Helmet safety in F1, particularly visors
Posted by turkey_machine
NeilPearson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Muks_C Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > and in NASCAR, HANS would have saved Dale
> > Earnhart. i saw some documentary on the whole
> > death in motorsport issue, and HANS had been
> > suggested to the NASCAR drivers. while most of
> > them agreed to use it, Dale and a couple of
> others
> > refused, taking the attitude of "who are you
> big
> > shot scientists to tell us what we should and
> > shouldn't do in our sport?", so didn't use it.
>
>
> yeah the HANS devices stops seatbelts snapping
> and drivers from hitting the steering wheel at
> impact.
how does it stop the belts snapping? or was it a sarcastic comment?
RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael
-------------------------------------------------------
> Muks_C Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > and in NASCAR, HANS would have saved Dale
> > Earnhart. i saw some documentary on the whole
> > death in motorsport issue, and HANS had been
> > suggested to the NASCAR drivers. while most of
> > them agreed to use it, Dale and a couple of
> others
> > refused, taking the attitude of "who are you
> big
> > shot scientists to tell us what we should and
> > shouldn't do in our sport?", so didn't use it.
>
>
> yeah the HANS devices stops seatbelts snapping
> and drivers from hitting the steering wheel at
> impact.
how does it stop the belts snapping? or was it a sarcastic comment?
RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael
i was being sarcastic, he died because his seatbelts snapped and he went into the wheel, sure that caused an injury the HANS device could have prevented, but im pretty sure something else would have gotten in then.
oh right. well the thing i watched didn't mention the snapping belts, only that his head flicked forward on impact with the wall, causing the snap at the base of his skull, which the HANS would have prevented. but as you say, with the belts snapping, even the HANS couldn't have saved him.
but still, it has shown to be useful in many other cases.
RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael
but still, it has shown to be useful in many other cases.
RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael
Do they teach crash stances in single-seater races? Seems like he moved more than he should.
Everyone knows that million-to-one chances happen 9 times out of 10; indeed, it's a common requirement in fairy tales. If the human didn't have to overcome huge odds, what would be the point? Terry Pratchett - The Science Of Discworld
GPGSL S5 Race driver for IED.
Everyone knows that million-to-one chances happen 9 times out of 10; indeed, it's a common requirement in fairy tales. If the human didn't have to overcome huge odds, what would be the point? Terry Pratchett - The Science Of Discworld
GPGSL S5 Race driver for IED.
RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael
The black thing on the centre of the visor, right Muks_C?
Everyone knows that million-to-one chances happen 9 times out of 10; indeed, it's a common requirement in fairy tales. If the human didn't have to overcome huge odds, what would be the point? Terry Pratchett - The Science Of Discworld
GPGSL S5 Race driver for IED.
Everyone knows that million-to-one chances happen 9 times out of 10; indeed, it's a common requirement in fairy tales. If the human didn't have to overcome huge odds, what would be the point? Terry Pratchett - The Science Of Discworld
GPGSL S5 Race driver for IED.
yup. it acts like a little handle to pull the visor down also, so the driver doesn't need to touch ther visor and possibly make it dirty. then it clips onto the black thing on the bottom part of the helmet.
i guess it's not only there to keept it shut during an accident, but to keep it slightly open to let air flow into it to cool the drivers face. so even when fixed shut, the set gap remains and doesn't fly open when travelling fast.
RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael
i guess it's not only there to keept it shut during an accident, but to keep it slightly open to let air flow into it to cool the drivers face. so even when fixed shut, the set gap remains and doesn't fly open when travelling fast.
RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael
Guimengo Wrote:
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> With regards to more visor safety, Ralf's crash in
> Indy was so hard that he hit the wheel with his
> helmet and the visor opened more than what it
> usually opens, he was very exposed there and it
> made me think there should be a better locking
> device for the visor. I remember Alexandre Barros
> crash in MotoGP, he was rolling and his visor just
> popped off so he could have hit his face on
> something and gotten even more hurt.
Ralf didn't hit his head on the steering wheel from what I've seen, he went into the wall backwards. I believe the visor was opened by the force and probably helped by the air getting underneath it. Can't see what danger he was put at, if something was going to hit his face hard enough to cause damage it would have probably broken the visor on its way.
The problem is it's all well and good to talk of having clips to hold the visor in place but anyone who has worn a helmet in various conditions will tell you that it's just not possible to have it locked in one position. In very cold conditions you might need to open your visor quite a bit to let the air in to stop the visor steaming up. Or if your breathing quite heavily as well can cause the visor to steam up quite badly. It would be far more dangerous to be driving blind a lot of the time than to have the very small chance of something actually hitting the drivers face.
MotoGP is always going to be hard to stop visors breaking off. Most visors are only held in place with 2 screws, some even have fast release sliding off bits. Again though I think the visor coming off is of little worry to a rider who is being flung about like a rag doll at over 100mph.
