The Official Spanish Grand Prix 2009 Thread (*spoilers*)
Posted by The Lopper
at least McLaren didn't decide that trying to win the championship in 2008 would be ahead of their schedule
Very true 
EC83 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think Rubens just wants reassurance that he's
> definitely being fairly treated. He remembers only
> too well the situation he endured at Ferrari for 6
> seasons. Once he wins a race(and hopefully he will
> win one soon) he should settle down a bit. As we
> all know, it's all about confidence with Rubens.
>
you are just repeating what the commentators said :p
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think Rubens just wants reassurance that he's
> definitely being fairly treated. He remembers only
> too well the situation he endured at Ferrari for 6
> seasons. Once he wins a race(and hopefully he will
> win one soon) he should settle down a bit. As we
> all know, it's all about confidence with Rubens.
>
you are just repeating what the commentators said :p
He really, really didn't do himself any favours with that. Blatantly pissed off and yet bigging up the team in the same interview. I know it mightn't be obvious, but a bad season could actually do him wonders in supporters terms.
Incidentally, Lewis should say "bigging up" more.
Incidentally, Lewis should say "bigging up" more.
DaveEllis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> bender Wrote:
>
> > Is there any indication that Webber's first
> stop
> > was actaully botched?
> >
> > Given the extra fuel he would've taken on board
> > for his second stint surely that would've
> > accounted for his out lap being slower?
>
>
> Well he went from within a second of Vettels
> gearbox to 5-6 seconds behind. Either the stop was
> botched, or he went exploring the run offs.
No, and i will prove my point to the best of my ability.
Here is a timeline of the relevant events:
Lap 18: the gap between Webber and Vettel was 1.2 seconds. Webber: 1:23.112, Vettel: 1:23.356.
Lap 19: Webber pitted for a duration of 27.101 (including driving through the lane i presume). Webber (Inlap): 1:25.646
Lap 20: Vettel pitted for a duration of 24.897. Webber (Outlap): 1:49.998, Vettel (Inlap): 1:25.457
Lap 21: Gap is 6.1 seconds. Vettel (Outlap): 1:46.713, Webber 1:25.055
Lap 22: Gap is 6.8 seconds. Vettel: 1:24.384, Webber: 1:25.098
Laps 23-24: The pattern of Lap 22 continues, and Webber is 7 tenths slower on both laps
Laps 25-31: Webber on average 3-4 tenths slower.
Laps 32-42: Webber on average 1-2 tenths quicker than Vettel until Lap 43 (Vettel's pitstop)
Lap 43: Vettel pitted for a duration of 25.099, giving a total race pit time of 49.996.
Lap 50: Webber pitted for a duration of 22.885, giving a total race pit time of 49.986.
It is actually quite hard to see where all of the gap has come from. Obviously there is the 2.2 seconds from the pitstop, understandable when considered Webber pitted 7 laps later than Vettel in the second round of pitstops. Vettel also has one extra lap on low fuel, while Webber was heavy with fuel. In his outlap, Webber also loses another 1.1 seconds if you take out the pitstop times. As i am about to explain, this is about 4 tenths more than he loses to Vettel in subsequent laps. Maybe this was a small mistake, but not on the scale you seemed to be implying. However, considering the massive improvement he makes during the stint in comparison to Vettel, i dont think it is unreasonable that he would lose 1.1 seconds on the first lap after the stops, with a full tank of fuel and cold tyres. Once again considering Vettel pitted 7 laps earlier than Webber at the second round of pitstops, he had much less of a fuel load to come to terms with. From then on, Webber is consistently 7 tenths slower than Vettel for the next 3 laps. His laptimes are virtually identical in these few laps. This indicates no exploration of the run-offs in these laps. Infact, the point that Webber's lap times improve over the stint dramatically in comparison to Vettel clearly indicates a large fuel load going down, which explains the long pitstop.
There is also extremely little chance of a botched pitstop. Considering both cars began with an equal fuel load, they both needed to add the same amount of fuel to get to the end of the race. Webber added more in the first stop (hence the longer pit time), and subsequently less in the second, while Vettel had fairly equal stints (and subsequently pitted 7 laps earlier than Webber on a long middle stint). Both their total race pit times are only 1 hundredth of a second apart. Surely this means that none of the pitstops were botched, as the chances of two pitstops being botched to exactly the same extent is almost impossible.
