The Official German Grand Prix ***SPOILERS***
Posted by Frantic
gav Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> chet Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > There is no evidence to suggest they are
> favouring
> > one driver over another like.
>
> Care to explain why the final stop they left the
> rear of Barrichello's car up in the air after all
> the tyres were changed, while on Button's (like
> every other stop they made that afternoon) was
> plonked back on the track as soon the guns were
> off?
>
Not seen that yet but looking at the pitstop times Barachellos was still quicker...
>
> chet Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Gav, I am all for Rubens fighting for what he
> > thinks is right or wrong, however his words on
> > live tv was just bad. Those 400 odd people at
> the
> > factory working their arses off to win this
> > championship I can imagine will not be pleased
> > with what he said.
>
> They all know his words weren't directed at them.
> It's got nothing to do with the car.
>
For the team to still here such words cant be a good thing. We've always said team means team. When Barachello said the team made me lose (or whatever it was!) the people at the factory did not just think, "ah must have meant the fuel-rig, the mechanics, but not me!"
>
> I'm not complaining about the rest of the race,
> and I don't really think he is either... just with
> the final pit-stop approaching, there were a few
> odd occurrences. Not for the first time this
> season. And they only seem to be happening when
> Rubens is just ahead of or in a direct battle with
> Button.
>
What other odd occurances have there been other than the Spanish GP? Both drivers have had issues at the pitstops, they happen, its fact, its racing. The mechanics are only human, the chance for error is a very big one.
> Still too early to say it's much more than a
> coincidence, but these odd things aren't happening
> to Button (things that couldn't be constituted as
> a mistake, such as his own slightly slower final
> stop).
His final stop, according to F1.com was quicker than Buttons depsite Button needing one lap less of fuel. I see no issue there. As for the fuel rig, statistically speaking there was an equal chance of Button having a fuel rig problem as there was Rubens (well any of the drivers), like I said, its a random occurance, unpredictable, and this time it happened to Rubens, it was just amazing how quickly they reacted to get him out with least time lost.
I like Rubens alot, ive always thought he seems one of the more approachable drivers, one of the more friendly, he's good to his fans. However angry or not his words should have been said behind closed doors, true or false? He based his assumptions with only the slightest of knowledge, like we said his radio was in the best operating order so was unaware alot of the time.
edit - key points.
he is not claiming they are favouring Jenson, and, the big one imo, "I dont want to understand"
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2009 03:43PM by chet.
-------------------------------------------------------
> chet Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > There is no evidence to suggest they are
> favouring
> > one driver over another like.
>
> Care to explain why the final stop they left the
> rear of Barrichello's car up in the air after all
> the tyres were changed, while on Button's (like
> every other stop they made that afternoon) was
> plonked back on the track as soon the guns were
> off?
>
Not seen that yet but looking at the pitstop times Barachellos was still quicker...
>
> chet Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Gav, I am all for Rubens fighting for what he
> > thinks is right or wrong, however his words on
> > live tv was just bad. Those 400 odd people at
> the
> > factory working their arses off to win this
> > championship I can imagine will not be pleased
> > with what he said.
>
> They all know his words weren't directed at them.
> It's got nothing to do with the car.
>
For the team to still here such words cant be a good thing. We've always said team means team. When Barachello said the team made me lose (or whatever it was!) the people at the factory did not just think, "ah must have meant the fuel-rig, the mechanics, but not me!"
>
> I'm not complaining about the rest of the race,
> and I don't really think he is either... just with
> the final pit-stop approaching, there were a few
> odd occurrences. Not for the first time this
> season. And they only seem to be happening when
> Rubens is just ahead of or in a direct battle with
> Button.
>
What other odd occurances have there been other than the Spanish GP? Both drivers have had issues at the pitstops, they happen, its fact, its racing. The mechanics are only human, the chance for error is a very big one.
> Still too early to say it's much more than a
> coincidence, but these odd things aren't happening
> to Button (things that couldn't be constituted as
> a mistake, such as his own slightly slower final
> stop).
