Braking goes wrong...

Can anyone explain Why in Bahrain Massa's car snapped into a spin under braking and Christian Kliens did the same in Melbourne. Doesn't make sense to me. Why does the car snap sidewards and spin? I would understand if the car was broken.




Surely braking for every corner is exactly the same.

You don't snap sidewards when braking hard in a road car....

Thanks in advance

Martin Brundle said that Massa locked his rear brakes in Bahrain

Not sure about the technicalities of how it happens........

Not sure about Klien

klien was involved in contact at the 1sr corner. Anything at the rear could have broken.

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have you never done it in GP4 or GP3, where you brake heavy and the back steps out?

the weight transfers to the front, so the rear goes light, so any braking pressure applied can lock the rears easier than they lock the fronts, because the rears are unloaded and "light".

and partly cos Massa is a n00b.

as for Klien, braking while going round a corner can also transfer the weight in a funny way, if he was braking while going round the right-kink. and as Peat said, his suspension could have been slightly out of line, caising hiom to spear off.

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RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael

lol i love the way klien wrecks the marker board :D

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there IS a small bump in the surface out there in the braking zone for that corner.. so the rear might have locked-up

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Muks put it simply

Didnt Williams active suspension keep the car at the same ride hieght at all times?! Or something of the similar? To counter this effect etc?

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

Lots of cars in '93 had active suspension which kept the ideal ride height at all times whether the car was full of fuel or not, Lotus pioneered this idea and it was first raced in 1987. I reckon it probably did help the cars under braking but not that much.

thanks for this, I still don't fully understand but now I have more of an idea

with active suspension, did the car "roll" into the corner, like a plane when it banks? so unlike a roadcar that rolls left if you're turning right, did the F1 car roll right when turning right and left when turning left?

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RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael

There isn't one part of that sentance i did not not didn't not understand...

What is banking and "rolling"?

When you lock the rears up you lose much of the braking force to the rear tyres, which means that the front of the car is slowing faster than the front, and if you aren't braking in a dead straight line the back end of the car can "overtake" the front end. When you lock up the fronts then the front tyres are skidding along the road, so you can't turn the car. This is why brake bias is one of the most important parts of setup, you need to get it perfect so you can't lock up the fronts or rears too easily.

With active suspension I don't think they rolled into the corner, the main advantage was that they ran the car at the optimum aerodynamic ride height at all times, so during the corner the outer suspension would tighten to compensate for body roll, but I don't think they didn't start leaning the other way, they kept it about parallel to the road.

It depends on the setup heavily as well, for example, stiff ARB's will result in less weight transfer to the inside tyres when turning / braking, so the car is more likely to lose grip and just snap out (hence, snap oversteer)

And like Race_Monkey said, screw up your brake balance and your car will be buggered in a matter of laps

"Surely braking for every corner is exactly the same.

You don't snap sidewards when braking hard in a road car....

Thanks in advance"

just not really. Every turn have a their way to brake. The only similarity is the foot on the brake.

we always see MS adjusting the brake bias from 1 corner to the next, to get it absolutely perfect.


"There isn't one part of that sentance i did not not didn't not understand... "

there are so many "not" and "didn't"'s in that sentence, i don't know if you're saying you did or did not understand what i wrote

when you're in a roadcar, and you turn right, your body wants to go left relative to the car, yes? if viewed from outside, the car appears to "roll" to the left when it's turning right, yes?

when a plane turns, it "rolls" or "banks" into the turn, that's the difference between roadcars and planes.

i was asking if active suspension allowed the car to "roll" or "bank" like a plane.

@ Race_Monkey, so active cars didn't roll into the corners, but stiffened the outer suspension to keep it flat with no roll, is that correct?

about braking and turning, i have often had big accidents at the hairpin at Suzuka in GP4 because you start braking just as you're going through the fast right kink, and if you lock up there, you can be in the scenery in no time. you have to try to either delay your braking till your car is straight, and brake a lot harder, or brake earlier but less to try not to lock up.

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RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2006 02:41PM by Muks_C.

I've never had problems there, I always lose it in turn 2 braking cos the car is drifting to the outside of the track.

And probably cos the car is bottoming out cos the plank is so low :P

zeppelin101 Wrote:
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> I've never had problems there, I always lose it in
> turn 2 braking cos the car is drifting to the
> outside of the track.
>
> And probably cos the car is bottoming out cos the
> plank is so low :P
>

I loose it into their too :P

Suzuka is the only track im good at.

The only one i race actually lol.

Or did, until uninstalled lol

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

Yep muks, that was my interpretation of how it worked. Bear in mind that they could adjust the settings based on what track and corner you were at, so there would be different settings depending on the camber of the corner or how much the driver tends to use the kerbs etc.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2006 03:56PM by Race_Monkey.

i remember on the '93 season review tape, it showed the williams without it's bodywork, and Jonathan Ross said something like "here's the Williams flexing its muscles" because the car was automatically going up and down and leaning one way then the other, like it was running through the setting or something.

did the car "know" where it was on the track at any point, so it could set itself up accordingly? i doubt the driver would have enought mental capacity to change the setting as he was driving, so did the car do it itself depending where it was, or were the engineers doing it from the pits via computers? interesting stuff.

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RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael

It never "knew" where it was no, it calculated what was the optimum setting by analysing the acceleration, retardation and g forces of the car.

ie, if you braked hard for a corner the front wouldnt be lower to the track than the rear under braking, the active suspension would calculate the suspension so the car was always at the optimum aerodynamic height, allowing the car to remain parallel to the road surface at all times, even under heavy braking and acceleration.

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