lol at Bernie
Posted by rapid_f1
But get an American to design the track if that happens, not a European (and especially not Tilke). American culture and attitudes are so different to European ideals, their idea of a "big" race track is probably far more spectacular than a foreign designer could concoct.
Either that, or run F1 at Elkhart Lake. I'm sure you wouldn't see fans OR team bosses complaining about that.
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Either that, or run F1 at Elkhart Lake. I'm sure you wouldn't see fans OR team bosses complaining about that.
@daveellis America does not need F1. It shows relativly little interest in F1. It has its own series. Why would it welcome an outsider when its home grown stuff is often much better?
wtf man! the only race series is the states that is worth watching is champcars with its mix of ovals and street circuits it rocks, but all the rest are ..well....@#$%&.i mean nascar is just going round in circles.wheres the specticle in that? same with IRL round and round we go lol.
No wonder F1 has never took off,its too complex cos its got left and right turns.It seem american motorsports fans are like there cars.....they dont like corners
wtf man! the only race series is the states that is worth watching is champcars with its mix of ovals and street circuits it rocks, but all the rest are ..well....@#$%&.i mean nascar is just going round in circles.wheres the specticle in that? same with IRL round and round we go lol.
No wonder F1 has never took off,its too complex cos its got left and right turns.It seem american motorsports fans are like there cars.....they dont like corners
The argument you put forward was that the F1 teams didn't view the American market and by association the US GP as worth the effort.
No it wasnt. The argument i put forward that was Formula 1 gained nothing by traveling to America, and America gained nothing by having a Forumla 1 race. My argument concerning the team was they are all represented within American motorsports and there representation in F1 gaisn them much less inside American than some would think.
Never mind that stance is simply a marketing ploy from Bernie to attempt to extact more money from Tony George - you apparently took the bait hook, line, and sinker as Bernie hoped the uninformed fan would.
Gota love conspiracy theories. Some hold water, some are stupid and some are just down right hillarious. This fits with the 3rd one.
The United States is the last great frontier as far as F1 marketing goes, a huge potential return for minimum investment and priceless advertising revenue for US and foreign business interest.
I have bolded the important word. Potential is all well and good, but F1 has spent now 7 years trying to unlock this potential, and has failed. Since you seem to be informed, and by your own claims, im not, explain, what should it do to unlock this potential, and stop wasting its time?
On a related note - why should F1 support the big car makers? they spent the whole time recently threatening to leave. there participation has caused the downfall of private teams, who form the foundatin of F1. the whole point in the 2008 rules package was to lower costs to encourage smaller teams to be able to compete again. The car makers ALWAYS eventually just give up and leave. Other than Ferrari, they have ALL done it. Even the big American giant FORD lasted just 3 years before quitting. Why should F1 go to America simply to benefit the big car makers?
Bernie might be the ruler now, but he won't live forever. And he didn't build modern day F1 by himself, despite your opinion.
Like it or not, the F1 we see in public, he did. FOM is Bernies company and hes the one thats brought F1 to the fans, got it all over our TVs, radios, the internet. That was all done by Bernies company. In the last 5 or so years hes very much lost the power he used to have in f1, but its still him who has spent the last 30 years building the F1 coverage into what it is, and allowing it to become a global spectacle, only shadowed by the Football World Cup, the Olympic Games.
No Dave, you've simply had your ears pinned back on this subject and don't have the grace to admit it....
Get personal if you want, but no, i wont admit it because simply speaking, im not wrong on this one
Answer these points please -
F1 left America in 1992. Between 1992, and 1999 (the last year before F1 rejoin the States) F1 suffered no problems related to the loss of America. 1999 was a fantastic year with private teams battling the big teams for the championship. F1 didnt suffer with the loss of the American GP
Between 1992 and 1999 CART boomed. Right through the late 90s is and will for a long time, be considered CARTs glory years. NASCAR was building momentum also. IRL struggled in this time after TG left CART but its a new series, what do you expect? American motorsports didnt suffer with the loss of the American GP.
So, i state once again - Altho i would love an American GP, F1 didnt suffer from the loss of it, and has not gained since 2000. American motorsports did not suffer from the loss of it, and has not gained since 2000. So again, i ask - wheres the evidence to say that F1 NEEDS America, or vise-versa?
