The Official German Grand Prix ***SPOILERS***

which is again why they should ban wing mirrors - i can't see why they didn't do this years ago.

---

X (@ed24f1)

gav Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> micky-cannonball Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> Random words
>
>
> [www.mattresspolice.com]
>
>
>
Yeah!, You are Stupid. alright!

It doesn't matter if he did it on purpose. You can't have a set of stewards discussing intent during a race, when they can't confront the driver anyway. They have to punish him.

---

It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

Webbers penalty was a little harsh, but fair enough that the stewards gave him one. What I don't understand is that they didn't give Raikkonen a penalty for nearly the same thing, that had actually a worse outcome. Some consistancy would be nice.

Morbid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It doesn't matter if he did it on purpose. You
> can't have a set of stewards discussing intent
> during a race, when they can't confront the driver
> anyway. They have to punish him.

Which is what I argued earlier. I was just stating what he said.

I'm sorry, but Kimi gets driven into, and suddenly it's a penalty? What is he meant to do? Drive off the circuit to give even more room to Sutil?

Kimi was ahead at the point of contact, give the ENTIRE TRACK to Sutil, and he still got hit. What more do people want him to actually do?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
theRacingLine.net
SportsCarArchives.com

OK Gav. I am not going into the Sutil/Kimi incident, except remarking, that it is strange that they so often bump into each other on track. It seems kind of personal now.

---

It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

In Sutils defence, the corner is too tight to get around if you are on the very inside. Nearly every driver that came out of the pitlane ran off the track in that corner, simply because that's the sharpest they could turn.

I didn't exactly agree with Webbers penalty, but if they gave Webber one, Raikkonen should've been given one too. Barrichello had probably just under two carwidths left on his side IIRC. He could've gone left, but not much. Same goes for Sutil. He could've braked more or something. The 'recieving party' could've prevented both the accidents, but didn't. Webber got a penalty for it, then Raikkonen should have one too. Not that I'd agree with both the penalties, it's the lack of consistancy I'm not agreeing with.

Nickv schreef:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Webbers penalty was a little harsh, but fair
> enough that the stewards gave him one. What I
> don't understand is that they didn't give
> Raikkonen a penalty for nearly the same thing,
> that had actually a worse outcome. Some
> consistancy would be nice.


Well, Webber changed his line suddenly, that's not allowed, Kimi didn't and gave Sutil more then enough room. Though, I remember Hamilton also changing his line suddenly in the 2007 season, no bad outcome, but he wasn't punished, the stewards this weekend seemed quite harsh, also in GP2 with Petrov.

Iceman-Kimi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well, Webber changed his line suddenly, that's not
> allowed

Exactly. You are allowed to change your line once, when defending, and Webber already did that. Also, how the @#$%& was Rubens to anticipate that Webber would bang into him? Rubens has a right to expect Webber to respect his line, no matter how much room there is on the inside. Turning it upside down is just twisted.

---

It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2009 11:08AM by Morbid.

Brilliant drive by Webber. That's a gorilla shaped monkey off his back. All the sweeter is the victory after a drive through. So here's a question:

How many drivers have won an F1 race despite a drive through penalty? I can't recall another.

gav Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> //edit: Chet, remarkably, I almost entirely
> disagree with most of what you have written.
>
> Button was faster at points in the race, Rubens in
> others.

Difficult to compare the two drivers pace directly. Jenson had traffic, stuck behind Kova, Rubens was leading in clear air. Looking at the times they were matched though. Rubens quicker than Jenson...

> Rubens held a substantial lead over Button, yet
> once more (not the first time, as you are making
> out), strategy has played into the hands of his
> teammate. Ross Brawn might have a reputation as a
> master tactician, but his words are only finding
> their way to one side of the garage at the
> moment.
>
> You give your leading car the optimum strategy.
> Except at teams with clear number ones, that's the
> way it works. Yet consistently, Rubens has been
> given the shorter fuel load, having to be pitted
> first. Earlier in the season, that might have been
> his decision, but it's fairly obvious from the
> past few races that it's not the case. He might be
> a bit of a moaner, but it wasn't moaning he was
> doing, it was anger.

On the first two stops Rubens pitted after Jenson, Rubens was given the optimal strategy, right? Only his final stop was the one where Jenson pitted after him, now to me that was either Jenson saving fuel as I said, or when the fuel-hose issue occured, the team did not put the right amount in either in an attempt to get him out quicker or simply just an error with the hose. Upto that pitstop however Jenson was quicker and made it possible to jump Rubens, his inlap was 1second quicker than Rubens and his out lap was 1tenth quicker, enough to pass him.

>
> If it's his last season in F1, do you expect him
> to go with a whimper? If there's even the
> slightest chance of a championship challenge,
> he'll go for it, and I think he's now prepared to
> put his job on the line with his words rather than
> just accept being number 2.
>
> It's a team sport... but not when the team is
> fighting against you, as it seems is the case
> now.

I cant see how the team is fighting against him?? It was a set of compleltey random occurances that caused him to finish where he did. That and a poor Brawn car that afternoon.
>
> If Brawn just accepted that they were favouring or
> even concentrating on Button, then I think people
> would find that easier to understand, but they're
> trying to skip around it as if no-one will notice.
> It's quite slimy the way they're going about it.

There is no evidence to suggest they are favouring one driver over another like. Like I said, the fuel hose problem was a random error. The fact that JB pitted a lap later was probably down to that error or Jenson driving with the thought of wanting to beat his team-mate at the next stop.

