Customer cars idea killed off?

DaveEllis Wrote:
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> Clearly not that skint, running factory backed
> teams in ALMS, LMS, Le Mans, Grand Am GTs, Grand
> Am DPs, NASCAR (all tiers), V8 Supercar
> Championship, World Touring Car Championship,
> British Touring Car Championship, Speed GT World
> Series and a whole range of US lower series.


Explains why they keep losing so much money then!

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Everyone knows that million-to-one chances happen 9 times out of 10; indeed, it's a common requirement in fairy tales. If the human didn't have to overcome huge odds, what would be the point? Terry Pratchett - The Science Of Discworld

GPGSL S5 Race driver for IED.

There needs to be someone there to carry on racing when the economy goes up the @#$%& and all the manufacturers pull out...

This situation has come about because too much emphasis has been put on manufacturers. 10 years ago, the teams looked like this:

Arrows Yamaha
Williams Renault
Ferrari
Benetton Renault
McLaren Mercedes
Jordan Peugeot
Prost Mugen-Honda
Sauber Petronas
Tyrrell Ford
Minardi Hart
Stewart Ford
Lola Ford (lol)

only Ferrari built their own car and engine. Look at this season:

McLaren, Renault, Ferrari, Honda, BMW, Toyota, RedBull-Renault, Williams-Toyota, STR-Ferrari, Spyker-Ferrari, Super Aguri.

If economic conditions made an F1 team unattractive, who would be left? I reckon out of that list, only Williams and whoever owns Spyker now, with some customer engines off the shelf.



RedSam
Winner: Not the Nickv Comment of the Year 2009
Due to the voting system in Germany, Governments are always made up of coalitions of different parties. At the last election, an almost unprecidented result saw the CDU/CSU (rough equivilant of the Conservatives) go into Government with the SPD (rough equivilant of Labour)

Did Prodrive ever intend to design and race their own car? Or were they intending to run customer cars forever? Would seem odd given the success the Banbury organisation have had with WRC, BTCC, FIA GT etc etc. They are clearly capable of high standard engineering. And its not like they haven't "just" got the authority to race

I dont think that any team entering now has much hope for the future unless they are tied to a manufacturer in more than a producer-client basis. Williams is the exception, but thats because they've been here forever and have the race wins in the cupboard.

I suspect that Prodrive would have run a customer chassis for the first year and then started building a new one behind the scenes when they have actual data from their own testing.

Irrelevant anyway as it looks like its not gonna happen.

As far as I'm aware, ProDrive only build the WRC cars themselves. The others are only modifications of road production vehicles. Much like they'd do with McLaren's car, i suppose. Run with it for a year, modify it in future, before attempting their own team. But meh, doesn't seem like it'll happen now.

@red sam. if all manufacturers pull out it will be belssing for F1. Not only that Williams and Spyker would remain but all of a sudden Jordans, Minardis, AGSes, Simteks, Pacifics, Lolas, Larrouses, Arrowses etc. will appear equipped with customary Cosworths or Renaults. And it would be cheaper with racing even better than with Toyotas and RA107s

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are you blind? -no, I'm deaf, can't you see? -no, I'm blind.

for that to happen though, every manufacturer would have to pull out at the same time, else no one will come in because it woul be impossible to compete on track and off it

Sim

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All Hail The New York Giants - Winners of Superbowl XXI, XXV and XLII!

"I'd love to know what goes on in that crazy head of yours sometimes, Sim..." - Locke Cole

Those of you who don't seem to know much about customer cars, heres some excellent posts about it.

When Tazio Nuvolari wanted to make the switch from motorcycling to car racing, he purchased two Bugatti's and started a team with Achille Varzi. Did you know that the first Monaco Grand Prix was won by W.G. Williams, driving a Bugatti he owned and painted green for Britain? The greatest victory of Giuseppe Campari's career came when he fended off fellow privateer Phi Phi Etancelin to win the 1933 Grand Prix de l'A.C.F. in his self-owned Maserati. Marcel Lehoux and Prince Bira are just two from that era who managed to become highly successful without the help of a factory -- and then there were the enthusiasts, like Earl Howe.

But you've already established you "don't stick to history". So, did you know that when he came over to Europe, Fangio carved out his reputation by winning at Montlhery, Pau, and Perpignan in a Maserati the Argentinian government had given him? The uncrowned champion of the '40's, Jean-Pierre Wimille, earned his invitation to the Alfa factory team by winning events in one of the few Alfa 308's ever built.

Something more modern suit your taste? What about Rob Walker winning nine championship Grand Prix's with Maurice Trintignant and Stirling Moss in private Cooper's and Lotus'? James Hunt scoring a slew of podium's and good results in a private March in 1973 before Lord Hesketh elected to build his own car (and run out of money doing it)?

