Williams FW16 - The Remains

super__alonso Wrote:
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> Remember the start at Magny Cours? No one could do
> that unless someone stalled.

Yeah, because the pole sitter had been doing standing starts every other week... it was his first competitive standing start for 18 months or so. All Schumacher really did was take the 2nd placed guy, and frankly you saw differences similar to that this decade with launch and traction control.

if a certain team or driver is dominating you´ll always hear rumours about cheating

n00binio Wrote:
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> if a certain team or driver is dominating you´ll
> always hear rumors about cheating

Only in 1994, it was far from subtle, and clearly in our faces all over TV. Why was it that Benetton, a fairly average team suddenly jumped to the top with almost to contenders?

Well going by that theory, Williams were cheating in 1991, McLaren in 1997, Williams in 2001 and Renault in 2005.

There were quite a few dubious things about 1994, particularly surrounding the top teams and lead drivers, but I don't think we can simply describe as fact that Benetton were cheating - especially when there's little clear evidence for it, other than a driver or 2 standing next to the track listening and voicing their thoughts. It's hardly the most scientific of tests.

I should mention that there were no ECUs back then, which made the situation for all teams hard to police TC and LC etc.

n00binio Wrote:
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> if a certain team or driver is dominating you´ll
> always hear rumours about cheating

I agree mate, in my opinion Benetton were made an example of by the FIA to improve the season

F1 had just lost Senna, Mansell and Prost were gone, there had no champions left now, no big stars which is why they got Mansell back

Benetton had taken advantage of Williams problems, and Schumi was dominating so much that TV ratings were going down, so the FIA knew that they had to liven up the season. So the TC rumours. The Benettons were checked and they were found to have TC but so did the Ferraris and the Mclarens. However the TC was not active, it was just old programming from the season before that the 3 teams had not removed, they had just deactivated it.

Then at Silverstone, we saw that Schumi was given a black flag, which then became a suspended ban which he appealed against allowing him to race in Germany so as not to disappoint his fans. Then his appeal was rejected and he had to sit out Italy & Portugal. He was also disqualified at Spa because of his skid block being to worn down, even though Benetton showed the FIA footage of Schumi spinning and doing the damage to it.

Just look at the number of points that Schumacher lost that season, he lost at best 40 points to Hill. Those just from Disqualifications he would of certainly won the title with them

Then there were the allegations that Benetton had cheated with their Fuel Rig which resulted in the Pitlane Fire. Which according to Steve Matchett was not true. Benetton had asked to remove the piece from the fuel Rig and were told by the company who produced them that they could and it would not affect the Rig in any way. Its explained in Life in the fast lane by Steve alot better

Seriously I don't think Benetton did any thing wrong in 94, some things they did were silly, but they certainly didn't cheat

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Races: 163 - Wins: 23 - Pole Positions: 24 - Fastest Laps: 22
Season 9: Constructors' Champions



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2008 03:30AM by Ferrari2007.

gav Wrote:
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> Well going by that theory, Williams were cheating
> in 1991, McLaren in 1997, Williams in 2001 and
> Renault in 2005.
>
> There were quite a few dubious things about 1994,
> particularly surrounding the top teams and lead
> drivers, but I don't think we can simply describe
> as fact that Benetton were cheating - especially
> when there's little clear evidence for it, other
> than a driver or 2 standing next to the track
> listening and voicing their thoughts. It's hardly
> the most scientific of tests.

Well it was a fact they did find a TC system in the Benetton software. But as usual, F1 didn't have the rules nailed down and couldn't prove they used it, and therefore the car was "legal".

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I remember in a documentary hearing someone say that Senna, driving behind Schumacher, said he could not believe he didn't have TC, after observing his rear wheels for so long and especially around certain corners.

or he couldn´t believe this guy was obviously faster than him

Well he wasn't, the Benneton B194 was a very sorted car that had, as Dave pointed out, illegal software on it. The FW16 by contrast handled badly at the beginning of the season, once it was sorted it was a match for the Benneton.