I think people need to stop worrying about so much
It's getting a bit of a joke what the FIA/MSA are trying to push through in all forms of racing regarding safety. I think the saying if it aint broke don't fix it goes well here. The FIA & MSA even have Tillet owner disagreeing with something which would potentially make him a fortune. Why is no one worried about one of the if not the highest risk of death, DIY work around the home? Is it just because motorsport has a higher profile and people regard it as danagerous? Yet stats would prove otherwise...
vMax.Keiran
Velocity Maximum Simulation Racing
www.vMaxSR.com
www.liveforspeed.net LFS Status:
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2006 10:29PM by keiran.
-------------------------------------------------------
> With regards to more visor safety, Ralf's crash in
> Indy was so hard that he hit the wheel with his
> helmet and the visor opened more than what it
> usually opens, he was very exposed there and it
> made me think there should be a better locking
> device for the visor. I remember Alexandre Barros
> crash in MotoGP, he was rolling and his visor just
> popped off so he could have hit his face on
> something and gotten even more hurt.
Ralf didn't hit his head on the steering wheel from what I've seen, he went into the wall backwards. I believe the visor was opened by the force and probably helped by the air getting underneath it. Can't see what danger he was put at, if something was going to hit his face hard enough to cause damage it would have probably broken the visor on its way.
The problem is it's all well and good to talk of having clips to hold the visor in place but anyone who has worn a helmet in various conditions will tell you that it's just not possible to have it locked in one position. In very cold conditions you might need to open your visor quite a bit to let the air in to stop the visor steaming up. Or if your breathing quite heavily as well can cause the visor to steam up quite badly. It would be far more dangerous to be driving blind a lot of the time than to have the very small chance of something actually hitting the drivers face.
MotoGP is always going to be hard to stop visors breaking off. Most visors are only held in place with 2 screws, some even have fast release sliding off bits. Again though I think the visor coming off is of little worry to a rider who is being flung about like a rag doll at over 100mph.
I think people need to stop worrying about so much
It's getting a bit of a joke what the FIA/MSA are trying to push through in all forms of racing regarding safety. I think the saying if it aint broke don't fix it goes well here. The FIA & MSA even have Tillet owner disagreeing with something which would potentially make him a fortune. Why is no one worried about one of the if not the highest risk of death, DIY work around the home? Is it just because motorsport has a higher profile and people regard it as danagerous? Yet stats would prove otherwise...vMax.Keiran
Velocity Maximum Simulation Racing
www.vMaxSR.com
www.liveforspeed.net LFS Status:
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2006 10:29PM by keiran.
The FIA push through most safety measures because they adopted a quote "Zero Mortality" rate in Formula 1 after Senna and Ratzenberger's crashes. Tis why the cars changed so much after 1995 and 1997 (1995 cause of Hakkinen's accident and 1997 cause the new Concorde Agreement came into force the next season). Indycar and Champcar would do good to adopt a few of the FIA's safety measures, and vice versa.
Everyone knows that million-to-one chances happen 9 times out of 10; indeed, it's a common requirement in fairy tales. If the human didn't have to overcome huge odds, what would be the point? Terry Pratchett - The Science Of Discworld
GPGSL S5 Race driver for IED.
Everyone knows that million-to-one chances happen 9 times out of 10; indeed, it's a common requirement in fairy tales. If the human didn't have to overcome huge odds, what would be the point? Terry Pratchett - The Science Of Discworld
GPGSL S5 Race driver for IED.
Nickv Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think the saying if it aint broke don't fix it
> goes well here.
>
> That's the saying the FIA used before Sennas and
> Ratzenbergers crashes...
Now we are going off to an extreme... Senna's death was probably the one which influenced safety in motorsport the most and there was nothing wrong with that. The same with the HANS device there isn't really a problem with that although I do think it should be upto the driver whether they want to wear it or not.
Worrying about a visor in my total honest opinion is just silly. I've had mine break off twice in a heavy impact and many others have them come off as well. It's better that they break away from the screws holding them in rather than shatter in your eyes (although I'm pretty sure they are shatter-proof). Something like what caused Sennas death with the force and energy going on would probably be hard to prevent at the actual visor design. The car design is where this should and is prevented to a certain degree.
The FIA and MSA are rubbing people up the wrong way when it comes to revolutionary safety ideas. The owner of Tillet (as I've said could make a fortune from what the FIA want to force through) put it perfectly, "some of the people that are there seem to have a need to justify their jobs by coming up with new ways to inconvenience us"
My point is that motorsport in general gets so much hack by public when something bad happens yet DIY work around the house one of the deadliest tasks seem to go unnoticed. This annoys me so much as people then feel the need to voice out in the press making others believe that motorsport is just crazy and we shouldn't be doing it when there are more deadly & boring tasks to be doing in your free time.
vMax.Keiran
Velocity Maximum Simulation Racing
www.vMaxSR.com
www.liveforspeed.net LFS Status:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think the saying if it aint broke don't fix it
> goes well here.
>
> That's the saying the FIA used before Sennas and
> Ratzenbergers crashes...
Now we are going off to an extreme... Senna's death was probably the one which influenced safety in motorsport the most and there was nothing wrong with that. The same with the HANS device there isn't really a problem with that although I do think it should be upto the driver whether they want to wear it or not.
Worrying about a visor in my total honest opinion is just silly. I've had mine break off twice in a heavy impact and many others have them come off as well. It's better that they break away from the screws holding them in rather than shatter in your eyes (although I'm pretty sure they are shatter-proof). Something like what caused Sennas death with the force and energy going on would probably be hard to prevent at the actual visor design. The car design is where this should and is prevented to a certain degree.
The FIA and MSA are rubbing people up the wrong way when it comes to revolutionary safety ideas. The owner of Tillet (as I've said could make a fortune from what the FIA want to force through) put it perfectly, "some of the people that are there seem to have a need to justify their jobs by coming up with new ways to inconvenience us"
My point is that motorsport in general gets so much hack by public when something bad happens yet DIY work around the house one of the deadliest tasks seem to go unnoticed. This annoys me so much as people then feel the need to voice out in the press making others believe that motorsport is just crazy and we shouldn't be doing it when there are more deadly & boring tasks to be doing in your free time.
vMax.Keiran
Velocity Maximum Simulation Racing
www.vMaxSR.com
www.liveforspeed.net LFS Status:
Quote
Something like what caused Sennas death with the force and energy going on would probably be hard to prevent at the actual visor design. The car design is where this should and is prevented to a certain degree.
Can't agree with you on this. The visor's one of the key gateways to the body's primary organ, so why not have more than adequate protection? Why not have the visor, say, double-thickness, or 10mm thick so that in the event of a violent impact, nothing pierces it that's almost a blunt object (suspension for instance). Yes, the suspension's unlikely to fly off the car's wheels nowadays, but in the event of T-boning somebody, you can never be too careful.
Everyone knows that million-to-one chances happen 9 times out of 10; indeed, it's a common requirement in fairy tales. If the human didn't have to overcome huge odds, what would be the point? Terry Pratchett - The Science Of Discworld
GPGSL S5 Race driver for IED.
turkey_machine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Something like what caused Sennas death with the
> force and energy going on would probably be hard
> to prevent at the actual visor design. The car
> design is where this should and is prevented to a
> certain degree.
>
> Can't agree with you on this. The visor's one of
> the key gateways to the body's primary organ, so
> why not have more than adequate protection? Why
> not have the visor, say, double-thickness, or 10mm
> thick so that in the event of a violent impact,
> nothing pierces it that's almost a blunt object
> (suspension for instance). Yes, the suspension's
> unlikely to fly off the car's wheels nowadays, but
> in the event of T-boning somebody, you can never
> be too careful.
How much more protection do you want? All of them on that grid will be the best money can buy so will be the strongest available.
You can only make things as strong as the materials allow you. I doubt helmet manufactures back in 94 were making them of the weakest materials they could find and I very much doubt they are doing that now. Big motorsport series like F1 is where helmet manufactures show off there best helmets available.
Helmet manufactures know the importance of the whole helmet in protecting the driver/rider and that is the purpose they design the helmets for. At the end of the day the whole helmet design is as safe as the manufacture can make design it, it's just like a car. Companies strive to get there car a higher safety rating and that's a helmet manufactures business to design a helmet better/stronger than the competitors. For a helmet £600+ I doubt they skimp anywhere on the parts that are going to protect you
vMax.Keiran
Velocity Maximum Simulation Racing
www.vMaxSR.com
www.liveforspeed.net LFS Status:
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2006 09:55PM by keiran.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Something like what caused Sennas death with the
> force and energy going on would probably be hard
> to prevent at the actual visor design. The car
> design is where this should and is prevented to a
> certain degree.
>
> Can't agree with you on this. The visor's one of
> the key gateways to the body's primary organ, so
> why not have more than adequate protection? Why
> not have the visor, say, double-thickness, or 10mm
> thick so that in the event of a violent impact,
> nothing pierces it that's almost a blunt object
> (suspension for instance). Yes, the suspension's
> unlikely to fly off the car's wheels nowadays, but
> in the event of T-boning somebody, you can never
> be too careful.
How much more protection do you want? All of them on that grid will be the best money can buy so will be the strongest available.
You can only make things as strong as the materials allow you. I doubt helmet manufactures back in 94 were making them of the weakest materials they could find and I very much doubt they are doing that now. Big motorsport series like F1 is where helmet manufactures show off there best helmets available.
Helmet manufactures know the importance of the whole helmet in protecting the driver/rider and that is the purpose they design the helmets for. At the end of the day the whole helmet design is as safe as the manufacture can make design it, it's just like a car. Companies strive to get there car a higher safety rating and that's a helmet manufactures business to design a helmet better/stronger than the competitors. For a helmet £600+ I doubt they skimp anywhere on the parts that are going to protect you
vMax.Keiran
Velocity Maximum Simulation Racing
www.vMaxSR.com
www.liveforspeed.net LFS Status:
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2006 09:55PM by keiran.
the part of a suspension that killed Senna didnt pierced his visor, but above that.
"I'm an artist, the track is my canvas, and the car is my brush."
"I'm an artist, the track is my canvas, and the car is my brush."
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