biggest gains will come much early on when still learning. Take a graph which rises quickly then dampens out to a steady state, a straight line. Take that graph as performance gain is along y axis and time at the bottom. Brawn are at the point where it dampens out. Without changing the car drastically performance gains are relativley small to say what other teams.

This is not that they have not kept up at all Nick. It is simply a function of starting early so finishing before. This was expected by all, Button, and Brawn perhaps realized it the most. To think they have fallen back is quite simply wrong. Maybe they've dropped a little, but its been a case of the others findind the same performance Brawn found, but later on. Brawn are at a stage where big gains are harder to find, I guess so are most of the teams, but mid-season there was alot of time to be found from the others.


>They had the money while they were
> developing the car, but they won't have that
> amount of money for next years car. This years car
> was paid for by Honda, Brawn doesn't have that
> kind of money.

How many times does Brawn and Nick have to say they have the funds for this year, they recently came into the TV money from last yeaar which was held back because of the concord. Nick also announced money for the next 3 years, and you can only assume it being a good amount thanks to their posistion. Besides that whats money in F1?

Renault are nowhere, and they've spent a record amount on their F1 program I believe.

Toyota, nowhere with all the money in the world.

Force India? 2nd at Spa with 2nd quickest car on track, probably less than halve the funds of the rest.

Money? pfft

Also, dont forget BMW who stopped their championship challenge to get a head-start on this year. Again, nowhere.

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

It's OK having the money for x number of years Chet, but how much do they have? GPG members could probably design and build a racing car among us, and then we're left with funding the transport and other essential ancillary costs, but it would be rubbish. Of course, as you say, money isn't everything - it's far from it - but the raw fact of the matter is that many tens of millions were poured into that car, and countless resources, and they're unlikely to have a fraction of that money for the upcoming seasons.

No-one thinks Brawn will suddenly disappear back to the bottom 3rd of the grid, but it will be interesting to see where they are in relation to the front-runners in 3-5 years.

Personally, my own uneducated guess is that they'll be capable of podiums in 2010 but more than a single victory is unlikely.

chet schreef:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nickv Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Brawn had a head start of a year. And they've
> lost
> > that year in half a year. Conclusion: they
> can't
> > keep up.
>
> Nick, dont be so blind. You know full well that it
> is not as simple as that.
>
> Brawn had an addvantage early on, that is a fact.
> But, put simply because I dont want to ramble,
> they had found performance gains other teams were
> yet to find, and when the other teams did find
> these gains it was only natural for them to catch
> up.
>
> A perfect example.
>
> Look at Brawn's front wing and endplate design in
> Australia. Compare it to the other teams. On the
> most part it looks lightyears ahead.
>
> Now go and look at Force India's front wing and
> endplates from Aus, and then look at them at Spa
> and compare it with Brawn's from Spa. Huge huge
> difference from Aus to Spa. I chose that area of
> the car because bar the diffuser, the front wing
> assembly seems to have had the most attention from
> alot of teams this year.
>
> Again, put simply. There is only so much time you
> can find from a car/concept before it becomes
> either a new car or new aero/mech concept.
>
> When a new regulation change such as the change
> from 08 to 09 happens even a 5 year old will
> realze the biggest gains will come much early on
> when still learning. Take a graph which rises
> quickly then dampens out to a steady state, a
> straight line. Take that graph as performance gain
> is along y axis and time at the bottom. Brawn are
> at the point where it dampens out. Without
> changing the car drastically performance gains are
> relativley small to say what other teams.
>
> This is not that they have not kept up at all
> Nick. It is simply a function of starting early so
> finishing before. This was expected by all,
> Button, and Brawn perhaps realized it the most. To
> think they have fallen back is quite simply wrong.
> Maybe they've dropped a little, but its been a
> case of the others findind the same performance
> Brawn found, but later on. Brawn are at a stage
> where big gains are harder to find, I guess so are
> most of the teams, but mid-season there was alot
> of time to be found from the others.
>

OK, it was a bit short sighted, but does illustrate my point. They can't keep up with their limited budget. To keep things easy, assume that everything other teams copied from the Brawn have the exact same benefit on their car as on the Brawn.

