Is this allowed ?

and not making your teammate move over every race every year for the last 10 years

Please tell me you're not implying this is what Michael has done. If you're not, then forget this.

i don't think it matters whether it's race 1 or 16 if you are against team orders then you can't suddenly decide that's it's ok cause montoya has a chance of winning the championship.

you either agree with them or you don't

It's just amazing isn't it? As soon as Montoya is in with a sniff of the World title, team orders suddenly become acceptable and the right course of action. Unbelievable. And what has happened to this attitude, Ellis:

"You know, whats the point in F1 if they cant race? Really? Why do they spend millions of pounds?" - from a thread about Ferrari team orders.

What's changed? Why would it be acceptable for Ralf to move over for Montoya, even when Ralf is mathematically out of the equation?




HISTORIC BTCC VIDEOS

Williams and Mclaren both have a policy which is that both team mates are equal

They are allowed to race against each other so long as they dont take each other off.


When 1 driver out of the 2 is no longer mathematically able to challenge for the title he may be asked to assist the one that is.


fair enough.


what aint ecceptable is when a team has outright number 1 status and the number 2 is pulling over and gifting points after the first few races.


Thats what the problem is






LS's Tip of the week
ESSENTIAL OILS aren't essential unless you're an engine, a gearbox or a twat

here here



____
Tony

Yes that is the problem. It was stupid. But that's not what was being argued after Austria 2002. It was the issue of letting your drivers race at all times, keeping the sporting element and letting the fastest man win. Team orders prevented this on occasions - and will prevent it in the future. But since when has any form of team order become acceptable? I'll tell you since when. Since it might benefit someone other than Michael Schumacher...

As I have said countless times I have no problem with team orders. I will have no problem if Williams use them. I do, however, have a problem with the blatent double standards (yes, Ellis!) of the anti-MS brigade.




HISTORIC BTCC VIDEOS

i understand what your saying alex but last year really took the piss

total domination yet ferrari still had to make a mockery of F1 by staging race finishes


When Irvine delibrately held up JV at suzuka in 97 i did'nt think that was acceptable either


that is why many people dislike ferrari, for taking the piss like they did.


but letting the drivers race til the end of the season only to then try and protect their championship asperations is'nt wrong






LS's Tip of the week
ESSENTIAL OILS aren't essential unless you're an engine, a gearbox or a twat

But, who of you think that Ralf is going to let Montoya pass anyway. Remeber that JPM said that if ralf was in that situation, he won't let him pass, because he didn't do it in France 01. So JPM is will have to fight it by himself.

yeah but they were'nt in a title fight back then, that was just for a race victory






LS's Tip of the week
ESSENTIAL OILS aren't essential unless you're an engine, a gearbox or a twat

all i have heard re ferrari is they have riuned the spirit of f1,i agree about austria being blatant race fixing,but what annoys me is the atitude if one driver can no longer win the championship then it's ok meaning that is acceptable team orders,each gp is individual and if i knew in the last few gp that if ralf was genuinly leading he would forfit his position to help montoya it is still the same, it is not allowing drivers to race.

you are either for drivers racing each other or you arn't,to change opinion and suggest ralf to assist montoya is still denying your drivers to race,whether you do like austria or not it is still the same thing you are affecting the race result,first race or last.


you either agree with team orders or you don't,to claim it's acceptable to help a team mate at the end of the season is still teams orders

i understand what your saying alex but last year really took the piss

I totally agree with you on that issue. Austria 2002 was a shambles.

Ferrari were totally unprepared for the reaction. They didn't do it with bad intentions, just for a moment they didn't really think of the consequences, and it backfired.




HISTORIC BTCC VIDEOS

Please tell me you're not implying this is what Michael has done. If you're not, then forget this.

i don't think it matters whether it's race 1 or 16 if you are against team orders then you can't suddenly decide that's it's ok cause montoya has a chance of winning the championship.

you either agree with them or you don't

It's just amazing isn't it? As soon as Montoya is in with a sniff of the World title, team orders suddenly become acceptable and the right course of action. Unbelievable. And what has happened to this attitude, Ellis:

here we go, its convienient to ignore the meat, and whole point of a post, over looking the main comments (about how there are several types of team orders, which if you look at the archive you will see we ALWAYS MENTIONED, SO ITS NOT LIKE WE SUDDENLY CHANGED BECAUSE OF MONTOYA) its not as black and white as agreeing or not agreeing, as has been clear since austria 02, you just always overlook and ignore the meat of the post, mainly because you cant argue with facts, logic.....

and yes, i am implying that against ms, its in his contract ffs, LMAO, again, no argument....



------------------------------------

24 Heures Du Mans 18-19 June 2005

The best thing about Williams is they don't care who wins the championship so I doubt they will stage finishes like Ferrari did. At least they'll have the decency to be more subtle about it.

