Bruno Senna to Toro Rosso?

He should be fairly average in F1, but I've said it before; he's got neither the raw speed nor the mentality to be a world-champion in F1. He's capable of winning races, but unless he improves a hell of a lot, he'll do no better than a DC or Fisi at best in my honest opinion.

He's improved immeasurably since his return to racing, but frankly it would have taken some effort to be as bad.

Pantano should win the GP2 title, but he's hardly been electric this year. He's inherited his lead through the mistakes of others. GP2 seems a pretty poor standard at the moment to me.

marcl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am not saying he will not do well in f1 I just
> dont think he is ready yet but another year in GP2
> will be to much thats the problem.

Too much how exactly? Hill entered F1 in the 30s and still should have won 2 titles - 3 if he had his head in gear. Yes there's a trend for teams to hire younger drivers, but that's more the car and how you handle it than the driver - Bordais is not exactly a spring chicken, yet was still deemed good enough to be brought in in what will be the 2nd half of his career.

I thought both Glock and Nakajima have done well this year. Glock's against one of the quickest drivers in the sport and has hardly been embarrassed. Nakajima is harder to judge, but I feel Rosberg's also a team-mate you wouldn't choose to be partnered with (though this year he has been poor).

Bruno isnt Ayrton but he's better than he was. For example he doesnt have the "win or wall" mentality, he races for the championship, kinda like Alonso did in 2005. As much as you would love that mentality (win or wall) and although it looks entertaining to watch, its not so fun when you lose it because you went beyond the limit and bang. This is where Bruno is better than Ayrton, even his uncle said "If you think that I'm good, wait until you see my nephew.". Unfortunately he didnt took into account the 10 year ban his family imposed to him when he died... For someone coming from such a ban hes doing extremely good, hell, he could have won F3 if a $#*%$(@! mexican (Salvador Duran) hadnt attempted an homicide pushing him off @ Snetterton! He could be leading GP2 standings had he finished at turkey if the *$#$#*@ turkey marshalls hadnt left a dog on track... he was climbing very fast through the field in that race.

Only in 1 aspect he wont be better than his uncle. He's not Ayrton. And we know it. I'm not expecting another "Jesus Christ" nor I expect him to win 3 titles and do the things his uncle used to do, but as long as he fights with pride for at least 1 title and doesnt do the same s*** the Honda #17 and Ferrari #2 did, I'm satisfied with him.

He is ready, its just a matter of time.

Pantano? He didnt made anything good in a Jordan, he will hardly do anything good in a STR for example. He doesnt deserve a 2nd chance, imo. Not after what he did with Grosjean at Hungary. His time has gone and he should call it over. He struggled to beat Di Grassi last year, and Lucas isnt a good driver either, despite of what his results are saying, I just can't see a winning potential in him. He looks like a version 3.0 of these two twats in F1.

---

Yes the 10 year ban and alot has changed since then.

Please dont get me wrong I am not saying he is a bad driver and that he will never get into F1 I simply dont think he will do as well as people expect and he will have so much pressure on him. a bit like what has happened to piquet this year.

marcl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes the 10 year ban and alot has changed since
> then.
>
> Please dont get me wrong I am not saying he is a
> bad driver and that he will never get into F1 I
> simply dont think he will do as well as people
> expect and he will have so much pressure on him. a
> bit like what has happened to piquet this year.

I can see your point but I am not expecting him to be a God either... I just expect him to do what I said in my previous post. He will never be Ayrton as well as Piquet Jr will never be his father. But they can have a career way better than the Ferrari #2 and Honda #17 careers. I really believe that they can win 1 title at least.

---

See I dont, Massa has improved a lot and if any ferrari driver is to win this year it will be him.

Not many drivers have changed as much as he has, this year he has really impressed me. Yes there are still a few errors but they have all made them.

Can have a better career? Yes. Will they? They've a long way to go. I don't think either have the ability to achieve more than either Rubens or Felipe have done at this point*.

Unless there are marked increases in performance, I see neither achieving more than either of the other two have - being a strong 2nd driver in a top team. To me, that's the height of their potential.

* I say at this point as until Hungry, Massa had a genuine chance at the title - he still has a chance, but he's going to need some luck along the way now, just as Hamilton and Kimi had luck that Massa retired.