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No it wasnt. The argument i put forward that was Formula 1 gained nothing by traveling to America, and America gained nothing by having a Forumla 1 race. My argument concerning the team was they are all represented within American motorsports and there representation in F1 gaisn them much less inside American than some would think.
Never mind that stance is simply a marketing ploy from Bernie to attempt to extact more money from Tony George - you apparently took the bait hook, line, and sinker as Bernie hoped the uninformed fan would.
Gota love conspiracy theories. Some hold water, some are stupid and some are just down right hillarious. This fits with the 3rd one.
The United States is the last great frontier as far as F1 marketing goes, a huge potential return for minimum investment and priceless advertising revenue for US and foreign business interest.
I have bolded the important word. Potential is all well and good, but F1 has spent now 7 years trying to unlock this potential, and has failed. Since you seem to be informed, and by your own claims, im not, explain, what should it do to unlock this potential, and stop wasting its time?
On a related note - why should F1 support the big car makers? they spent the whole time recently threatening to leave. there participation has caused the downfall of private teams, who form the foundatin of F1. the whole point in the 2008 rules package was to lower costs to encourage smaller teams to be able to compete again. The car makers ALWAYS eventually just give up and leave. Other than Ferrari, they have ALL done it. Even the big American giant FORD lasted just 3 years before quitting. Why should F1 go to America simply to benefit the big car makers?
Bernie might be the ruler now, but he won't live forever. And he didn't build modern day F1 by himself, despite your opinion.
Like it or not, the F1 we see in public, he did. FOM is Bernies company and hes the one thats brought F1 to the fans, got it all over our TVs, radios, the internet. That was all done by Bernies company. In the last 5 or so years hes very much lost the power he used to have in f1, but its still him who has spent the last 30 years building the F1 coverage into what it is, and allowing it to become a global spectacle, only shadowed by the Football World Cup, the Olympic Games.
No Dave, you've simply had your ears pinned back on this subject and don't have the grace to admit it....
Get personal if you want, but no, i wont admit it because simply speaking, im not wrong on this one
Answer these points please -
F1 left America in 1992. Between 1992, and 1999 (the last year before F1 rejoin the States) F1 suffered no problems related to the loss of America. 1999 was a fantastic year with private teams battling the big teams for the championship. F1 didnt suffer with the loss of the American GP
Between 1992 and 1999 CART boomed. Right through the late 90s is and will for a long time, be considered CARTs glory years. NASCAR was building momentum also. IRL struggled in this time after TG left CART but its a new series, what do you expect? American motorsports didnt suffer with the loss of the American GP.
So, i state once again - Altho i would love an American GP, F1 didnt suffer from the loss of it, and has not gained since 2000. American motorsports did not suffer from the loss of it, and has not gained since 2000. So again, i ask - wheres the evidence to say that F1 NEEDS America, or vise-versa?
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DaveEllis Wrote:
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But whats the biggest motorsport in America right now? NASCAR. Like it or not, it is.
Well what can i say to that except simple things entertain simple minds lol
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But whats the biggest motorsport in America right now? NASCAR. Like it or not, it is.
Well what can i say to that except simple things entertain simple minds lol
Just because someone has a different point of view does'nt make them ignorent!
and are you so arrogant to assume your always correct? it is only your opinion that u are correct.
and are you so arrogant to assume your always correct? it is only your opinion that u are correct.
"The last 6 years has shown F1 hasnt broken America, and im willing to trust bernies feelings on this one too."
Then you might want to read this
"I am not prepared to subsidise a race in America."
"But if they want to continue having a round of the Formula One World Championship over there, I am happy to talk to them, which is what I will do when I get there."
"I have a very good relationship with the people in Indianapolis and I am sure talks will go well."
Sure doesn't look like a down right hillarious conspiracy theory without your spin.
"Lovely incorrect reporting too"
No,if you tried reading,all 3 want a second race.
"And anyway, of all those quotes, none of them prove me wrong. They all say they would like a race there, but look at what i said again "
It benefits Todt,Fry,Haug and Theissen.
"My argument concerning the team was they are all represented within American motorsports and there representation in F1 gaisn them much less inside American than some would think."
Yes and that's why the representatives of the mnufacturers want to keep a race.
Brilliant logic.
"F1 has spent now 7 years trying to unlock this potential, and has failed."