Let's assume that Brawn had the best front wing and the best diffuser. Imagine the benefits of the Brawns were numbers:

Front wing: 5
Diffuser: 10
------------------
Total benefit: 15

Other teams (McLaren, Ferrari, RedBull) were behind.

Let's take RedBull as an example and rate their parts too:

Front wing 3
Diffuser 3
----------------
Total benefit: 6

So Brawn were 9 in front of RedBull. RedBull have overtaken Brawn now. So let's assume their parts rate 20 now. A jump of 14. Nine of those were straightly copied from the Brawn. The remaining 5 are won by quicker development by RedBull.

The same goes for McLaren and Ferrari. They can develop faster and that's mainly due to a bigger budget.

As for this graph, you say that Brawn are being overtaken because their graph goes straight earlier on. RedBulls graph is still raising. That means that RedBull had a steeper graph, otherwise they could never overtake Brawn, which means a higher pace of development.

>
> >They had the money while they were
> > developing the car, but they won't have that
> > amount of money for next years car. This years
> car
> > was paid for by Honda, Brawn doesn't have that
> > kind of money.
>
> How many times does Brawn and Nick have to say
> they have the funds for this year, they recently
> came into the TV money from last yeaar which was
> held back because of the concord. Nick also
> announced money for the next 3 years, and you can
> only assume it being a good amount thanks to their
> posistion. Besides that whats money in F1?
>
> Renault are nowhere, and they've spent a record
> amount on their F1 program I believe.
>
> Toyota, nowhere with all the money in the world.
>
> Force India? 2nd at Spa with 2nd quickest car on
> track, probably less than halve the funds of the
> rest.
>
> Money? pfft
>
> Also, dont forget BMW who stopped their
> championship challenge to get a head-start on this
> year. Again, nowhere.

That Fry says that they have funds for three years does not mean that they have the same amount of funds that they have now. I personally think that they won't have the same funds next year and beyond.

When rules change, you have the biggest chance of getting to the front. Renault, for example, have gone completely wrong on the base of their car it seems. You can't change the base of your car in the middle of the season, no matter how much money you have. I expect them to be a lot more near the front next year.
Because the field is so close, when your car is very suited to a track, the advantage will look bigger in positions, while it's still the same amount of time. I think FI will fall back after Monza again. Then it's done with the high speed tracks and their advantage will be gone.

And Toyota, well yes, they've always been a mess :P

So Brawn were 9 in front of RedBull. RedBull have overtaken Brawn now. So let's assume their parts rate 20 now. A jump of 14. Nine of those were straightly copied from the Brawn. The remaining 5 are won by quicker development by RedBull.

The same goes for McLaren and Ferrari. They can develop faster and that's mainly due to a bigger budget.

As for this graph, you say that Brawn are being overtaken because their graph goes straight earlier on. RedBulls graph is still raising. That means that RedBull had a steeper graph, otherwise they could never overtake Brawn, which means a higher pace of development.

As Vettel showed in Aus, RedBull were never that far behind.

In pre-season testing, RedBull showed quick from the word go and were always quick. Vettel was favourite for the title before Brawn turned up.

RedBull and Brawn since early season have been close. The difference at the start was Jenson and Brawn got the job done. RedBull and Vettel did not.

Mclaren and Ferrari have developed quicker as it were, because they have more time to find in the first place. Brawn had no money issues this year, or development issues, that simply has not been the case. They have bought as many parts as RedBull to the races. The win in Valencia showed they have been keeping up. It is more a case of Mclaren and Ferrari catching up because there was time to be had.

Over the last few races RedBull have not really shown to be in a much better posistion than Brawn. Since Hungary really. To me it simply looks like both RedBull and Brawn are pretty much as they were in Aus in terms of relative posistions to each other, with RedBull having a slight advantage maybe, but it really is track dependent.

I am under no illusion that Brawn still rules, because thats the case. But I do not believe for 1 second they have no fallen behind Mclaren and Ferrari, and have been developing slower. To me it just is logical that given Ferrari and Mclarens pace at the start, they would eventually make that up and get to the level ground RBR and Brawn.