That's not me saying Massa deserves a title - I certainly wouldn't have thought he could win one even at the start of this season, and never thought he had the talent to sustain a title challenge, and he's still not shown he can. But he is/was up there giving himself that chance, and both he and Kimi have had far worse luck that the likes of Hamilton this year. You couldn't call it luck if Massa did win the title. Just unexpected.

I think Bruno will be in Toro Rosso next year. Then he'll have 2 or 3 years to prove himself, after that we'll see if he has the potential to drive for a top team. There's no point saying and guessing how good would/will he be in F1, first he has to get into F1 and then we'll see.

---

I think we can pretty comfortably write off Bruno making his Grand Prix debut for Ferrari, when was the last time Ferrari put a rookie on the grid? To be honest I'd doubt they'd even take him on as a test driver.

The way I see it, the obvious team at the moment is STR, they do after all have a vacancy, perhaps even two, Williams are bound to interested in him, it would not surprise me in the least if it was Sir Frank who offered him his first test in F1.

I don't see Renault being a option for him, their interests lie in Grosjean and Di Grassi. RBR unlikely, they already have the race team sewn up and it looks like Buemi or Chandhok would fill the test role.

Honda probably not, but you never know what Nick Fry might attempt next, and I don't see any likely opening at McLaren or Force India for him either.

If it happens at all it's STR or Williams.

Bruninho Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bruno isnt Ayrton but he's better than he was. For
> example he doesnt have the "win or wall"
> mentality, he races for the championship, kinda
> like Alonso did in 2005. As much as you would love
> that mentality (win or wall) and although it looks
> entertaining to watch, its not so fun when you
> lose it because you went beyond the limit and
> bang. This is where Bruno is better than Ayrton,
> even his uncle said "If you think that I'm good,
> wait until you see my nephew.". Unfortunately he
> didnt took into account the 10 year ban his family
> imposed to him when he died... For someone coming
> from such a ban hes doing extremely good, hell, he
> could have won F3 if a $#*%$(@! mexican (Salvador
> Duran) hadnt attempted an homicide pushing him off
> @ Snetterton! He could be leading GP2 standings
> had he finished at turkey if the *$#$#*@ turkey
> marshalls hadnt left a dog on track... he was
> climbing very fast through the field in that
> race.

Rofl! Bruno will never be as good as Ayrton, as much as i like Bruno and think he has a bright future, comparing him to his uncle who won every series he went to is just plain silly.
Just because Ayrton said "whait till you see my nephew" doesn't mean sh!t really. Look at Jan Magnussen's career for example.

J i m Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If it happens at all it's STR or Williams.

Yup, that's what I was saying since yesterday.

When I said that he could be better than his uncle it was about the mentality, their approach to racing. Ayrton was "win or wall", so obssessed with winning at all costs that in some seasons it costed some valuable points, podiums for the ch'ship (Monza '89 anyone? Monaco '88 anyone?). Bruno does want to win but he doesnt want to die for it either. Hes less emotional than his uncle used to be. I see it as an advantage as he could keep his head cool on-track for being less emotional about the things. He will just drive like Alonso did in 2005, go for wins when he can, go for the maximum amount of points when he can't.

When we talk about driving skills, charisma, the person off-track, yes he will never be close to his shoes. But he can honour his memory with at least 1 title. It will just take some time and i'll be satisfied.

Damon Hill won in 1996, wasnt it enough for someone being the son of Graham Hill? or Jacques in 97, considering that Gilles had never won it? I personally think that they did the minimum we expected from them and it was good enough. But they were never close to what Graham and Gilles used to be. I wasnt expecting them to be either.

You would be expecting way too much from them if we asked them to be as artistic as Graham on track or as crazy as Gilles on track. They were unique. Same for Bruno if we had asked him to go beyond his limits on track like his uncle loved to do. They're not like them, they are just another Hill, Villeneuve and Senna but with a different mentality and approach to racing. And it is interesting to watch.

I was just trying to say that unlike most casual f1 fans, I do know that he's not like Ayrton or a substitute to him. He's just another Senna but I believe that he can be good.

---

mikef1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> comparing him to his uncle who won every
> series he went to is just plain silly.

You don't know if he could have won in every series or not, we will never know it, because of the 10 year ban his family imposed to him. And when he went back, he had to jump some phases directly to open wheelers missing a lot of practice and experience. But he learns the things very quickly, and it is a good thing to recover the track time he had lost in 10 years.