His final stop, according to F1.com was quicker than Buttons depsite Button needing one lap less of fuel. I see no issue there. As for the fuel rig, statistically speaking there was an equal chance of Button having a fuel rig problem as there was Rubens (well any of the drivers), like I said, its a random occurance, unpredictable, and this time it happened to Rubens, it was just amazing how quickly they reacted to get him out with least time lost.
I like Rubens alot, ive always thought he seems one of the more approachable drivers, one of the more friendly, he's good to his fans. However angry or not his words should have been said behind closed doors, true or false? He based his assumptions with only the slightest of knowledge, like we said his radio was in the best operating order so was unaware alot of the time.
edit - key points.
he is not claiming they are favouring Jenson, and, the big one imo, "I dont want to understand"
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2009 03:43PM by chet.
chet Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not seen that yet but looking at the pitstop times
> Barachellos was still quicker...
Button's was slower because they struggled with the right-front.
That's not the point though. Had they not, from the looks of it, artificially added 0.5-1 second to Barrichello's stop, he'd have been, at the very worst, alongside or challenging Button into turn 1.
chet Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For the team to still here such words cant be a
> good thing. We've always said team means team.
> When Barachello said the team made me lose (or
> whatever it was!) the people at the factory did
> not just think, "ah must have meant the fuel-rig,
> the mechanics, but not me!"
I disagree with that. They're human beings, not idiots. It will have hurt the strategy guys, if they are, as you say, not botching or manipulating his race. The non-strategy guys, if they feel affected, will be Darwinised soon enough.
chet Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What other odd occurances have there been other
> than the Spanish GP?
As you say, he pitted later than Button on both previous stops, yet sooner on the final one? Hmmm. Was the 2nd refueller just guessing how much fuel was going in?
These incidents are only happening when Rubens is ahead of Button, or when they're directly racing each other.
So Mr. Brawn GP fan, at what point do you stop believing they are coincidence?
chet Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> he is not claiming they are favouring Jenson, and,
> the big one imo, "I dont want to understand"
Yeah, he wasn't going to accuse them of that one. He stopped short. You could see him restraining himself, like he'd already gone too far. He just said they botched his race, but it's fairly obvious what he meant. He knew he wasn't going to win before the 1st round of stops.
For the record, I'm not necessarily accusing them myself - just trying to see what he appears to be feeling. I do think there is a clear number 1 in the team, but but if the team strategy is going to be favouring Button, before or during the race, then Rubens deserves to know if they're going to start trying to manipulate his teammate past him.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not seen that yet but looking at the pitstop times
> Barachellos was still quicker...
Button's was slower because they struggled with the right-front.
That's not the point though. Had they not, from the looks of it, artificially added 0.5-1 second to Barrichello's stop, he'd have been, at the very worst, alongside or challenging Button into turn 1.
chet Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For the team to still here such words cant be a
> good thing. We've always said team means team.
> When Barachello said the team made me lose (or
> whatever it was!) the people at the factory did
> not just think, "ah must have meant the fuel-rig,
> the mechanics, but not me!"
I disagree with that. They're human beings, not idiots. It will have hurt the strategy guys, if they are, as you say, not botching or manipulating his race. The non-strategy guys, if they feel affected, will be Darwinised soon enough.
chet Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What other odd occurances have there been other
> than the Spanish GP?
As you say, he pitted later than Button on both previous stops, yet sooner on the final one? Hmmm. Was the 2nd refueller just guessing how much fuel was going in?
These incidents are only happening when Rubens is ahead of Button, or when they're directly racing each other.
So Mr. Brawn GP fan, at what point do you stop believing they are coincidence?
chet Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> he is not claiming they are favouring Jenson, and,
> the big one imo, "I dont want to understand"
Yeah, he wasn't going to accuse them of that one. He stopped short. You could see him restraining himself, like he'd already gone too far. He just said they botched his race, but it's fairly obvious what he meant. He knew he wasn't going to win before the 1st round of stops.
For the record, I'm not necessarily accusing them myself - just trying to see what he appears to be feeling. I do think there is a clear number 1 in the team, but but if the team strategy is going to be favouring Button, before or during the race, then Rubens deserves to know if they're going to start trying to manipulate his teammate past him.