If that doesn't convince you, nothing will.
My information comes from official FIA documents:
[www.fia.com]
[www.fia.com]
[www.fia.com]
[www.fia.com]
X (@ed24f1)
-------------------------------------------------------
> bender Wrote:
>
> > Is there any indication that Webber's first
> stop
> > was actaully botched?
> >
> > Given the extra fuel he would've taken on board
> > for his second stint surely that would've
> > accounted for his out lap being slower?
>
>
> Well he went from within a second of Vettels
> gearbox to 5-6 seconds behind. Either the stop was
> botched, or he went exploring the run offs.
No, and i will prove my point to the best of my ability.
Here is a timeline of the relevant events:
Lap 18: the gap between Webber and Vettel was 1.2 seconds. Webber: 1:23.112, Vettel: 1:23.356.
Lap 19: Webber pitted for a duration of 27.101 (including driving through the lane i presume). Webber (Inlap): 1:25.646
Lap 20: Vettel pitted for a duration of 24.897. Webber (Outlap): 1:49.998, Vettel (Inlap): 1:25.457
Lap 21: Gap is 6.1 seconds. Vettel (Outlap): 1:46.713, Webber 1:25.055
Lap 22: Gap is 6.8 seconds. Vettel: 1:24.384, Webber: 1:25.098
Laps 23-24: The pattern of Lap 22 continues, and Webber is 7 tenths slower on both laps
Laps 25-31: Webber on average 3-4 tenths slower.
Laps 32-42: Webber on average 1-2 tenths quicker than Vettel until Lap 43 (Vettel's pitstop)
Lap 43: Vettel pitted for a duration of 25.099, giving a total race pit time of 49.996.
Lap 50: Webber pitted for a duration of 22.885, giving a total race pit time of 49.986.
It is actually quite hard to see where all of the gap has come from. Obviously there is the 2.2 seconds from the pitstop, understandable when considered Webber pitted 7 laps later than Vettel in the second round of pitstops. Vettel also has one extra lap on low fuel, while Webber was heavy with fuel. In his outlap, Webber also loses another 1.1 seconds if you take out the pitstop times. As i am about to explain, this is about 4 tenths more than he loses to Vettel in subsequent laps. Maybe this was a small mistake, but not on the scale you seemed to be implying. However, considering the massive improvement he makes during the stint in comparison to Vettel, i dont think it is unreasonable that he would lose 1.1 seconds on the first lap after the stops, with a full tank of fuel and cold tyres. Once again considering Vettel pitted 7 laps earlier than Webber at the second round of pitstops, he had much less of a fuel load to come to terms with. From then on, Webber is consistently 7 tenths slower than Vettel for the next 3 laps. His laptimes are virtually identical in these few laps. This indicates no exploration of the run-offs in these laps. Infact, the point that Webber's lap times improve over the stint dramatically in comparison to Vettel clearly indicates a large fuel load going down, which explains the long pitstop.
There is also extremely little chance of a botched pitstop. Considering both cars began with an equal fuel load, they both needed to add the same amount of fuel to get to the end of the race. Webber added more in the first stop (hence the longer pit time), and subsequently less in the second, while Vettel had fairly equal stints (and subsequently pitted 7 laps earlier than Webber on a long middle stint). Both their total race pit times are only 1 hundredth of a second apart. Surely this means that none of the pitstops were botched, as the chances of two pitstops being botched to exactly the same extent is almost impossible.
If that doesn't convince you, nothing will.
My information comes from official FIA documents:
[www.fia.com]
[www.fia.com]
[www.fia.com]
[www.fia.com]
X (@ed24f1)
The fact of the matter is he was 1.2 seconds down on lap 18. After the pit stop he was 6.8 down. Where did that time go? You can't say it was all down to extra fuel or whatever. That just isn't the case. You don't lose 5.6 seconds from that.
in my opinion, you could. We already know about the 3.3 seconds from outlap and pitstop. We also know that Webber was 0.7 seconds slower per lap in the couple of laps after the pitstops. If the gap is this big after the pitstops, Vettel could likely have taken over a second on the lap (#20) when Webber had pitted and Vettel was on his inlap low on fuel. Therefore, i think we can account for most of the time lost.
Known
2.2 - Pitstops
1.1 - Outlaps
0.2 - Inlaps
0.7 - Lap 21
Unknown
1 (?) - Lap 20
This gives us 6.4 seconds, which doesn't leave much room for errors. Of course the Lap 20 figure is an estimate, and could well fill the extra 0.4 seconds.