When rules change, you have the biggest chance of getting to the front. Renault, for example, have gone completely wrong on the base of their car it seems. You can't change the base of your car in the middle of the season, no matter how much money you have. I expect them to be a lot more near the front next year.
Because the field is so close, when your car is very suited to a track, the advantage will look bigger in positions, while it's still the same amount of time. I think FI will fall back after Monza again. Then it's done with the high speed tracks and their advantage will be gone.

Renault have been at a loss since 2007. This year is perhaps worse than last year! In 2007, 2008, and this year they have showed NO signs whatsoever that they are capable of providing a winning car over a season. If Renault next year are at the front I will take Gav's d*ck cast and well... you know the rest ! Without Alonso they are doomed.

On the budget. Teams are limited to £100mil next year, then £50mil the year after I believe, so no we will not see Honda or Renault figures again.

---

"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

Nick explains it pretty well TBH. Brawn benefitted massively from the biggest change in the regs for many years, which required everybody to start with a blank new sheet of paper. Because of this, (a) they could manage the normally detrimental upheaval of the buy-out and changeover from Honda, and (b) they were sure not to be bothered early in the season by the grandee teams like Ferrari and McLaren, whose development for 2009 had been delayed by having to put all their efforts into the 2008 campaign right up to the end.

So yeah, Brawn had a unique opportunity this year to make a great start to the season, and with the budget they have they were always going to start slipping backwards once the opposition got a chance to develop their cars.

---

Quick point about Renault: I personally think they'll be nowhere next year. Much of their 2005 and 2006 campaigns are due to Michelin. From what I heard at the time, the suspension of the car was actually designed by Michelin.

Joe_Satriani Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Quick point about Renault: I personally think
> they'll be nowhere next year. Much of their 2005
> and 2006 campaigns are due to Michelin. From what
> I heard at the time, the suspension of the car was
> actually designed by Michelin.


Apart from a flukey win in Singapore, and a great win in Japan last year, Renault have been no-where for the past 2 also.

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2013 - Nando must come through..

[www.autosport.com]

I guess doesnt aid me a great deal, but the same point applies... Except he mentions over years, and I used the one season as an example ! Still, same logic !

edit - just a question to anyone...

Are the engine regulations due to stay the same for the next 3 years??

I thought F1 was going to introduce much smaller engines? if that's the case then right now a Mercedes to buy into Brawn would be a good thing whilst Mercedes arguably have the best engine, but what about the future? It's only really recently the Mercedes engine has been great, before Ferrari was king, and the Mercedes was underpowered and unreliable.

---

"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2009 02:14PM by chet.

Joe_Satriani Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Quick point about Renault: I personally think
> they'll be nowhere next year. Much of their 2005
> and 2006 campaigns are due to Michelin. From what
> I heard at the time, the suspension of the car was
> actually designed by Michelin.


From what I saw a few years back on tv from a Renault guy, they had Michelin work with them to build their suspension since 2002.

On the Brawn thing, sure they finish the year not as strong as their opponents but remember Renault-McLaren in 2005? Budgets aside, Renault was up there in 2006. I believe Brawn will maintain a good level of their car though I'm skeptic regarding their conservative aproach to sponsors which I expect to not allow them to develop their car as fast if something needs tweaking.

Despite Button being nowhere since the other teams leapfrogged - showing he's been cracking big time under pressure - I still believe he will get the title as much as I'd love to see Rubens make a comeback from his disappointing first 7 rounds.

Whats their conservative approach to sponsors?

They have secured title sponsorship and funding for the next 3 years.

We ahvent seen much on the car because the time wanted that long-term deal rather than a reasons deal.This isnt for fun, they want this team to succeed, and that takes time, sponsorship takes time. Besides that nothing could have been set in concrete until the sport had a future.

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

[en.f1-live.com]

Imo not a wise decision. The one constant of the debate we're having is that we can always assume that Mclaren will bounce back from the doldrums. So why take the risk of Brawn? Especially when Mercedes and Mclaren have had such a long relationship that's yielded good results.