Villeneuve vs. Schumacher at Jerez 1997...My my....
Posted by Jagdpanzer
And amazingly he didnt hit any armco during this " mistake" that would have damaged his car shortly before the next session i.e the race.
The Stewards report after examining the telemetry from Schumachers Ferrari
“Having set a fast time in sector one, the driver lost time in sector two, arrived at turn 18 [Rascasse] at a speed little if any different from his previous fastest lap, and braked with such force that his front wheels locked up, requiring the driver to regain control of the car.
“Having compared all relevant data, the stewards can find no justifiable reason for the driver to have braked with such undue, excessive and unusual pressure at this part of the circuit, and are therefore left with no alternative but to conclude that the driver deliberately stopped his car on the circuit in the last few minutes of qualifying, at a time at which he had thus far set the fastest lap time.
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2007 07:01PM by LS..
The Stewards report after examining the telemetry from Schumachers Ferrari
“Having set a fast time in sector one, the driver lost time in sector two, arrived at turn 18 [Rascasse] at a speed little if any different from his previous fastest lap, and braked with such force that his front wheels locked up, requiring the driver to regain control of the car.
“Having compared all relevant data, the stewards can find no justifiable reason for the driver to have braked with such undue, excessive and unusual pressure at this part of the circuit, and are therefore left with no alternative but to conclude that the driver deliberately stopped his car on the circuit in the last few minutes of qualifying, at a time at which he had thus far set the fastest lap time.
LS's Tip of the week
ESSENTIAL OILS aren't essential unless you're an engine, a gearbox or a twat
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2007 07:01PM by LS..
Lex Wrote:
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> Locke Cole schrieb:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > (they lost me in Austria 2001)
>
>
> I can't remember what happened in Austria 2001...
Austria '01, RB was 2nd, MS was 3rd, Rubens had to move over to let MS get 2nd.
Austria '02 same thing, except they were 1st and 2nd, instead of 2nd and 3rd.
@ Paul, you know i'm an MS fan, but even i think he parked the car and cut the engine at Rascasse.
BUT, i don't believe he planned it minutes in advance. he saw he was slower in the 2nd sector of that lap, made a tiny error (from which he could have recovered from. come on, a guy of his skill can't control a tiny lock up like that?), but his brain told him to maximise the situation for his benefit by parking the car. it was definitely heat-of-the-moment IMO. it was the ruthless streak in him that made him do it.
one one hand you can admire him for his determination to win at all costs.
on the other, you can slate him for his lack of foresight at what the consequences will be, his failure to see the bigger picture.
RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael
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> Locke Cole schrieb:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > (they lost me in Austria 2001)
>
>
> I can't remember what happened in Austria 2001...
Austria '01, RB was 2nd, MS was 3rd, Rubens had to move over to let MS get 2nd.
Austria '02 same thing, except they were 1st and 2nd, instead of 2nd and 3rd.
@ Paul, you know i'm an MS fan, but even i think he parked the car and cut the engine at Rascasse.
BUT, i don't believe he planned it minutes in advance. he saw he was slower in the 2nd sector of that lap, made a tiny error (from which he could have recovered from. come on, a guy of his skill can't control a tiny lock up like that?), but his brain told him to maximise the situation for his benefit by parking the car. it was definitely heat-of-the-moment IMO. it was the ruthless streak in him that made him do it.
one one hand you can admire him for his determination to win at all costs.
on the other, you can slate him for his lack of foresight at what the consequences will be, his failure to see the bigger picture.
RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael
What made it worse was that the whole paddock had a damn good idea what he'd done, but Michael came out and spoke to the world press and lied through his teeth about it.
Why would he need to lie?
Thats why even more so, he doesnt get the benefit of the doubt about adelaide 94.
LS's Tip of the week
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Why would he need to lie?
Thats why even more so, he doesnt get the benefit of the doubt about adelaide 94.
LS's Tip of the week
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well i agree with you in a way, that because he has previous (Jerez '97 particularly), that he must have done Rascasse on purpose. but there's always the argument that you can't automatically presume someones guilty just because they've done the crime before.
3 people in a room, 1 gets stabbed. of the 2 left, 1 has a previous conviction for assault. of course it's human nature to think he's the one who stabbed this guy, but it could be the other guy.
it's a very simplistic scenario, but that's how we think in situations like this.
RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael
3 people in a room, 1 gets stabbed. of the 2 left, 1 has a previous conviction for assault. of course it's human nature to think he's the one who stabbed this guy, but it could be the other guy.
it's a very simplistic scenario, but that's how we think in situations like this.
RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael
LS. Wrote:
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> lol ** waits for the Ferrari fans to turn up **
*roflz* a williams fankiddie supports pro williams article - what a surprise *roflz*
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> lol ** waits for the Ferrari fans to turn up **
*roflz* a williams fankiddie supports pro williams article - what a surprise *roflz* oh with out a doubt you cant just assume, Adelaide to some was a 50/50 & gave Michael the benefit of doubt, then when he did it again in Jerez it was like "hang on a minute we've been here before, same scenario, leading the championship with a single point advantage"
Even the hardest of core fans must not fail to see the similaritys
Monacogate only went further to ram home what this guy is capable of imho.
LS's Tip of the week
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Even the hardest of core fans must not fail to see the similaritys
Monacogate only went further to ram home what this guy is capable of imho.
LS's Tip of the week
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well not really, you're still just assuming that because there was controversy before, he must be guilty this time.
if some people gave him the benefit of the doubt for '94, then that opinion should remain, no matter what he did at Monaco. you can't go back and re-assess '94, and then condemn him for that incident if you had until now been 50/50.
that's just your own (not you personally, i mean "your own" as in whoever reads this) prejudices making you think that way, because you think that's what you should think.
@ Astro, LS may be a fan, but he aint a kiddie, he's 37.
RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2007 08:07PM by Muks_C.
if some people gave him the benefit of the doubt for '94, then that opinion should remain, no matter what he did at Monaco. you can't go back and re-assess '94, and then condemn him for that incident if you had until now been 50/50.
that's just your own (not you personally, i mean "your own" as in whoever reads this) prejudices making you think that way, because you think that's what you should think.
@ Astro, LS may be a fan, but he aint a kiddie, he's 37.
RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2007 08:07PM by Muks_C.
i thought LS might be 38, but didn't want to post that and make him older than he was, in case he wasn't.
in terms of fault, Adelaide could be 50/50, but Jerez, i don't know what to think. MS always maintains that JV wouldn't have made the corner had he (MS) not been there, but if that was the case, MS should have stayed left and braked, let JV run wide, then pass him up the inside.
i think it was a decent attempt at an overtake, he had 2 wheels on the grass, but in the same way as Rascasse, MS' instinct told him to turn in to try to benefit him. it wasn't premeditated, again just spur of the moment.
and LS always counters this point by saying that it's weird that a human can have an instinct to cause an accident, instead of trying to avoid one, but i say F1 cars are so safe, and the speeds were so low, that no harm would be done to either driver at that corner or in that particular accident.
RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael
in terms of fault, Adelaide could be 50/50, but Jerez, i don't know what to think. MS always maintains that JV wouldn't have made the corner had he (MS) not been there, but if that was the case, MS should have stayed left and braked, let JV run wide, then pass him up the inside.
i think it was a decent attempt at an overtake, he had 2 wheels on the grass, but in the same way as Rascasse, MS' instinct told him to turn in to try to benefit him. it wasn't premeditated, again just spur of the moment.
and LS always counters this point by saying that it's weird that a human can have an instinct to cause an accident, instead of trying to avoid one, but i say F1 cars are so safe, and the speeds were so low, that no harm would be done to either driver at that corner or in that particular accident.
RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael
i am indeed 37 
a few months younger than Schumi
your right you should'nt just prejudge someone because of their past demeanours but its pretty hard not to, given the circumstances.
Put it this way, ( and i know its taking it to the extreme, but to try and make a point) if Mr Smith robbed a bank in 1994 and there was'nt enough evidence to make a conviction and he got off, but then under the same circumstances was found guilty in 1997, it would point to maybe that he's been caught again but only this time the conviction stuck because of damning evidence, surely there's a case for previous?
Time will only tell if Michael fesses up to it, and frankly i dont think he will, but the elemement of doubt will always be there.
History shows he's been ruthless in his career.
We know O J simpson was guilty, but he got away with it
LS's Tip of the week
ESSENTIAL OILS aren't essential unless you're an engine, a gearbox or a twat
a few months younger than Schumiyour right you should'nt just prejudge someone because of their past demeanours but its pretty hard not to, given the circumstances.
Put it this way, ( and i know its taking it to the extreme, but to try and make a point) if Mr Smith robbed a bank in 1994 and there was'nt enough evidence to make a conviction and he got off, but then under the same circumstances was found guilty in 1997, it would point to maybe that he's been caught again but only this time the conviction stuck because of damning evidence, surely there's a case for previous?
Time will only tell if Michael fesses up to it, and frankly i dont think he will, but the elemement of doubt will always be there.
History shows he's been ruthless in his career.
We know O J simpson was guilty, but he got away with it
LS's Tip of the week
ESSENTIAL OILS aren't essential unless you're an engine, a gearbox or a twat
Muks_C Wrote:
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>MS always maintains that JV wouldn't have made the corner had he (MS) not been there, but if that was the case, MS should have stayed >left and braked, let JV run wide, then pass him up the inside.
>i think it was a decent attempt at an overtake, he had 2 wheels on the grass, but in the same way as Rascasse, MS' instinct told him >to turn in to try to benefit him. it wasn't premeditated, again just spur of the moment.
>
> and LS always counters this point by saying that
> it's weird that a human can have an instinct to
> cause an accident, instead of trying to avoid one,
> but i say F1 cars are so safe, and the speeds were
> so low, that no harm would be done to either
> driver at that corner or in that particular
> accident.
Premeditated or not, no other World Champion since Michael's became dominant has had to resort to those kind of tactics to ensure victory.
That says it all really
LS's Tip of the week
ESSENTIAL OILS aren't essential unless you're an engine, a gearbox or a twat
-------------------------------------------------------
>MS always maintains that JV wouldn't have made the corner had he (MS) not been there, but if that was the case, MS should have stayed >left and braked, let JV run wide, then pass him up the inside.
>i think it was a decent attempt at an overtake, he had 2 wheels on the grass, but in the same way as Rascasse, MS' instinct told him >to turn in to try to benefit him. it wasn't premeditated, again just spur of the moment.
>
> and LS always counters this point by saying that
> it's weird that a human can have an instinct to
> cause an accident, instead of trying to avoid one,
> but i say F1 cars are so safe, and the speeds were
> so low, that no harm would be done to either
> driver at that corner or in that particular
> accident.
Premeditated or not, no other World Champion since Michael's became dominant has had to resort to those kind of tactics to ensure victory.
That says it all really
LS's Tip of the week
ESSENTIAL OILS aren't essential unless you're an engine, a gearbox or a twat
i like your spelling of element (elemement)
you're right, your analogy is a bit tenuous, but it's the same as mine with the stabbing. but in yours, if he was arrested, but got off, it probably was him cos they arrested him for it originally, which hopefully they wouldn't have done if he had nothing to do with it.
what if it wasn't Mr Smith in '94, but he was wrongly arrested for it then released, but it was him in the '97 robbery? would you think it was him in '94, just because he was arrested in '97?
if he was released in '94, then we should accept he didn't do it in '94, even if he was found guilty of it in '97.
lol, what are we talking about!
RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael
you're right, your analogy is a bit tenuous, but it's the same as mine with the stabbing. but in yours, if he was arrested, but got off, it probably was him cos they arrested him for it originally, which hopefully they wouldn't have done if he had nothing to do with it.
what if it wasn't Mr Smith in '94, but he was wrongly arrested for it then released, but it was him in the '97 robbery? would you think it was him in '94, just because he was arrested in '97?
if he was released in '94, then we should accept he didn't do it in '94, even if he was found guilty of it in '97.
lol, what are we talking about!
RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael
it does say it all, it says he is a fighter through and through, and won't give up, even if it means doing silly things like he has done.
no other champ has had the need to do it, as they haven't been 1 point ahead or behind since (apart from Alonso in '06, but MS was down on the grid anyway, so it was 99.99% certain that Alonso would walk away as champ, and he couldn't and wouldn't do it anyway, he's not that sort of person, and wouldn't want to be hated in the way MS is for his actions.)
RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael
no other champ has had the need to do it, as they haven't been 1 point ahead or behind since (apart from Alonso in '06, but MS was down on the grid anyway, so it was 99.99% certain that Alonso would walk away as champ, and he couldn't and wouldn't do it anyway, he's not that sort of person, and wouldn't want to be hated in the way MS is for his actions.)
RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael
Muks_C Wrote:
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> i like your spelling of element (elemement)
my apologies, just got back from a pub quiz and the drinks did flow
>
> you're right, your analogy is a bit tenuous, but
> it's the same as mine with the stabbing. but in
> yours, if he was arrested, but got off, it
> probably was him cos they arrested him for it
> originally, which hopefully they wouldn't have
> done if he had nothing to do with it.
>
> what if it wasn't Mr Smith in '94, but he was
> wrongly arrested for it then released, but it was
> him in the '97 robbery? would you think it was him
> in '94, just because he was arrested in '97?
>
> if he was released in '94, then we should accept
> he didn't do it in '94, even if he was found
> guilty of it in '97.
>
> lol, what are we talking about!
maybe were using the wrong tact here as law isnt the same thing, there are that many different loop holes and technicalitys.
what we need is the sweeney to get schumacher in a dark room and lean on him with the old good cop bad cop routine
LS's Tip of the week
ESSENTIAL OILS aren't essential unless you're an engine, a gearbox or a twat
-------------------------------------------------------
> i like your spelling of element (elemement)
my apologies, just got back from a pub quiz and the drinks did flow
>
> you're right, your analogy is a bit tenuous, but
> it's the same as mine with the stabbing. but in
> yours, if he was arrested, but got off, it
> probably was him cos they arrested him for it
> originally, which hopefully they wouldn't have
> done if he had nothing to do with it.
>
> what if it wasn't Mr Smith in '94, but he was
> wrongly arrested for it then released, but it was
> him in the '97 robbery? would you think it was him
> in '94, just because he was arrested in '97?
>
> if he was released in '94, then we should accept
> he didn't do it in '94, even if he was found
> guilty of it in '97.
>
> lol, what are we talking about!
maybe were using the wrong tact here as law isnt the same thing, there are that many different loop holes and technicalitys.
what we need is the sweeney to get schumacher in a dark room and lean on him with the old good cop bad cop routine
LS's Tip of the week
ESSENTIAL OILS aren't essential unless you're an engine, a gearbox or a twat
Muks_C Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> no other champ has had the need to do it, as they
> haven't been 1 point ahead or behind since (apart
> from Alonso in '06, but MS was down on the grid
> anyway, so it was 99.99% certain that Alonso would
> walk away as champ, and he couldn't and wouldn't
> do it anyway, he's not that sort of person, and
> wouldn't want to be hated in the way MS is for his
> actions.)
i didnt mean it like that, going down to final race.
Lets say michaels * ahem * behaviour that we've all seen on track has been different to the likes of Mansell, Hill, Mika, who you knew you were safe with going wheel to wheel without fearing being delibrately punted.
Michaels done dubious things like being too forceful when unncessary, like nearly forcing his bro into the pitwall ( which was downright dangerous) he put alonso on the grass down the hanger straight at 190mph, basically he is a very forcefull driver and thats in race conditions not really fighting for the last point in the season showdown in the final race.
what i'm saying is that given his character makeup, and seeing what he's like in every day races it wasnt a suprise to see what he's capable of doing when its down to the wire.
hope that makes some sense
LS's Tip of the week
ESSENTIAL OILS aren't essential unless you're an engine, a gearbox or a twat
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2007 12:53AM by LS..
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>
> no other champ has had the need to do it, as they
> haven't been 1 point ahead or behind since (apart
> from Alonso in '06, but MS was down on the grid
> anyway, so it was 99.99% certain that Alonso would
> walk away as champ, and he couldn't and wouldn't
> do it anyway, he's not that sort of person, and
> wouldn't want to be hated in the way MS is for his
> actions.)
i didnt mean it like that, going down to final race.
Lets say michaels * ahem * behaviour that we've all seen on track has been different to the likes of Mansell, Hill, Mika, who you knew you were safe with going wheel to wheel without fearing being delibrately punted.
Michaels done dubious things like being too forceful when unncessary, like nearly forcing his bro into the pitwall ( which was downright dangerous) he put alonso on the grass down the hanger straight at 190mph, basically he is a very forcefull driver and thats in race conditions not really fighting for the last point in the season showdown in the final race.
what i'm saying is that given his character makeup, and seeing what he's like in every day races it wasnt a suprise to see what he's capable of doing when its down to the wire.
hope that makes some sense
LS's Tip of the week
ESSENTIAL OILS aren't essential unless you're an engine, a gearbox or a twat
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2007 12:53AM by LS..
or the method Le Chiffre uses on Bond in Casino Royale 
RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael
RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael
not seen it yet ( this saturday )
LS's Tip of the week
ESSENTIAL OILS aren't essential unless you're an engine, a gearbox or a twat
)LS's Tip of the week
ESSENTIAL OILS aren't essential unless you're an engine, a gearbox or a twat
yep i understand what you mean about him being forceful all the time.
the thing with Ralf is not that bad IMO, yes he went to the right making Ralf go right too, but they were a good distance away from the wall, Ralf was safe.
Hangar straight with Alonso, they both move right at exactly the same time, it wasn't that Alonso moved, then MS moved right to block him.
what about Spain 2000 where he ushered Ralf wide to let Rubens through when he (MS) had to come in to fix the puncture? i think that was genius tbh. he showed that day that he had more loyalty to his team than to his brother.
RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael
the thing with Ralf is not that bad IMO, yes he went to the right making Ralf go right too, but they were a good distance away from the wall, Ralf was safe.
Hangar straight with Alonso, they both move right at exactly the same time, it wasn't that Alonso moved, then MS moved right to block him.
what about Spain 2000 where he ushered Ralf wide to let Rubens through when he (MS) had to come in to fix the puncture? i think that was genius tbh. he showed that day that he had more loyalty to his team than to his brother.
RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael
you've not seen it yet!? dude!!!
(btw, anyone else, you're welcome to join in this discussion, it's not a private party)
RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael
(btw, anyone else, you're welcome to join in this discussion, it's not a private party
)RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael
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