Something went wrong somewhere. You should also remember that the outlap is timed from where he crosses the start and finish line, not when he exits the pits. He was stationary during the out lap in the pit stall, so that extra few seconds could be anywhere. It could be a mistake in the stop, a mistake pulling out of the pits, being held for another car coming, a mistake on track, really bad traffic
You just admitted that the pitstop time is included in the outlap. Therefore, there is only 1.1 seconds to be found. As i explained above, that is not unreasonable at all considering the pattern of his stint in comparison to Vettel. Maybe he made a small mistake, but it appears to be unlikely from this data to be more than half a second at most.
From the addition of both driver's total pit time, it is also pretty clear that there was no mistake from pit entry to pit exit (as it seems that data is measured)
However, I think the held up theory might have some merit. One lap after his stop he was about 1.5 seconds behind Hamilton, who would have been slightly faster than him at this point of the race, and could mean that Webber was right behind him when he came out of the pitlane. I know this probably isn't the most reliable source, but this replay animation [www.visionf1.com] seems to suggest Webber came out in the middle of a group of cars.
And of course you shouldn't be comparing the final pit stops, as that isn't where the time was lost. You should be looking at the first stop, and the first stop only.
it is relevant, because by adding up the two pitstop times for both drivers, it shows that the first stop was not botched - as i elaborated on in my previous post.
X (@ed24f1)
in my opinion, you could. We already know about the 3.3 seconds from outlap and pitstop. We also know that Webber was 0.7 seconds slower per lap in the couple of laps after the pitstops. If the gap is this big after the pitstops, Vettel could likely have taken over a second on the lap (#20) when Webber had pitted and Vettel was on his inlap low on fuel. Therefore, i think we can account for most of the time lost.
Known
2.2 - Pitstops
1.1 - Outlaps
0.2 - Inlaps
0.7 - Lap 21
Unknown
1 (?) - Lap 20
This gives us 6.4 seconds, which doesn't leave much room for errors. Of course the Lap 20 figure is an estimate, and could well fill the extra 0.4 seconds.
Something went wrong somewhere. You should also remember that the outlap is timed from where he crosses the start and finish line, not when he exits the pits. He was stationary during the out lap in the pit stall, so that extra few seconds could be anywhere. It could be a mistake in the stop, a mistake pulling out of the pits, being held for another car coming, a mistake on track, really bad traffic
You just admitted that the pitstop time is included in the outlap. Therefore, there is only 1.1 seconds to be found. As i explained above, that is not unreasonable at all considering the pattern of his stint in comparison to Vettel. Maybe he made a small mistake, but it appears to be unlikely from this data to be more than half a second at most.
From the addition of both driver's total pit time, it is also pretty clear that there was no mistake from pit entry to pit exit (as it seems that data is measured)
However, I think the held up theory might have some merit. One lap after his stop he was about 1.5 seconds behind Hamilton, who would have been slightly faster than him at this point of the race, and could mean that Webber was right behind him when he came out of the pitlane. I know this probably isn't the most reliable source, but this replay animation [www.visionf1.com] seems to suggest Webber came out in the middle of a group of cars.
And of course you shouldn't be comparing the final pit stops, as that isn't where the time was lost. You should be looking at the first stop, and the first stop only.
it is relevant, because by adding up the two pitstop times for both drivers, it shows that the first stop was not botched - as i elaborated on in my previous post.
X (@ed24f1)
from this document here you can get the total race pit duration.
[www.fia.com]
From my first post on this topic above;
Considering both cars began with an equal fuel load, they both needed to add the same amount of fuel to get to the end of the race. Webber added more in the first stop (hence the longer pit time), and subsequently less in the second, while Vettel had fairly equal stints (and subsequently pitted 7 laps earlier than Webber on a long middle stint). Both their total race pit times are only 1 hundredth of a second apart. Surely this means that none of the pitstops were botched, as the chances of two pitstops being botched to exactly the same extent is almost impossible.
the numbers are all from the FIA documents i posted links to above. The outlap figure is the gap between the two drivers' outlaps, minus the gap in their pitstops times.
i hope you can understand some of it now. maybe i can explain it better tomorrow after i get some sleep.