Gav, I am all for Rubens fighting for what he thinks is right or wrong, however his words on live tv was just bad. Those 400 odd people at the factory working their arses off to win this championship I can imagine will not be pleased with what he said. The correct, and decent thing to do would be to talk to the team about what problems he felt they had then just maybe once he understood, then talk to the press about how he feels. He is letting the smallest of things get to him, NOT the mentallity which will win you championships !

edit - Gav, Just things to consider, Rubens's radio was not operating properly, so what he saw was himself leading, then suddenly drop to 6th, behind Jenson, with no idea what was happening behind him. Looking at the fuel-rig problem, I was amazed at how quick they sorted the issue. Had the issue not occured he was looking at 4th, maybe 3rd. When I heard about the radio problems it kinda puts a little more light onto the situation. 1st to 6th and behind your team-mate with little contact from the team... Still does not excuse his behavoir. However he is not stupid, he will talk to the team, look at the facts and realize what happened was purley down to circumstance rather than the team favouring one over the other.

as for me and you, we look at it from different angles, I of course am a Jenson fan, you are not so much a Jenson fan, so any suggestion of him being favoured I rubbish, to me Jenson is king and needs no help (or something along those lines ). You are seeing it slightly different. I would happily be the first to admit the team favouring Jenson, and I bet so would Ross. However today was not the case of anything against Rubens and towards Jenson. In the future however if Rubens remains to fall behind then there will be a time where Brawn will need to favour Jenson, and im sure Rubens will have no issues with that when the time comes.

Gui, I think its been mentioned but drivers, or teams can not let exit the pits earlier than planned, if they released the hose earlier they will probably be told off. Thats why RBR never did such a thing with Vettel whenever he has been stuck behind drivers.

Also, it was once Jacques Villeneuve who said they need to ban mirrors...

---

"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2009 01:00PM by chet.

mcdo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> How many drivers have won an F1 race despite a
> drive through penalty? I can't recall another.

Was it Schumacher at France 2002? Thats about the only example I can think of.

DaveEllis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm sorry, but Kimi gets driven into, and suddenly
> it's a penalty? What is he meant to do? Drive off
> the circuit to give even more room to Sutil?
>
> Kimi was ahead at the point of contact, give the
> ENTIRE TRACK to Sutil, and he still got hit. What
> more do people want him to actually do?

H E L L YEAH!. even sutil admit it it.....

Sutil : "When I went out of the pit lane I saw Kimi coming on the outside of the corner and I just tried to hold my line but he went to the outside and I touched him and lost part of my front wing," he explained. "That's really when I thought the race was over for the points as I had to come back in."

Earl ALEXANDER
© CAPSIS International






Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2009 01:16PM by micky-cannonball.

Red_Bull Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> mcdo Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > How many drivers have won an F1 race despite a
> > drive through penalty? I can't recall another.
>
> Was it Schumacher at France 2002? Thats about the
> only example I can think of.


Was it? I'm hoping Webber's drive is a first. Oddly enough I was thinking of comparing Webber's drive to Schumacher doing a 4 stopper at Magny Cours in 2004, such was that victory's unbelievability.

Nickv Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In Sutils defence, the corner is too tight to get
> around if you are on the very inside. Nearly every
> driver that came out of the pitlane ran off the
> track in that corner, simply because that's the
> sharpest they could turn.

Well the entire grid manages to get round on lap 1.

> I didn't exactly agree with Webbers penalty, but
> if they gave Webber one, Raikkonen should've been
> given one too. Barrichello had probably just under
> two carwidths left on his side IIRC. He could've
> gone left, but not much. Same goes for Sutil. He
> could've braked more or something. The 'recieving
> party' could've prevented both the accidents, but
> didn't. Webber got a penalty for it, then
> Raikkonen should have one too. Not that I'd agree
> with both the penalties, it's the lack of
> consistancy I'm not agreeing with.

But Webber moved twice and hit another car. Kimi didn't move at all. He was on the far left hand side of the track. Had he went further left then he'd have been off the track.

You can't compare what Webber did with what Kimi did. Maybe you could compare it to what Sutil did - since he was the one that made the mistake and ran into another car.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
theRacingLine.net
SportsCarArchives.com

Comparing pit exit to the race start is a stretch IMO.

how come brawn have wingletes on their front wing, werent they banned??

chet Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is no evidence to suggest they are favouring
> one driver over another like.

Care to explain why the final stop they left the rear of Barrichello's car up in the air after all the tyres were changed, while on Button's (like every other stop they made that afternoon) was plonked back on the track as soon the guns were off?


chet Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gav, I am all for Rubens fighting for what he
> thinks is right or wrong, however his words on
> live tv was just bad. Those 400 odd people at the
> factory working their arses off to win this
> championship I can imagine will not be pleased
> with what he said.

They all know his words weren't directed at them. It's got nothing to do with the car.


I'm not complaining about the rest of the race, and I don't really think he is either... just with the final pit-stop approaching, there were a few odd occurrences. Not for the first time this season. And they only seem to be happening when Rubens is just ahead of or in a direct battle with Button.

Still too early to say it's much more than a coincidence, but these odd things aren't happening to Button (things that couldn't be constituted as a mistake, such as his own slightly slower final stop).

Rosberg impressed me yesterday, starting 15th and finishing 4th, quite a feat. He quietly got on with his job and made it home safely.

Vettel doesn't seem to cope too well when he has to fight through the pack, but this is exacerbated by the fact that the Red Bull seems to struggle in the dirty air when following cars.

Hungary I think will swing towards Brawn if the temperature's are up, which they should be.

---