Gav, I think you're spot on regarding Rubens. Comments as strong as his can't just be passed off as moaning, they're way too passionate, and no way would Rubens speak that strongly if he was only feeling hard done by. Seems to me he's not to be being allowed any say in what strategy he runs; Brawn's apparent insistance on running 3-stoppers hurt his race badly this time. Why he wasn't swerved onto a 2-stopper after his strong first stint is just plain baffling.
Webber's penalty was fair IMO. You can't just go changing direction on a straight piece of track, resulting in contact with other cars, and not get some kind of penalty for it. I believe Mark's comment in the press conference when he said it wasn't intentional, and his comment about it being an out of character piece of driving on his part makes sense too. So, fair dos.
By the way I was a bit surprised by DC's comment during the race when he said he thought there hadn't been any contact. What was the big black mark on Rubens' sidepod due to then?! Duh?
Regarding the Kimi/Sutil incident, on reflection it was really a racing incident, but if there was a definite cause it was Sutil understeering into Kimi. Kimi had every reason to be there on his outside as they were racing for position.
Webber's penalty was fair IMO. You can't just go changing direction on a straight piece of track, resulting in contact with other cars, and not get some kind of penalty for it. I believe Mark's comment in the press conference when he said it wasn't intentional, and his comment about it being an out of character piece of driving on his part makes sense too. So, fair dos.
By the way I was a bit surprised by DC's comment during the race when he said he thought there hadn't been any contact. What was the big black mark on Rubens' sidepod due to then?! Duh?
Regarding the Kimi/Sutil incident, on reflection it was really a racing incident, but if there was a definite cause it was Sutil understeering into Kimi. Kimi had every reason to be there on his outside as they were racing for position.
EC83 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why he wasn't
> swerved onto a 2-stopper after his strong first
> stint is just plain baffling.
i thought that at the time as well, but with the tyre graining they had, he probably would have been very slow at the end of each stint
X (@ed24f1)
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why he wasn't
> swerved onto a 2-stopper after his strong first
> stint is just plain baffling.
i thought that at the time as well, but with the tyre graining they had, he probably would have been very slow at the end of each stint
X (@ed24f1)
As you say, he pitted later than Button on both previous stops, yet sooner on the final one? Hmmm. Was the 2nd refueller just guessing how much fuel was going in?
These incidents are only happening when Rubens is ahead of Button, or when they're directly racing each other.
Incidents, there have been two occasions where the team has been accused, 2 shady incidents at best, hardly enough to start assuming things.[/i]
When it came to the stops it was clear Jenson was quicker... It is very possible to think that he used his head and saved fuel, these racing drivers are often quite crafty beings! Let's not forget each side of the garage is racing each other, JB's side most likley encouraged him to try save at least 1 more lap to try jump Rubens, and he did.
Whilst tucked up behind Kova JB probably also saved fuel, and it added so when it came to the final stop he had one extra lap. Rubens on the other hand spent alot of time in clear air trying to maximise his posistion.
We have often had cases of the secondary rig wrong fuelling cars have we not? Sometimes more, sometimes less. These rigs as we all know are not perfect, for example for some reason Nico had 15kg extra when he went out for his Quali lap.
I will stop believing when I hear on the radio to Rubens, "Let Jenson past". Or "You are faster than Jenson, but dont overtake no racing."
Or even perhaps when the case is that there is undoubtable evidence of favouring a driver, and not down to mistakes/errors controlled or not. Or again like Mclaren and Renault this weekend, they gave updates to Lewis and Alonso, if there comes a time of Brawn doing such a thing, giving developments to Jenson before Rubens, then yes I will agree about favouritism.
Dont get me wrong, I fully 100% believe Ross is just waiting for the time when he can say to Rubens, "its time to play the team game". But other than a few mistakes I can see no real evidence to suggest any favouring, just bad luck. Silverstone proved Rubens has what it takes to beat Jenson fair and square, but on Sunday he did not have the pace when it mattered whereas Jenson did. Pure and simple facts. Rubens today has said he is over what happened and okay about it. And Brawn and Jenson should hope so becasue they need him more than he needs them!