No,not really.The first really promoted GP had 225 000 attendance and 4,7 rating in the USA.That's what good promoting can do.
Then you might want to read this
"I am not prepared to subsidise a race in America."
"But if they want to continue having a round of the Formula One World Championship over there, I am happy to talk to them, which is what I will do when I get there."
"I have a very good relationship with the people in Indianapolis and I am sure talks will go well."
Sure doesn't look like a down right hillarious conspiracy theory without your spin.
"Lovely incorrect reporting too"
No,if you tried reading,all 3 want a second race.
"And anyway, of all those quotes, none of them prove me wrong. They all say they would like a race there, but look at what i said again "
It benefits Todt,Fry,Haug and Theissen.
"My argument concerning the team was they are all represented within American motorsports and there representation in F1 gaisn them much less inside American than some would think."
Yes and that's why the representatives of the mnufacturers want to keep a race.
Brilliant logic.
"F1 has spent now 7 years trying to unlock this potential, and has failed."
No,not really.The first really promoted GP had 225 000 attendance and 4,7 rating in the USA.That's what good promoting can do.
Date: June 26, 2006 11:44AM
Posted by: johnace (IP Logged)
Just because someone has a different point of view does'nt make them ignorent!
No, but im not ignorant enough to suggest that driving in circles is all nascar is and the people who appreciate it are simple minded
Dont start insulting millions of people and then try and turn it around on me! By simplying NASCAR (or IRL) oval racing as "simply driving in circles" you could then simply F1 as "simply driving around a parking lot" or football as "men kicking a ball" or tennis as "people hitting balls" and so on. So no, i have already addressed the different points of view about oval racing, and said i understand why people dont like it. However it was you that simplified it simply to have an insulting go at half a nation. So dont even think of turning your stupid comments into an attack on me!"I am not prepared to subsidise a race in America."
Why should he? Why should he give America preference over anywhere else? What makes it more important, than say, the Belgian GP? Which currently doesnt have a slot. I dont quite see your point that that quote. He basicly says hes prepared to talk to Indy about a race, but wont give them special treatment. That seems perfectly fair to me...
Yes and that's why the representatives of the mnufacturers want to keep a race.
Of course they want a race. Its yet MORE advertising for Car makers! Just what F1 needs eh? The big teams taking over and ruining the show again! But once AGAIN -
You failed to answer my most important point, so just for your TripleM, because i love you sooooo much, i'll copy and paste it into this post so you can read it all over again! -
F1 left America in 1992. Between 1992, and 1999 (the last year before F1 rejoin the States) F1 suffered no problems related to the loss of America. 1999 was a fantastic year with private teams battling the big teams for the championship. F1 didnt suffer with the loss of the American GP
Between 1992 and 1999 CART boomed. Right through the late 90s is and will for a long time, be considered CARTs glory years. NASCAR was building momentum also. IRL struggled in this time after TG left CART but its a new series, what do you expect? American motorsports didnt suffer with the loss of the American GP.
So, i state once again - Altho i would love an American GP, F1 didnt suffer from the loss of it, and has not gained since 2000. American motorsports did not suffer from the loss of it, and has not gained since 2000. So again, i ask - wheres the evidence to say that F1 NEEDS America, or vise-versa?
And please note. WANT a race is a completly different thing to NEED a race
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/2006 03:06PM by DaveEllis.
"Why should he? Why should he give America preference over anywhere else? What makes it more important, than say, the Belgian GP? Which currently doesnt have a slot. I dont quite see your point that that quote. He basicly says hes prepared to talk to Indy about a race, but wont give them special treatment. That seems perfectly fair to me..."
The sanctioning fee is the question.After F1 screwed over Tony George in 2005 he has every reason to negotiate down from the current $20 million simply because the weekend will be a loss to him otherwise(inclding the other usual expenses).
That's subsidising.
"Of course they want a race. Its yet MORE advertising for Car makers! Just what F1 needs eh? The big teams taking over and ruining the show again!"
Good that we've finally moved on from a ridiculous idea that the manufacturers get enough exposure through other series.
"F1 left America in 1992. Between 1992, and 1999 (the last year before F1 rejoin the States) F1 suffered no problems related to the loss of America."
F1 of 2000's isn't the same as the 1990's.There are completely different players involved.You understand that but continue to argue that because the manufactureless F1 didn't mind not going to the USA it won't matter now.