"I should mention that there were no ECUs back then, which made the situation for all teams hard to police TC and LC etc."

Actually there were ECUs back then.

But they were not standardized. Each team had different ones. In other words, they had control of what was to 'remain' on the ECUs after any given race.

DaveEllis Wrote:
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> Well it was a fact they did find a TC system in
> the Benetton software. But as usual, F1 didn't
> have the rules nailed down and couldn't prove they
> used it, and therefore the car was "legal".


Also some other teams had it more or less, so no need to say any word about Benetton beeing illegal.. These rumours are so strongly alive only because 2 reasons. Some ex team mate(s) wich Schumi had did find it so easy to hide how slow you really were with just saying your team mate had better and illegal car. And that 2nd thing is that how somebody could be faster than "god", specially if he is German?

Kimi, so, Massa Fernando Sebastian is faster than you. Can you confirm you understood that message?

Also some other teams had it more or less, so no need to say any word about Benetton beeing illegal.. These rumours are so strongly alive only because 2 reasons. Some ex team mate(s) wich Schumi had did find it so easy to hide how slow you really were with just saying your team mate had better and illegal car. And that 2nd thing is that how somebody could be faster than "god", specially if he is German?

No other car was found with a TC system installed. The FIA DID find a TC system installed on the Benetton but could not prove it was activated. The only team that had it installed as a fact are Benetton, everyone else is just stories.

Of course ex-Benetton mechanics actually admitted the car was completely illegal anyway. Fuel filters, ride heights, ECUs, and thats only the stuff that they found.

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DaveEllis schrieb:
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> Of course ex-Benetton mechanics actually admitted
> the car was completely illegal anyway. Fuel
> filters, ride heights, ECUs, and thats only the
> stuff that they found.

some people admitt everything just to get a bit of media attention

yup, lilke those cocaine stories

n00binio Wrote:
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> DaveEllis schrieb:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Of course ex-Benetton mechanics actually
> admitted
> > the car was completely illegal anyway. Fuel
> > filters, ride heights, ECUs, and thats only the
> > stuff that they found.
>
> some people admitt everything just to get a bit of
> media attention


well then one would assume if these stories were false, Bennetton/Renault etc could/would have taken these individuals to court for libel

Sim

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All Hail The New York Giants - Winners of Superbowl XXI, XXV and XLII!

"I'd love to know what goes on in that crazy head of yours sometimes, Sim..." - Locke Cole

Like also Kimi could have done with these news about him cheating his wife with under age girl.. So also this is automaticly true now?

Kimi, so, Massa Fernando Sebastian is faster than you. Can you confirm you understood that message?

Mclaren had fully auto gears in their system and this was used at Imola and they were told dont use it again.

Ferrari had TC is theirs as well, Larini said they used it in a practise sesson but turned it off for offical sessons, ferrari said he had been misuderstood and that he meant test sessons over the winter.

Ferrari also got told off in Canada 1994 as many teams felt that they did not cut a big enough hole in the air box.

Its hard to back all the stories up though as they were in Autosport and I no longer have them from 1994.

Bruninho Wrote:
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> ...The cockpit too, it
> was too tight for him as it was built for
> Mansell/Prost. He asked them to make room between
> him and the steering wheel so he could work
> without scrapping his hands/arms around the
> cockpit. Running out of time, they chose the
> cheapest, quickest and unsafe solution.

I'd like to see your source for this. Have you seen the three of them side by side? Mansell is noticeably bigger built than Prost, so this actually makes no sense...

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Well Adrian Newey is well known for making the cockpits as small as possible in his designs for aero efficiency reasons, that goes back to the Leyton House days. How Nige managed to fit in those cars without having to be shoehorned remains a mystery to me.

Senna was used to a bigger cockpit at Mclaren and had trouble adapting to the Williams that required a lot of steering input during that part of the season to go fast without banging his hands on the sides.
If Williams had designed a cockpit like the Benetton or Ferrari of that year (both had high noses) i reckon Senna would have probably survived the crash at the Tamburello as they had much higher sides than the Williams.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2008 07:06PM by mikef1.