Or maybe "success" all depends on how it is measured. Mimmo Dei, Carel Godin de Beaufort, Reg and Tim Parnell, and Jo Bonnier, even if they couldn't contend for a win, added some much needed character to the paddock whenever they elected to show up.

But lastly, if a team would rather purchase a year-old car and "participate to finish eleventh or twelfth", isn't that their problem? Do you realize the amount of exposure you gain from just being a bit player in the Formula One fraternity? And just because you want "every team to manufacturer their own car" does not mean that's the way it has always been (or the way it should be).

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The first McLaren's were actually modified Cooper's that Bruce took down to the Tasman Championship for him and Phil Hill, but when he made a clean break in 1966 he did it with his own car. He toyed with a Ford and Serenissima engine, before in 1967 finally settling for a B.R.M. V8 -- when that burnt out, Dan Gurney took him into his Eagle team as No. 2 (Ginther having retired after failing to qualify at Monte Carlo and Indianapolis).

As for the Scuderia Ferrari, Enzo was the "official" racing arm of Alfa Romeo, and with a few general exceptions, like 1933, the year that Alfa withdrew their P3's and rested on their laurels leaving him to field outdated Alfa Monza's, he was the factory. 1938 was the last year of that arrangement. In 1939, the Grand Prix Alfa's were all entered privately -- the factory instead concentrated on Voiturette racing. Part of the reason why Ferrari decided to start his own company at Maranello is that he wanted to prove his success was not all because of Alfa.

As for Formula One, no one ever got their hands on an Alfa Romeo Alfetta. Surprisingly, however, there were several private Ferrari's that showed up early, including Tony Vandervell's Thinwall Special and Peter Whitehead. Rudi Fischer made his name in one in 1952 and was even offered a place in the Ferrari factory team, being forced to turn down the offer as he was more of a gentleman driver.

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zeppelin101 Wrote:
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> F1 - the never ending joke.


agree with you mate 100%

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Scuderia Ferrari Forever

and ferrari "brought" few Lancia D50s by the end of 1955 and ran them as Lancia-Ferraris through 1956.

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are you blind? -no, I'm deaf, can't you see? -no, I'm blind.

bought and he was given them by the italian government after lancia went bamkrupt iirc

Sim

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All Hail The New York Giants - Winners of Superbowl XXI, XXV and XLII!

"I'd love to know what goes on in that crazy head of yours sometimes, Sim..." - Locke Cole

Red Sam Wrote:
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> Lola Ford (lol)

That is the most deserved LOL I have read in a while. What a complete @#$%&-up that was. Couldn't organise a pissup in a brewery. And whoever thought Vincenzo Sospiri or whatever he was called would be quick, not to mention Rosset, who was one of the biggest n00bs ever.

Wasn't it Lola Lamborghini (that's probably spelled wrong too but hey it's early) though?

Might want to read up on why Lola failed, and why they were even on the 1997 grid.

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loque Wrote:
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> Red Sam Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Lola Ford (lol)
>
> That is the most deserved LOL I have read in a
> while. What a complete @#$%&-up that was.
> Couldn't organise a pissup in a brewery. And
> whoever thought Vincenzo Sospiri or whatever he
> was called would be quick, not to mention Rosset,
> who was one of the biggest n00bs ever.
>
> Wasn't it Lola Lamborghini (that's probably
> spelled wrong too but hey it's early) though?


I don't think it's out of the question to expect that 2 drivers who finished in 1st and 2nd in the F3000 championship might have some talent at least. Infact with today's scoring system Rosset would even have 2 points to his name!

It was Lola-Ford when they entered in 1997, they had Lamborghini's back in 1989/90 so it says, I think they were partnered with Larrousse back then. Maybe someone who actually watched F1 back then can confirm this?

Yes Larousse had Lambo engines back in the early '90s.

sasjag Wrote:
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> bought and he was given them by the italian
> government after lancia went bamkrupt iirc


lol at you for correcting Brnco's spelling, then making a typo yourself

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RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael

i was correcting his grammar, i would neevr correct anyones spelling for exactly that reason :P

Sim

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All Hail The New York Giants - Winners of Superbowl XXI, XXV and XLII!

"I'd love to know what goes on in that crazy head of yours sometimes, Sim..." - Locke Cole

bestobritish Wrote:
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> Do you have a source for chevrolet coming in,
> because they are owned by GM who are absaloutly
> skint!!


Yeah GM are that skint that they let Holden invest 2 billion dollars to create a multiform chassis for big rear wheel drive cars.

@sasjaq & muks, there was nothing to correct I deliberately wrote "brought" that's why I put it into ""

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are you blind? -no, I'm deaf, can't you see? -no, I'm blind.

did you mean "to buy" as in "Ferrari bought a few Lancias", because "brought" means "to bring" e.g. "I brought my new car to work to show everybody".

even many English-speaking people don't know the difference between "brought" and "bought" (Chet being the main offender here, no offence Chet ), so don't worry Brnco.

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RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael