Villeneuve vs. Schumacher at Jerez 1997...My my....

Senna, Schumacher, the best drivers of their generations? Probably. Both capable of running their opponents off the road to win at all costs? Definitely. The win at all costs mentality is what makes them champions.

NickR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Senna, Schumacher, the best drivers of their
> generations? Probably. Both capable of running
> their opponents off the road to win at all costs?
> Definitely. The win at all costs mentality is what
> makes them champions.


yes this is true not only champions but legends as well and this is what sets them apart from the other 1 or 2 time champions and most ppl appreciate this kind of strong attitude. ofcourse there are still some ppl like LS who seem to prefer the softy guys who dont bear this mentality at the same level of these 2 legends and only finished their career with 1/2 championships to their name DH, JV, MH...pfft.

NickR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Senna, Schumacher, the best drivers of their
> generations? Probably. Both capable of running
> their opponents off the road to win at all costs?
> Definitely. The win at all costs mentality is what
> makes them champions.


IMHO this is incorrect. Senna won 2 championships (88 and 91) fair and square, recovering from a stall at the start of the japanese 88 gp and leading the race in 91 when Mansell lost his brakes miles behind him. What happened in 89 - Prost taking the wrong racing line to block Senna through the chicane (look the onboard camera, and then look the same manoeuvre of Senna over Nannini in the same corner later. Prost obviously did it wrong), and obviously because HE HAD the advantage - contributed to what he did in 90, because he was robbed in 89 and it was clear that he didnt wanted to be robbed again in 90, and Ballestre was contributing to it by giving an order not to change the pole side (because it was on the dirty side of the track, denying the advantage of the pole position and giving it to Prost, who was in 2nd and in the clean side). And he lost the chance of avoiding a crash in the first corner. So what Senna said, using the wrong words, yeah, but for me was "If they are cheating against me again, I'll cheat against them too, end of discussion". And it happened, a 89-payback, revenge, call it whatever u want, to Prost in the first corner at the start of the 1990 japanese gp. He did it on purpose, guys. I'd do the same.

While MS did his dirty tricks without any good reason, just because he couldnt accept the defeat in 94 because he did a mistake in a corner at Adelaide. No need to comment about 97 and Monaco'06. What I am saying is, "MS hands are now much more dirty than Senna's hands".

---

"I'm an artist, the track is my canvas, and the car is my brush."

ehh? fine you take away the controversial championship of 1994. you can even take away the easy championships of 1995, 2001, 2002, 2004 and the guy still also has 2 hard-earned championships to his name.

still better than the recent champions who have their "easy" championships gifted on a platter

alonso - 2005
hakkinen - 1998, 1999
villeneuve - 1997 (and he almost managed to make a mess of that one too)
hill - 1996

so you can see he is not the only one, this is how it goes in the sport when competing at such high levels, some years there will always be that package better than all the rest.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2007 09:32PM by Astro.

? I werent talking about the championships that he won easily because n00bens werent allowed to race against him... but u did it for me, thanks.

And Hakkinen was a great driver, he deserved both titles.

---

"I'm an artist, the track is my canvas, and the car is my brush."

"N00bens" was so allowed to race for championship as anybody can be but that n00b found way to get so much behind in points that it was more smart to do like all big teams do (all with own styles) and support that driver who can fight for championship.

Btw you ("Senna" said that nationality doesnt have anything to do with what driver U people support. Can I laught? In there hate against Germans is maybe even bigger than in England..

Kimi, so, Massa Fernando Sebastian is faster than you. Can you confirm you understood that message?

OFC u can laugh, but I dont hate MS because he's german, but yes because of what he did in 94, 97, 2001 and 2006.

---

"I'm an artist, the track is my canvas, and the car is my brush."

I was talking about Brazilian people overall like also U was talking about..

Also I dont like Senna and its not because he was Brazilian but because of things what he did on track.



EDIT:

Just as information for others I like Brazil a lot and some drivers from there. Even their knowledge about world is so perfect that lots of Brazilians thinks for excample that Finland is just country in fairytales..

Kimi, so, Massa Fernando Sebastian is faster than you. Can you confirm you understood that message?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2007 10:17PM by IWE.

LOL. Whats wrong with what he did on track? Whats wrong in winning a race with only the sixth gear, with 10 laps to go? Or defending a lead with 5 laps to go at Monaco, with Mansell right behind his rearwing, and he had worn tyres?

Whats wrong in driving an awesome wet race with a shity toleman-hart, almost taking the win at Monaco'84 in his first season?

Whats wrong with his awesone qualifying lap at Monaco, when he demolised Prost's provisional pole laptime by 1 second? Even Prost couldnt believe in it, and Ron Dennis spent all the day laughing when he was asked about it...

Whats wrong with Suzuka'88, when he was flying past 14 cars, no matter where they were, to conquer his first title in style?

Whats wrong with first race win in stupid wet weather conditions at Estoril'85, when he managed to keep the car glued to the track while others were going off-road?

Whats wrong with Donnington 93? You should complain about MS squeezing Senna at the start of the race instead of Senna's beautiful first lap to take the lead.

And what's wrong with Interlagos 1993 when he did an amazing overtaking manoeuvre over Hill, similar to Ronaldinho or Pele dribbling the defenders, to take his second home race win?

I could go on and name other races where he was awesome, a pleasure to watch. I dont see a reason (in these things he did on track) to hate him... In other hand, I can name various dirt tricks MS did on track but its hard to name races where he was awesome. I cant remember a single race and I asked it to others. They also couldnt do it! Hmmm... Interlagos'06? Nah, he had a demoniac car in this day, look at Massa, both Ferraris were stupidly fast. And some drivers let him go, like Kubica and Doornbos, while Fisi did one of his amazing stupid moves ahead of him. Kimi was the only who tried to fight him in that race.

The only dirt thing Senna had to do and maybe you could complain but he was right because Prost did it with him in 89 - was Suzuka 90. And theres nothing more u could complain about Senna's on-track behavior...


EDIT - I dont know about the other brazilians here, but I never thought those things about Finland. I also supported Hakkinen for years when he was fighthing with Schumacher.

---

"I'm an artist, the track is my canvas, and the car is my brush."




Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2007 10:31PM by Senna.

Michael had way much better races, like Imola where he defended his first place for like 19 laps, and the renault was way better back then, and at monaco in 97, go look for yourself by how much he beated the god-like willias car..,
and ok, take away the 94, and 97 champìonships, that still leaves him with 5...

and what he did in Monaco was no worst than what Alonzo did in Hungary, IT's a FACT, he is hated because he is German, it's in some peoples menatlity's

Nothing wrong with his great moments but anybody cud wrote thatkind list also from historical moments of Schumacher on track..

almost whole race with 4th or 5th gear (what ever) and finishing 2nd.

many fantastic shows on wet (and dry) weather.. flying past more cars than you can count.. with as demonic car as senna had in 1988 and with as shitty car as senna had on some season(s)

we can complain senna driving wheel on wheel (whats the difference beetween that and squeezing?)

Taking pole-positions with totally crazy differences to others..

...

Both have had fantastic moments on track and moments what they both hope (in somebody's case hoped) people to forget..



Why you are mixing also football on this conversation? It only tells how patriotic people are like also Finnish people.. "we are the best Oh yeah..".

For me its frigging same from where teams, drivers, players, people etc. are..

Kimi, so, Massa Fernando Sebastian is faster than you. Can you confirm you understood that message?

I remember Senna weaving from side to side at Hockenheim (correct me if i'm wrong) to stop Prost in a much faster Williams ( see above). Also Mansell and Senna wheel to wheel at Estoril (I think) not dangerous? I admire the guy (I am a Prost fan) and I admire Schumacher. They both are guilty however you want to fluff it up of ungentlemanly tactics. That is also why they will both be revered in years to come. I often wonder how peoples reactions to Senna changed after he died. I am old enough to remember that he was considered to be very much like Scumacher is. Supremely gifted but flawed. I feel that only after his death was he truly appreciated for his talent as his driving 'tactics' were quite often the headlines. Schumacher however has not died and achieved such an elevated status amongst GP fans. We can type here all night but FACT M.S. most GP wins, M.S. most GP Poles, M.S most Campionships, etc, etc. I hope in years to come, a bit like Senna, we forget the tantrums, the 'cheating', the 'do anything to win', and we remember the great drives, the ability to drive at 100% for a full race distance, the resurgance of a dead and buried Ferrari, and the amazing talent that I will talk to my Grandchildren about when F1 is just a remote control race, that is Michael Schumacher. Consider yourselves lucky to have witnessed it, I believe his records will never be beaten.

Senna Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> LOL. Whats wrong with what he did on track? Whats
> wrong in winning a race with only the sixth gear,
> with 10 laps to go? Or defending a lead with 5
> laps to go at Monaco, with Mansell right behind
> his rearwing, and he had worn tyres?
>
> Whats wrong in driving an awesome wet race with a
> shity toleman-hart, almost taking the win at
> Monaco'84 in his first season?
>
> Whats wrong with his awesone qualifying lap at
> Monaco, when he demolised Prost's provisional pole
> laptime by 1 second? Even Prost couldnt believe in
> it, and Ron Dennis spent all the day laughing when
> he was asked about it...
>
> Whats wrong with Suzuka'88, when he was flying
> past 14 cars, no matter where they were, to
> conquer his first title in style?
>
> Whats wrong with first race win in stupid wet
> weather conditions at Estoril'85, when he managed
> to keep the car glued to the track while others
> were going off-road?
>
> Whats wrong with Donnington 93? You should
> complain about MS squeezing Senna at the start of
> the race instead of Senna's beautiful first lap to
> take the lead.
>
> And what's wrong with Interlagos 1993 when he did
> an amazing overtaking manoeuvre over Hill, similar
> to Ronaldinho or Pele dribbling the defenders, to
> take his second home race win?
>
> I could go on and name other races where he was
> awesome, a pleasure to watch. I dont see a reason
> (in these things he did on track) to hate him...
> In other hand, I can name various dirt tricks MS
> did on track but its hard to name races where he
> was awesome. I cant remember a single race and I
> asked it to others. They also couldnt do it!
> Hmmm... Interlagos'06? Nah, he had a demoniac car
> in this day, look at Massa, both Ferraris were
> stupidly fast. And some drivers let him go, like
> Kubica and Doornbos, while Fisi did one of his
> amazing stupid moves ahead of him. Kimi was the
> only who tried to fight him in that race.
>
> The only dirt thing Senna had to do and maybe you
> could complain but he was right because Prost did
> it with him in 89 - was Suzuka 90. And theres
> nothing more u could complain about Senna's
> on-track behavior...
>
>
> EDIT - I dont know about the other brazilians
> here, but I never thought those things about
> Finland. I also supported Hakkinen for years when
> he was fighthing with Schumacher.

*roflez* please step away from the stash my friend.

and Crakkinen had it easier than most, he almost flubbered his second easy championship ala' JV style. 1998 (far superior car and tires than his opponent) to the point where even Mr Next Year will Be My Year was usually within 0.3sec of him most laps. 1999 he had no opponent who happened to be recuperating at home 2/3rds of the season lol doesnt get any easier than that. point being that most drivers have had it easy in some years thanks to better overall package. hakkinen was more fortunate than most in the company of guys like JV, DH...never really had an opponent who was on par to mount a real challenge.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2007 11:17PM by Astro.

"Senna I remember Senna weaving from side to side at Hockenheim (correct me if i'm wrong) to stop Prost in a much faster Williams"

I think the race you are refering to was the the British GP in 1993. Senna did not weave but he put his car exactly where he knew it would be very hard for Prost to pass, yes he squeezed Prost at one point but not dangerously.

Also i don't remember Senna and Mansell weaving at Estoril. Did you mean that fabulous pass that Mansell made on Senna at Barcelona 1991?

"and Crakkinen had it easier than most, he almost flubbered his second easy championship ala' JV style"

I think you've been dipping in the stash bag tbh.

yeah? how does he manage to nearly lose it to a guy like irvine of all people then? lol far superior car (and far superior tires in 1998 and he makes tough work of that) not to mention discrete team orders from mclaren using DC as a guinea pig...and still he manages to make tough work of it again lol truly one of the most over-rated champions of all time. atleast in the case of DH and JV most ppl know that their championships were just a gift from the team and not having any opponents to challenge them strongly for it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2007 11:37PM by Astro.

u complain about mclaren team orders with DC and Mika, but u forget that Ferrari did the same with MS/Irvine and MS/n00bens....

---

"I'm an artist, the track is my canvas, and the car is my brush."

mikef1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "and Crakkinen had it easier than most, he almost
> flubbered his second easy championship ala' JV
> style"
>
> I think you've been dipping in the stash bag tbh.


Indeed.

---

"I'm an artist, the track is my canvas, and the car is my brush."

Senna Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> u complain about mclaren team orders with DC and
> Mika, but u forget that Ferrari did the same with
> MS/Irvine and MS/n00bens....


the duh-oh-meter is smashing off the charts right now, well done charlie umm ofcourse they did nobody can deny that but so did mclaren although in not so quite the blatant fashion as ferrari but just as bad.

and hey this n00bens guy you keep talking bout...he must really be crap to be called a n00b eh? how many wins does he have compared to his team mate? probably not very many right or...?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2007 12:56AM by Astro.

Astro Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> yes this is true not only champions but legends
> as well and this is what sets them apart from the
> other 1 or 2 time champions and most ppl
> appreciate this kind of strong attitude. ofcourse
> there are still some ppl like LS who seem to
> prefer the softy guys who dont bear this mentality
> at the same level of these 2 legends and only
> finished their career with 1/2 championships to
> their name DH, JV, MH...pfft.


If you look at past world champions as a bench mark, how many had to resort to those kind of underhand tactics of delibrately ramming into rivals?

I find it quite sad that those 2 ( and prost ) had to resort to cheating rather race on equal terms, best shall win.


Not " i realise i'm not going to win so i'm going to delibrately cheat and win unfairly".


Wheres the sport in that?

Man & machine vs man & machine, if you are'nt good enough then you dont win.

If you cant win then you certainly dont try and delibrate hamper your opponent.

accept your beaten by a better man.

Anything other than doing your best, simply isnt a sport.

Anyone that condones that behaviour otherwise frankly doesnt have a clue.




LS's Tip of the week
ESSENTIAL OILS aren't essential unless you're an engine, a gearbox or a twat



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2007 01:01AM by LS..