Andrew, would you care to quote Schumacher's contract?

Bet ya can't.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function. -- F.Scott Fitzgerald

and not making your teammate move over every race every year for the last 10 years

Please tell me you're not implying this is what Michael has done. If you're not, then forget this.

i don't think it matters whether it's race 1 or 16 if you are against team orders then you can't suddenly decide that's it's ok cause montoya has a chance of winning the championship.

you either agree with them or you don't

It's just amazing isn't it? As soon as Montoya is in with a sniff of the World title, team orders suddenly become acceptable and the right course of action. Unbelievable. And what has happened to this attitude, Ellis:

"You know, whats the point in F1 if they cant race? Really? Why do they spend millions of pounds?" - from a thread about Ferrari team orders.

What's changed? Why would it be acceptable for Ralf to move over for Montoya, even when Ralf is mathematically out of the equation?



Alex you know the situations are different for the reasons already said why are you even bothering? when Salo was told to move over at Hockenheim in 99 I didn't have a problem with that, same with MS in Sepang 99.

"You know, whats the point in F1 if they cant race? Really? Why do they spend millions of pounds?" - from a thread about Ferrari team orders.

What's changed? Why would it be acceptable for Ralf to move over for Montoya, even when Ralf is mathematically out of the equation?

Because it wud be impossible for Ralf to win the title, but being a team sport, there is no good reason why he shudnt let JPM through

Of course, when its Ferrari, Rubnes cant win the title, becasue Ferrari wont let him.

Like others have said, alex theres a difference in situations here. If Rubens moved over at the final race to allow Michael to win cos Rubens had no chance of winning, there is no problem. Where there is a problem is taking rubens out of the equation at race 1.

I also wasnt bothered abiut Salo moving over.

Sry alex, but like you psot all the time "POINT IRRELEVENT" - dont bother replying - those two words in your head mean the argument is over




Racing Is Life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting
Jesus may be able to heal the sick and bring the dead back to life, but he can't do shît for low fps

Alex you know the situations are different for the reasons already said why are you even bothering?

I am bothering because I can see that clearly the attitude has already changed towards team orders. And I don't give a monkey's what type of team orders you are talking about.

After Austria 2002, every type of team order became absolutely unacceptable. Just check out the threads - do a search for "team orders" or something. I did, and I just had to chuckle at how the opinion has reversed now that it's not an issue with Ferrari.

Nobody cared why team orders should be carried out, in whatever manner. Everybody was arguing that they destroyed the racing element. I even quoted Ellis. Back then, you would not have cared if Rubens was mathematically out of the equation. Don't bother trying to say you would. The hatred for Ferrari and car-switching was so strong at that stage, that any sniff of team orders, whether the driver was out of the equation or not, would have been come down on like a tonne of bricks. But now, in 2003, with Williams considering it, it is not. And that is my point.

All I'm wondering is since when has the attitude towards team orders changed from "it should never happen, it's disregarding the sporting element, and a disgrace to F1", to "it's ok, if the one driver is out of the equation". Well, actually, I'm not wondering, because as I've mentioned, I know exactly when and why it has changed.

Besides, Ferrari have never counted out Rubens right from race one (if you can give me an example to prove that they have, I will concede). Austria was race six, and Michael had 44 points. Rubens had 6. Who is looking the stronger? If it's ok to use team orders when someone is out of the equation, why isn't it ok to use them when someone is that far behind that it would be unprofitable to let the other driver win? Because that is, after all, why you're suggesting Williams should use team orders, aren't you? For one driver's profit?

Once again, I'd just like to stress that I do not have a problem with team orders. Never have. Just a problem with the pendulum attitude of the people who dislike Ferrari.




HISTORIC BTCC VIDEOS

barrichello was mathematically out of the championship the day he signed for ferrari.
i don't think montoya will be expecting any favours from his main rivals little brother, and he wil be wanting to win by beating every driver out there.
ralf still has a half decent chance, so he wont be giving up yet.
and besides ferrari have been taking the piss too long, and fair enough if evryone else uses team orders to beat them.
f1 is a team sport after all.



____
Tony

What happens then if Kimi wins Hungary, Ralf finishes second and JP and MS both fail to finish? Who will do what then...?

---

"Treat others with respect and you too will be respected." Oac - ed'c dnia - E ys yldiymmo drec cyt.

its all if's and but's at the moment


lets wait and see what happens for the remainder of the season


then we can slug it out in the forums :D






LS's Tip of the week
ESSENTIAL OILS aren't essential unless you're an engine, a gearbox or a twat

i think kimi can win hungary!

then it will be even closer

this is what i want to happen for hungary:

1. Kimi
2. Montoya
2. Rubens
4.Ralf
5. DC
6. MS


hehe

nope i disagree either williams or ferrari.
betta rain if so michael wins.



Ferrari forever