See how absurd it looks?
And i'm not even mentioning the increased sponsorship from American companies.
"American motorsports didnt suffer with the loss of the American GP."
What does this have to do with anything?
"has not gained since 2000"
Wrong.But you can toot your horn as many times as you wish.
"So again, i ask - wheres the evidence to say that F1 NEEDS America, or vise-versa?"
It's possible to have a good audience there and the people involved don't want to lose the race.
"And please note. WANT a race is a completly different thing to NEED a race"
Yes,short of Haug(or someone else) saying they need a race you will continue to bob and weave.
The sanctioning fee is the question.After F1 screwed over Tony George in 2005 he has every reason to negotiate down from the current $20 million simply because the weekend will be a loss to him otherwise(inclding the other usual expenses).
That's subsidising.
"Of course they want a race. Its yet MORE advertising for Car makers! Just what F1 needs eh? The big teams taking over and ruining the show again!"
Good that we've finally moved on from a ridiculous idea that the manufacturers get enough exposure through other series.
"F1 left America in 1992. Between 1992, and 1999 (the last year before F1 rejoin the States) F1 suffered no problems related to the loss of America."
F1 of 2000's isn't the same as the 1990's.There are completely different players involved.You understand that but continue to argue that because the manufactureless F1 didn't mind not going to the USA it won't matter now.
See how absurd it looks?
And i'm not even mentioning the increased sponsorship from American companies.
"American motorsports didnt suffer with the loss of the American GP."
What does this have to do with anything?
"has not gained since 2000"
Wrong.But you can toot your horn as many times as you wish.
"So again, i ask - wheres the evidence to say that F1 NEEDS America, or vise-versa?"
It's possible to have a good audience there and the people involved don't want to lose the race.
"And please note. WANT a race is a completly different thing to NEED a race"
Yes,short of Haug(or someone else) saying they need a race you will continue to bob and weave.
After F1 screwed over Tony George in 2005 he has every reason to negotiate down from the current $20 million simply because the weekend will be a loss to him otherwise(inclding the other usual expenses).
I agree he needs to be given something back. I personally would have given him the fee back which he paid for 2005, and then (as FOM) demand this money from Michelin. Michelin repaying the fans tickets was good, but that left TG out of pcoket and wasnt fair.
However i dont think bringing the cost down of futrue GPs is the answer. That will lead to a bad chain as other GPs start bringing there costs down for reasons. Compensation, not future price reduction IMO.
Good that we've finally moved on from a ridiculous idea that the manufacturers get enough exposure through other series.
Ah no i didnt say that. Dont twist words M
They can get enough expsure through other series in the US. However the word "enough" doesnt apply in big buisness. Enough is never enough and any way they can they will force there name onto our screens.
F1 of 2000's isn't the same as the 1990's.There are completely different players involved.You understand that but continue to argue that because the manufactureless F1 didn't mind not going to the USA it won't matter now.
That isnt related to anything i said at all.
"American motorsports didnt suffer with the loss of the American GP."
What does this have to do with anything?
Everything. Several people have stated that America needs F1. I disagree, and stated my points above. American motorsports thrived without an American GP.
It's possible to have a good audience there and the people involved don't want to lose the race.
That doesnt answer my point. So i state it again -
So again, i ask - wheres the evidence to say that F1 NEEDS America, or vise-versa?
Thats what Bernie was talking about. The suggestion that F1 NEEDS to be in America. He has said himself that hes very happy to be in talks about an American GP, and surely has no problem with there being one. However all this pressure and shouting about how F1 needs to be in America is just stupid. I love American motorsports and love seeing a GP in America, but to suggest there needs to be one is daft.
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I agree he needs to be given something back. I personally would have given him the fee back which he paid for 2005, and then (as FOM) demand this money from Michelin. Michelin repaying the fans tickets was good, but that left TG out of pcoket and wasnt fair.
However i dont think bringing the cost down of futrue GPs is the answer. That will lead to a bad chain as other GPs start bringing there costs down for reasons. Compensation, not future price reduction IMO.
Good that we've finally moved on from a ridiculous idea that the manufacturers get enough exposure through other series.