---

Monza 1989 his engine blew up there was a fault on the engine from the start of the race look it up.

The mistake senna made in 1989 was Portugal having a crash with Mansell who was out the race anyway and that is what cost senna and he knew it.

He also learnt from Monaco 1988 it made him stronger look how he came back.

Senna would not have been senna had it not been win everything that was him yes it was a weakness sometimes but its better than sitting in 3rd waiting for people to break down etc. Mansell was the same as was MS.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2008 10:41PM by marcl.

marcl schrieb:
-------------------------------------------------------
Mansell was
> the same as was MS.


in what way?

They always tried to win races not be happy with 4th and 5th. 2nd to senna was the 1st looser of the race.

And people that watch F1 in 1989 would know that 4th and 5th would not get you than championship if the other guy got loads of top 3 finishes as it was only the best 12 scores that counted.

Agreed. Not many now seem to understand that every race was a burning desire to just win, from an outsider looking in anyway. Championship never entered the mind until near the end of the season (if then), and the only goal was the one immediately in front of them.

That can't be counted against someone. If anything it's a quality to be admired. Andretti and Zanardi were the same in CART and Rossi is in MotoGP. Yes they'll talk championship, but they'll never settle for finishing 2nd.

Not so sure on MS. He'd play the team game more. He could put in a drive like any of the others, though less often, but he was more calculating too.

marcl schrieb:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They always tried to win races not be happy with
> 4th and 5th. 2nd to senna was the 1st looser of
> the race.

ok now i got it.

i think ms had a good feeling for when going for the win could pay off or not.
for example at the nurburgring in 95 he went for it (it was not really necessary after hill went out) and it worked out)
spa 2004 finishing in front of barrichello was enough to secure the championship and he settled for 2nd ahead of rb

Should Bruno Senna advance to F1 is a delicate question. Bruno Senna as we know him, and we do not know
much really, is not the same category of driver as Nelsinho Piquet or Nico Rosberg although at the first glance
all three of them appear the same, as the three sons (technically two sons and a nephew) of a enormously famous divers
of the era that most of us still well remember, and as such are enormous sponsor magnets. But things are not so simple in life
and all those little details in the end lead to big differences. Nico Rosberg and Nelsinho Piquet are two drivers who had
all the needed (and sometimes even more) support from his famous and influental fathers. nelsinho even had the whole team
built around him. He was grown to became F1 driver, that was his fathers mission since the day one. Nelsihno had wery little if any
thing to say about it. Ofcourse, who would oppose to such a lucrative carrer, but I was thinking more of like Nelsihno was never
actually taken seriously by his father. His father does the thinking, his father is pulling strings and making decisions and in such enviroment you just cannot
grow to be your own man. Due to that fact Nelsinho grew up weak as a person, and will never grow to be trully a man of his own, even when will have his own kids
to bring up, there will always be Nelson sr. who will have the last word.

Much the same is happening in Andretti fammily. Michael never grew up, throughout his carrer it was obvious that somehing is lacking, that he cracks under pressure,
that he cracks when he is not sorrounded by his clan. He was however very fast and very talented driver, but talent is not enough. Take 95 season for instance. He had clearly the
best package (Lola-Cosworth-Goodyear) and yet he couldn't deliver. There was simply too much silly little mistakes (Long beach '95, probably being his worst race ever),
His F1 adventure was marred by his weakneses also, he wouldnt move to europe. He couldnt leave US and his fammily.
And that costed him his F1 carrer. Also Mario is more influental in US than europe. Thing about Mario is that he grew up in the very poor
family infact in the shithole, on the messy borders of italy at delicate times and they were forced to emigrate. In general people with rough childhood
grow up to be enormously strong people with the great authority. Side effect is that they usually tend to controll their fammily, fammily members and
fammily businesses. And there comes the grandson. The third generation to bear Andretti name and pride. Marco is more influenced by Mario than Michael.
And than there is that nepotism thing going on, so typical for italians. End result is that his teammates suffer, one of them is challenging for the title, yet Marco is the favoured driver.
And are blowing the whole thing way out of proportions, why are they forcing him to drive ALMS and Indycars on the same weekend on the tracks that are miles apart is completely unexplainable to me,
while losing good drivers in the process (Herta). Nepotism is the major problem in the world today. Those things that are going on at AGR are just bad. But that is typicall italian stuff, directed by none other than Mario.
IMO Jeff and John (one is Mario's son one is nephew, cant tell at this moment, without checking who is who)who were in lets say cecond line of favourism grew up to be mentally stronger than
Michael. Naturally their carrers were less sucsessfull too. Whether it is talent, support or something else i dont know. But they are complete persons unlike Michael is.

Going back to Nelsihno, you can see that in this stages of his carrer he is starting to feel the burden of his surname. He wants to detach himself from his
father, but it is yust to difficult to accomplish. And the enviroment is not helping either. After his first ever apperance to the podium at the press conference Peter Windsor immediately reffred to his father; saying "now we have again two brazilians on the podium after Ayrton Senna and YOUR FATHER accoplished that feat at Spa 91" he could at least stay neutral and say after "Ayrton Senna and Nelson Piquet in spa 91....." Or he could have skipped it altogether. You could see on Nelsiho's face
that he was not pleased with that remark. He is frustrated. He knows he will always be in the shadow of his father and his team is not taking him seriously either.
Did you noticed after he failed to qualify for Q2 in Hockenheim, how he rushed to Pat Symonds with all kind of excuses, but Pat just didnt listen, he kept talking on the radio with whom ever he was takling to to that point.

Nico Rosberg is the simmilar case, but I think Keke is handlig the thing in a much more sensible way than Nelson Sr. And his son is Nico he isn't Keke, he is not even finnish. And that helps a lot. Naming your son after you isnt going to bring him much good. Everyone sees you as reincarnation of some sort. I remembered documentary that I watched few years ago, about the famous spanish painter Salvador Dali, who was named after his brodher who died at the age of two. He was born after the death of his brother, and parents gave him the same name; Salvador. He said that that was always the biggest problem and source of frustration for him throughout his entire life.
Because he always got impression that he is just a replacement for original Salvador Dali. It must be the simmilar with Nelsinho. His name is becoming a burden.

Still both drivers Nico and Nelinho are good enough to be in F1. Proof for that is in some way Andreas Lauda. His background is the same, yet he has no talent, therefore
is not in F1. Suddelny life seems so simple, but. What if Andreas wasn't actually pushed so hard as Nico and Nelson were, what if his carrer wasnt steered so that his talent can
grow, what if just didnt put enough effort in it. Niki was going through torrid times back at early - mid 80, plane crash, shortage of money, returning to F1 to collect some money to settle company debts. And than, when he recuperated, maybe it was too late for Anders. Bottom line to all this is that drivers are not horses. You can buy the horse from the high quality breed , train him, and he will be winner, simplay because his father and mother was winners. Human beings are more complicated. Humans tend to have feelings, thoughts,
will, determination, pride, grief, they tend to hate eachother, they tend to be jelous, they tend to have other interests than racing.

Names are not what F1 needs nowadays. What F1 needs are characters that will repeat themselves from time to time, regardles of their names,
you know characers like; the hermit (Clark), the rebel (Stewart, DC), the joker(G.Hill), the lunatic (de'cesaris), the politician(Prost),
, the inventor (Gurney), the mechanic (Brabham) and than ofcourse the excentric aristocrates (Bira, Tripps, Beaufort).
I'm not saying that thay should go digging the Scottish farms in order to find new Clark or that they should look for the new Prost, no they will
actually emerge by themselves. They will emerge if you let young drivers climb the ledder in the natural way. And than the best will climb to the top.
And history of the motorsport teach us that the best were never plain and colourless persons, as Nelson jr. and a few others from the current breed are.
Main issue as I said before is nepotism but more so favouring certain drivers that will fit into company profile. It is like picking colours and furniture for the
company headquaters, they must match company colours. And that is sad thing.

Fom the current breed of drivers we have only RK, DC and MW who are actually normal persons rather than mannequins, corporate dolls or simply robots. There were however KR and FA who were interesting but they grew into really grumpy men nowadays, pushing reporters(kimi) and constantly accusing own teams(alonso) without even thinking that MS approach
would help much more.

Back to the Bruno Senna and fathers-sons theories, I wandered too off topic.
There is one category that I did not mention and that is the category where Bruno Senna could be fit into. Those are incredibly strong people
(much like Mario Andretti with his rough childhood), that category are orphans. As I mentioned, incredibly strong and independent people.
Jacquess Villeneuve and Damon Hill (well technically not real orphans because they sitll had mothers, but in the light of this text they
should be considered orphans) They were left without their fathers in the delicate time of their lives, and were left somewhat unguided.
Also both of them developed interest in other things than car racing.