X (@ed24f1)
[www.fia.com]
From my first post on this topic above;
Considering both cars began with an equal fuel load, they both needed to add the same amount of fuel to get to the end of the race. Webber added more in the first stop (hence the longer pit time), and subsequently less in the second, while Vettel had fairly equal stints (and subsequently pitted 7 laps earlier than Webber on a long middle stint). Both their total race pit times are only 1 hundredth of a second apart. Surely this means that none of the pitstops were botched, as the chances of two pitstops being botched to exactly the same extent is almost impossible.
the numbers are all from the FIA documents i posted links to above. The outlap figure is the gap between the two drivers' outlaps, minus the gap in their pitstops times.
i hope you can understand some of it now. maybe i can explain it better tomorrow after i get some sleep.
X (@ed24f1)
Regarding the Webber lost time, you can see from the pitstop times his stop was longer but only by a couple of seconds or so, so clearly it was a combination of factors that caused his loss of 5.6 seconds, I'd imagine traffic/a mistake on his outlap.
gav Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Feel disappointed for Massa. He had had a great
> race until then.
I thought Massa had one of his finest drives to date, if not the finest. In a car that was clearly inferior he managed to stay within 6 seconds of JB while they were on the soft tyres, and withstood constant pressure from Vettel without making any mistakes. Then he managed the fuel crisis as well as could've been expected, even if Rob Smedley was talking him through it. Salvaging a points finish in the circumstances - and stretching his fuel out to last the race + 3 corners - was pretty good going I thought. That drive certainly impressed me more than any of his wins.
gav Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Lopper Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > If Hamilton wants to moan, let him moan. I
> can't
> > say that moaning will get him anywhere, but
> it's
> > better off to hear the truth from drivers than
> > some PR bs. Problem is, Hamilton's kind of
> doing
> > both at the moment.
>
> The best bit is that he's doing both in the same
> interview, 10 seconds apart. It's quite amusing.
> :D
Especially the "No" at the very end.
DC picked up on it immediately.
gin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> EC83 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I think Rubens just wants reassurance that he's
> > definitely being fairly treated. He remembers
> only
> > too well the situation he endured at Ferrari for
> 6
> > seasons. Once he wins a race(and hopefully he
> will
> > win one soon) he should settle down a bit. As
> we
> > all know, it's all about confidence with Rubens.
>
> >
>
> you are just repeating what the commentators said
> :p
O-K.
gav Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Feel disappointed for Massa. He had had a great
> race until then.
I thought Massa had one of his finest drives to date, if not the finest. In a car that was clearly inferior he managed to stay within 6 seconds of JB while they were on the soft tyres, and withstood constant pressure from Vettel without making any mistakes. Then he managed the fuel crisis as well as could've been expected, even if Rob Smedley was talking him through it. Salvaging a points finish in the circumstances - and stretching his fuel out to last the race + 3 corners - was pretty good going I thought. That drive certainly impressed me more than any of his wins.
gav Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Lopper Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > If Hamilton wants to moan, let him moan. I
> can't
> > say that moaning will get him anywhere, but
> it's
> > better off to hear the truth from drivers than
> > some PR bs. Problem is, Hamilton's kind of
> doing
> > both at the moment.
>
> The best bit is that he's doing both in the same
> interview, 10 seconds apart. It's quite amusing.
> :D
Especially the "No" at the very end.
DC picked up on it immediately.gin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> EC83 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I think Rubens just wants reassurance that he's
> > definitely being fairly treated. He remembers
> only
> > too well the situation he endured at Ferrari for
> 6
> > seasons. Once he wins a race(and hopefully he
> will
> > win one soon) he should settle down a bit. As
> we
> > all know, it's all about confidence with Rubens.
>
> >
>
> you are just repeating what the commentators said
> :p
O-K.
It was quite visible on the tv that Buemi misjudged and punted Bourdais... nice picture.
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
chet schreef:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It was quite visible on the tv that Buemi
> misjudged and punted Bourdais... nice picture.
It was the other way around, Bourdais noticing the mayhem too late and hitting Buemi
_____________________________________________________________________
Bring back the racing
-------------------------------------------------------
> It was quite visible on the tv that Buemi
> misjudged and punted Bourdais... nice picture.
It was the other way around, Bourdais noticing the mayhem too late and hitting Buemi
_____________________________________________________________________
Bring back the racing
Oh thanks! I wasnt sure but from the picture I guessed it was the other way round :p
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.