Ah no i didnt say that. Dont twist words M
They can get enough expsure through other series in the US. However the word "enough" doesnt apply in big buisness. Enough is never enough and any way they can they will force there name onto our screens.F1 of 2000's isn't the same as the 1990's.There are completely different players involved.You understand that but continue to argue that because the manufactureless F1 didn't mind not going to the USA it won't matter now.
That isnt related to anything i said at all.
"American motorsports didnt suffer with the loss of the American GP."
What does this have to do with anything?
Everything. Several people have stated that America needs F1. I disagree, and stated my points above. American motorsports thrived without an American GP.
It's possible to have a good audience there and the people involved don't want to lose the race.
That doesnt answer my point. So i state it again -
So again, i ask - wheres the evidence to say that F1 NEEDS America, or vise-versa?
Thats what Bernie was talking about. The suggestion that F1 NEEDS to be in America. He has said himself that hes very happy to be in talks about an American GP, and surely has no problem with there being one. However all this pressure and shouting about how F1 needs to be in America is just stupid. I love American motorsports and love seeing a GP in America, but to suggest there needs to be one is daft.
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"Compensation, not future price reduction IMO."
F1 and Ecclestone now screwed him for years to come.
There's no way he can legally demand compensation and there's no way FOM will just give it to him.
"However the word "enough" doesnt apply in big buisness. Enough is never enough and any way they can they will force there name onto our screens."
They see that having F1 there helps sales.That was my point all along.
"That isnt related to anything i said at all."
Mentioning reasons why they didn't have the "need" to go then and like to keep the race now?
Surely you can do better than that.
"Everything. Several people have stated that America needs F1. I disagree, and stated my points above. American motorsports thrived without an American GP."
Yes and there still is a place for a USA GP.
"That doesnt answer my point. So i state it again -
So again, i ask - wheres the evidence to say that F1 NEEDS America, or vise-versa?"
Of course if you keep on ignoring it.
"but to suggest there needs to be one is daft."
You're really hung up on the word "needs".It benefits all parties(and Tony George at a lower price) so there is no reason not to be going there.
F1 and Ecclestone now screwed him for years to come.
There's no way he can legally demand compensation and there's no way FOM will just give it to him.
"However the word "enough" doesnt apply in big buisness. Enough is never enough and any way they can they will force there name onto our screens."
They see that having F1 there helps sales.That was my point all along.
"That isnt related to anything i said at all."
Mentioning reasons why they didn't have the "need"
to go then and like to keep the race now?Surely you can do better than that.
"Everything. Several people have stated that America needs F1. I disagree, and stated my points above. American motorsports thrived without an American GP."
Yes and there still is a place for a USA GP.
"That doesnt answer my point. So i state it again -
So again, i ask - wheres the evidence to say that F1 NEEDS America, or vise-versa?"
Of course if you keep on ignoring it.
"but to suggest there needs to be one is daft."
You're really hung up on the word "needs".It benefits all parties(and Tony George at a lower price
) so there is no reason not to be going there.The idea of a US GP is past it's sell by date, literally, because the race only came to fruition at a time when regulations started taking away grip from the cars and making overtaking more difficult.
It's not a bad idea to have a GP in the U.S.A. and the banked corner at Indianapolis does offer something different for F1, but the infield track really doesn't seem to offer all that much.
It's not a bad idea to have a GP in the U.S.A. and the banked corner at Indianapolis does offer something different for F1, but the infield track really doesn't seem to offer all that much.
@daveellis
i didnt say racing on ovals was just driving in circles,its driving in circles while trying to come first
I think there should be a race in the states because it wouldnt be a true world championship otherwise,but the venue should change to laguna seca the best track in america imo
i didnt say racing on ovals was just driving in circles,its driving in circles while trying to come first
I think there should be a race in the states because it wouldnt be a true world championship otherwise,but the venue should change to laguna seca the best track in america imo
F1 and Ecclestone now screwed him for years to come.
FOM and Eccelstone had nothing to do with the problems at Indy. Michelin, the FIA and the teams unwillingness to find a soultion. Why should Bernie be forced to pay for the crimes of others? Bernie did his best that day to get a race. It was in his interest for the race to go ahead properly.
Yes and there still is a place for a USA GP.
huh? Theres a place for lots of GPs. Theres a whole host of circuits which meet the FIA Grade 1 standards, and even more which are border Grade 1/2 that could host a GP. There is LOTS of places to host a GP, and America is one.
Is F1 willing to go to America and carry on playing second fiddle to CCWS/IRL/NASCAR?
It benefits all parties(and Tony George at a lower price ) so there is no reason not to be going there.
Same could be said about almost any event. Why should America be chosen over them? This really is a case of some people thinking America should have special treatment over others it seems. Subsidies, and no real argument on why America should have a GP over anywhere else. Especailly odd when it contributes so little to f1 in the form of drivers, teams, even with a GP there.
I think there should be a race in the states because it wouldnt be a true world championship otherwise
Why not? Finland doesnt have one, and they have produced far more F1 drivers than America in the last 10 years or so. And anywya, we already have a race in North America, but not one in Africa (unless you count Bahrain i guess, but thats not actually in Africa) but i dotn see anyone complaining about that
If your going to take the word "world" in its strictest sense than we have a major problem. There isnt enough weekends in the year to have a race in every country in the world...
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FOM and Eccelstone had nothing to do with the problems at Indy. Michelin, the FIA and the teams unwillingness to find a soultion. Why should Bernie be forced to pay for the crimes of others? Bernie did his best that day to get a race. It was in his interest for the race to go ahead properly.
Yes and there still is a place for a USA GP.
huh? Theres a place for lots of GPs. Theres a whole host of circuits which meet the FIA Grade 1 standards, and even more which are border Grade 1/2 that could host a GP. There is LOTS of places to host a GP, and America is one.
Is F1 willing to go to America and carry on playing second fiddle to CCWS/IRL/NASCAR?
It benefits all parties(and Tony George at a lower price ) so there is no reason not to be going there.
Same could be said about almost any event. Why should America be chosen over them? This really is a case of some people thinking America should have special treatment over others it seems. Subsidies, and no real argument on why America should have a GP over anywhere else. Especailly odd when it contributes so little to f1 in the form of drivers, teams, even with a GP there.
I think there should be a race in the states because it wouldnt be a true world championship otherwise
Why not? Finland doesnt have one, and they have produced far more F1 drivers than America in the last 10 years or so. And anywya, we already have a race in North America, but not one in Africa (unless you count Bahrain i guess, but thats not actually in Africa) but i dotn see anyone complaining about that
If your going to take the word "world" in its strictest sense than we have a major problem. There isnt enough weekends in the year to have a race in every country in the world...-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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I was'nt talking world as in different countrys(that would be stupid)but continents lol and montreal(spelling?) is in canada not north america!
"FOM and Eccelstone had nothing to do with the problems at Indy. Michelin, the FIA and the teams unwillingness to find a soultion. Why should Bernie be forced to pay for the crimes of others? Bernie did his best that day to get a race. It was in his interest for the race to go ahead properly."
I mean his current statement.Hence "now".Statements like that won't make the people like F1 more.
"huh?"
In 2000 it was the second biggest OW race just behind the 500 in terms of attendance and TV ratings.
"Is F1 willing to go to America and carry on playing second fiddle to CCWS/IRL/NASCAR?"
Apparently they are.Can't for the life of me understand why.
"Same could be said about almost any event. Why should America be chosen over them?"
It's not a question of USA GP over anyone else.You made that one up.
"Especailly odd when it contributes so little to f1 in the form of drivers, teams, even with a GP there."
I don't suppose that Greece or whatever is the next country that considers having f1 there de rigeur contributes to F1.
I mean his current statement.Hence "now".Statements like that won't make the people like F1 more.
"huh?"
In 2000 it was the second biggest OW race just behind the 500 in terms of attendance and TV ratings.
"Is F1 willing to go to America and carry on playing second fiddle to CCWS/IRL/NASCAR?"
Apparently they are.Can't for the life of me understand why.
"Same could be said about almost any event. Why should America be chosen over them?"
It's not a question of USA GP over anyone else.You made that one up.
"Especailly odd when it contributes so little to f1 in the form of drivers, teams, even with a GP there."
I don't suppose that Greece or whatever is the next country that considers having f1 there de rigeur contributes to F1.
Wow hold up....Canada is not in North America? When did this happen?
For those who are geographically challenged, here is a map of North America
Altho Mexico is often refered to Central America. Canada can be found on that map as the big green bit
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For those who are geographically challenged, here is a map of North America
Altho Mexico is often refered to Central America. Canada can be found on that map as the big green bit
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