JV wanted to become alpine skiier while DH was interested in Motorcycle
racing. But somehow their carrers took the turn and they found them selves in F1. Was it the task as Nelson Jr. had. NO. It was hard. They had
the surname, even helmet design(DH) but the father was not around to pull strings and to guide. The end result however is quite satisfactory.
JV infact won more than GV did. He matched him statistically after 19 races in F1 (argentina 97) when they were tied on race wins and were both
once championship runner ups. Than JV went on to win the title and statisticaly overshadowed his father. Also there is title at CART an a win at indy500.
One thing JV never won, and his father did, was the hearts of the people, but statistically JV did more.

DH had a carred similar to his father's more wins one title less, but as JV, wasn't generally loved as much as his father was. But those two were
succesfull. Another orphan that achieved great success in F1 was Johen Rindt, he lost his parents in the bomb raid, and was brought up by his uncle.
Theories about his fearless drives were that he actually drove on the limit because he wasn't emotionally attached to anyone, and he didnt care.
He travelled from venue to venue spending his wealth (he inherited big amount of money when he was 18 from bussines his parents run, and the money was deposited until Jochen's maturity) on racing. He had the talent and was spotted by Roy Salvatori (I may be wrong here) and the rest is history, later ecclestone became his manager
placed him into top teams etc...

And finally now we have Bruno Senna Lalli, double orphan(His real father died and his uncle and spiritual father also died -hence double), travelling around the europe,racing, away from his home.
He has name and helmet colour(simmilarity to DH), is wealthy (simmilarity to Rindt), thare was a gap, actually it is not a gap, more so that he started late (simmilarity to JV)
and he is there knocking on the door of STR, half owned by Gerhard Berger, a close fammily friend. At first glance it seems perfect.

But somehow i got the impression that Bruno is actually affraid. Affraid that he will fail and bleech Senna name. And than there are those details. that sentence:
"...wait till you see my nephew" did him more harm than good. Of course famous name, sentences like those, can help, in particular at early stages, but the guidance is important also.
Berger what ever his role is could be the right man to guide him. But I just feel that he should have started his carrer as Bruno Lalli. ofcourse everyon would know who he is. But
it just wouldn be so obvious. If he goes into F1 next year, you can imagine all the hype that will be going on. Ever since 01.05.94 majority of F1 fans
are waiting for the new messiah, and now messiah is here, with the same surname, same physical apperance (only cheek being slightly different),
same helmet design. And the pressure will mount. Enough to brake him. With Bruno Lalli it would be easier, even if the trade off would be few sponsors less.
I do not know, time will tell. But one thing is fore sure Bruno Senna had completely opposite path to the F1 and is completely different (and stronger mentally) person that Nelson Piquet is. And if he fails he will fail only because of the burden of his name and his background. And the impact of that burden on his psyche.
His current performance show just that. He wants to win the overall GP2 title. He wants it bad, because looking at his uncle's carrer he failed in british F3.
But did he really fail? Or is it the world and some journalists that think he failed. He didnt win British F3, his uncle did. But he came 3rd, while in contention for the title. As MS once said, "i do not really care if I win the championship, as long as I am able to fight for it until the end of the season" he said it at Suzuka '98 if I'm recalling correctly. The point is; good drivers will always be somwhere near the top of the table, but only good drivers with some luck will eventually win the championship (Piquet-Mansell '87 example, or Ronnie Petersons carrer, he was great, even greater than Andretti, but he was never champion). It this light his 3rd place at British f3 is not a failure. The failure would be, if he couldn't adapt to new enviroment(Michael Andretti) or to a new team, or if he would be just lost in space (Nelsihno Piquet) that are failures.

I am not defending Bruno, nor his quest to get F1 seat, I am just saying that knowing who he is we see him differently, you know, "nomen est omen".
my advice to Bruno is: "race under the name Bruno Lalli (but I think, it is too late unfortunately)

Way too much waffle....

At the end of the day like any driver, regardless of their name, if they're good enough they'll be there, if they're not then their career will hit a brick wall.

Not alway Ralf stayed in F1 way longer that he should have. Infact I still think he only got to F1 when he did due to his name.