Brawn did not 2stop because they calculated it would have been worse, and going by the state of the tyres it was the right decision.
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
These incidents are only happening when Rubens is ahead of Button, or when they're directly racing each other.
Incidents, there have been two occasions where the team has been accused, 2 shady incidents at best, hardly enough to start assuming things.[/i]
When it came to the stops it was clear Jenson was quicker... It is very possible to think that he used his head and saved fuel, these racing drivers are often quite crafty beings
! Let's not forget each side of the garage is racing each other, JB's side most likley encouraged him to try save at least 1 more lap to try jump Rubens, and he did.Whilst tucked up behind Kova JB probably also saved fuel, and it added so when it came to the final stop he had one extra lap. Rubens on the other hand spent alot of time in clear air trying to maximise his posistion.
We have often had cases of the secondary rig wrong fuelling cars have we not? Sometimes more, sometimes less. These rigs as we all know are not perfect, for example for some reason Nico had 15kg extra when he went out for his Quali lap.
I will stop believing when I hear on the radio to Rubens, "Let Jenson past". Or "You are faster than Jenson, but dont overtake no racing."
Or even perhaps when the case is that there is undoubtable evidence of favouring a driver, and not down to mistakes/errors controlled or not. Or again like Mclaren and Renault this weekend, they gave updates to Lewis and Alonso, if there comes a time of Brawn doing such a thing, giving developments to Jenson before Rubens, then yes I will agree about favouritism.
Dont get me wrong, I fully 100% believe Ross is just waiting for the time when he can say to Rubens, "its time to play the team game". But other than a few mistakes I can see no real evidence to suggest any favouring, just bad luck. Silverstone proved Rubens has what it takes to beat Jenson fair and square, but on Sunday he did not have the pace when it mattered whereas Jenson did. Pure and simple facts. Rubens today has said he is over what happened and okay about it. And Brawn and Jenson should hope so becasue they need him more than he needs them!
Brawn did not 2stop because they calculated it would have been worse, and going by the state of the tyres it was the right decision.
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
I still thought there was massive graining... I cant remember the slow mo's but I thought it was both tyres they had issues... Graining on the rear but understeer at the front.
It seemed to me that funnily enough it was the rise in temperature that offset them, it seemed their car was just about decent enough for the saturday temperatures but again everything went wrong for Sunday.
What is rather good to note is that the car did not have the planned updates I believe, so the car was still as it was in Silverstone. In FP they did try some new things but I dont think they were used for Saturday, or Sunday.
I was looking through the calender at the next races. In theory RedBull should be stronger at Spa and Suzuka. But what about Monza?? The Merc engine is good, and the Brawn is fantastic under braking...
btw, who else is thinking of placing a bet for a Lewis win at Hungary? I think I will!
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
It seemed to me that funnily enough it was the rise in temperature that offset them, it seemed their car was just about decent enough for the saturday temperatures but again everything went wrong for Sunday.
What is rather good to note is that the car did not have the planned updates I believe, so the car was still as it was in Silverstone. In FP they did try some new things but I dont think they were used for Saturday, or Sunday.
I was looking through the calender at the next races. In theory RedBull should be stronger at Spa and Suzuka. But what about Monza?? The Merc engine is good, and the Brawn is fantastic under braking...
btw, who else is thinking of placing a bet for a Lewis win at Hungary? I think I will
!"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
Yeah, the start was incredible (the puncture less so 
)
)gav Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They'd have been fine on the hard tyres. They were
> struggling to get them up to temperature, but they
> were far more consistent.
>
> Given the gap back to the chasing pack, and
> Webber's penalty, you'd have thought they'd have
> gone the conservative route, rather than
> inevitably falling back behind faster cars.
That's what I was thinking.
Qualifying light would be the best way I think, get the softs out of the way in a short first stint, then do two longer stints on the hards. That way Rubens would've avoided the Massa problem altogether, and could've finished as high as 2nd.
Edit: Good point SchueyFan, but the graining only happened on the softs?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2009 09:40PM by EC83.
-------------------------------------------------------
> They'd have been fine on the hard tyres. They were
> struggling to get them up to temperature, but they
> were far more consistent.
>
> Given the gap back to the chasing pack, and
> Webber's penalty, you'd have thought they'd have
> gone the conservative route, rather than
> inevitably falling back behind faster cars.
That's what I was thinking.
Qualifying light would be the best way I think, get the softs out of the way in a short first stint, then do two longer stints on the hards. That way Rubens would've avoided the Massa problem altogether, and could've finished as high as 2nd.
Edit: Good point SchueyFan, but the graining only happened on the softs?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2009 09:40PM by EC83.
Taamaar Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i do remember a time silverstone gp can`t rem
> which year where shuey got a stop and go penalty
> and he took that on the end of his last lap thus
> winning the race in the pitlane
Silverstone 98. He passed Wurz with yellow flag, and FIA gave him (too late) a penalty, and while he was doing the 10 seconds stop and go, he won the race :P I think its the only GP since 1950 that was won in a pitlane
-------------------------------------------------------
> i do remember a time silverstone gp can`t rem
> which year where shuey got a stop and go penalty
> and he took that on the end of his last lap thus
> winning the race in the pitlane
Silverstone 98. He passed Wurz with yellow flag, and FIA gave him (too late) a penalty, and while he was doing the 10 seconds stop and go, he won the race :P I think its the only GP since 1950 that was won in a pitlane
DaveEllis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's a race I have a major problem with, because
> it wasn't legal. He never took the penalty. The SF
> line was before the pit lane, so he won the race
> before it was taken.
I thought it was a brilliant piece of thinking at the time as I was an MS fan, but these days I totally agree with you. It was really just a farce, and he shouldn't have been allowed to keep that win.
He even did an extra lap at fully racing speed after he'd completed the race distance, probably just to make the "penalty" look legit. When he crossed the line at the end of it Murray thought it was Irvine finishing 3rd. :P
And Frantic, the penalty was for passing Wurz under SC conditions rather than under yellow flags IIRC.
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's a race I have a major problem with, because
> it wasn't legal. He never took the penalty. The SF
> line was before the pit lane, so he won the race
> before it was taken.
I thought it was a brilliant piece of thinking at the time as I was an MS fan, but these days I totally agree with you. It was really just a farce, and he shouldn't have been allowed to keep that win.
He even did an extra lap at fully racing speed after he'd completed the race distance, probably just to make the "penalty" look legit. When he crossed the line at the end of it Murray thought it was Irvine finishing 3rd. :P
And Frantic, the penalty was for passing Wurz under SC conditions rather than under yellow flags IIRC.
Nope, it was a yellow flag overtaking manower he was punished for. aafter that MS explained that in those awful conditions it's difficult to see the car ahed, what about seeing a yellow flag while driving 250 km\h. (even more because he ovetoke wurz on the end of the START\ FINISH line.
cheers
cheers
yeah you re right... I had to ask my dad because in 1998 I was... 4 years old! 
Adrian Sutil - the new Mark Webber? Always having things go wrong when he's in with a chance of a good result.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You know you want to. [judgegrudge.mybrute.com]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You know you want to. [judgegrudge.mybrute.com]
flat tyre Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Adrian Sutil - the new Mark Webber? Always having
> things go wrong when he's in with a chance of a
> good result.
i can think of 3 results that you are probably referring to (monaco 2008, china 2009, germany 2009), one was his fault, one was probably his fault and the other one he was in a false position and going to be penalised anyway for passing two cars under yellow flags. webber's misfortunes were, mostly, not his fault.
so i'm still not convinced that Sutil's any great talent at all.
X (@ed24f1)
-------------------------------------------------------
> Adrian Sutil - the new Mark Webber? Always having
> things go wrong when he's in with a chance of a
> good result.
i can think of 3 results that you are probably referring to (monaco 2008, china 2009, germany 2009), one was his fault, one was probably his fault and the other one he was in a false position and going to be penalised anyway for passing two cars under yellow flags. webber's misfortunes were, mostly, not his fault.
so i'm still not convinced that Sutil's any great talent at all.
X (@ed24f1)
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.