Official 2014 Belgian Grand Prix thread ***SPOILERS with monkey seats***

Perhaps a better contrast video would be Abu Dhabi 2012, with Grosjean and Rosberg as the involved.

Mirroring the recent clash, Rosberg is on the outside at the first corner, and then behind and on the inside for the second. Granted, he was the one to be overtaken, but he had significantly less room to manoeuvre, and he also had the choice of yielding or using the tarmac run-off area. Here he also decided to stay on the inside, and given his position with the majority of the car alongside Grosjean, there would be a lot to say for him having the right to challenge even though it was probably still impossible. What did he have to say about that? Grosjean was not to blame:

Rosberg believes Grosjean not to blame for Abu Dhabi GP crash

Quote
"I can't blame him, I can't blame myself either," said Rosberg in his post-race video blog. "I think it was just a racing incident. Things just got a bit tight."

There is no mention at all, that Grosjean "left him no space" as he said about the incident with Hamilton this weekend, and we can certainly claim that Grosjean's obligation to leave space would be far greater in that incident, than Hamilton's ever was this weekend. Yet he absolves Grosjean of any blame.

As you can see, Grosjean suffered a puncture... and both parties suffered damage.

video: [www.youtube.com] Sorry, I can't get the embedded video to work for some reason...

So, let's summarize...

Rosberg had much less space with Grosjean. He had better claims to hold his position. He had the exact same options of aborting. The contact was much harder. Grosjean was not to blame. Hamilton left him no room. Self-serving reasoning? I think so.

I wonder what Grosjean had done, if Rosberg had told him right after the race and to his face, "that he could have avoided contact, but he chose to let it happen to prove a point". I don't think Grosjean would have been very pleased with that, and I find it hard to believe that he would not have said it to the press in an angry tone. Even with Grosjean's status of the crash happy black sheep of the grid, I doubt many would have supported Rosberg in that either. Frankly, I think most would have said Rosberg had suffered some sort of mental meltdown to say such a thing. But this year with Hamilton, it's okay?

In fact, going back to that race thread here on the forums, nobody even talked about that incident. All the posts are discussing other aspects of the race.

That is something to make you go hmmmm.....

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2014 02:56AM by Morbid.

when Rosberg refers to Bahrain, I believe he means this accident:

[www.youtube.com]


looking at it now, lewis did react quite arrogantly in the Exit of turn 4. He had 4/5 of the track free on the right side, yet he drove Rosberg off the track. Indeed, hamilton not only presed Rosberg, he literally drove him off the track. And in this case, it is clear for everyone to see how far alongside Rosberg was.


This, of course does not clear rosberg of all his wrongdoings on sunday (well only one wrongdoing really). However, this puts it in a good perspective, Rosberg's reaction. Honestly, you can feel how arrogant hamilton is, just by listening to him speaking. When he acts like that, tells you you are not a German without any reason whatsoever, drives you off the track, and refuses to obay Team orders (in Hungary), it could kinda drive someone mad.

Furthermore, lewis' comments that the Team is priority number one are completely correct - but he would NEVER comply with this principle, if he is the one who would lose from it. Hungary is a very good example. it is completely clear that Rosberg would have scored more Points for the Team, had hamilton not kept him behind for 10+ laps, before rosberg's final pitstop.I wonder where were Lauda and Wolf then - because again, RBR stole Points from them. True not as many as last sunday, but I dare say, Rosberg could have even won the Thing in Hungary.

My personal opinion is that the reactions from both - Lauda and toto - are "unacceptable". True, Rosberg probably was at fault, but what he said was spot on "I was not satisfied with how the situations in Bahrain and Hungary were handled in the Team". I could never imagine jean todt, Ron dennis or frank williams speak like the Merc Management did. Let me Quote "Rosberg will be punished because he was guilty. If lewis things it will be a slap on the wrist, he does not know how much power we have" - or something along those lines. In all Fairness I have not heard anything from Paddy - why is no one interviewing the guy??

If nico wants team orders then let's go through it.

He would not have been allowed to race in Bahrain, Spain or Spa. Lewis has never actually had to pass nico in a race apart from Austria.

This year is being decided by car problems anyway and not on the track. The only race lewis messed up was Austria and that was due to quali.

In a funny kind of way... Hamilton himself has created his worst emery this year.

This is not to excuse any skullduggery by Rosberg... And as "broken record" as it is, Hamilton himself set the tone at Bahrain with his aggressive defense and by using the engine setting that he was told not to.

This clearly irked Rosberg, and he's steadily upped the ante since.

Hamilton has always shown that he's willing to metaphorically stick his elbows out to clear his way, but it seems he has a problem with it when someone else sticks some elbow back in his way.

Rosberg has simply showed that he is not going to be the doormat that Hamilton thought and wanted him to be.

In some ways they both need to man up now, they're racing for the F1 championship, this is big boys stuff.. not nursery play ground squabbles. If they're going to play the big boys game then they both need to withstand the odd bit of flak.


It's about time that Hamilton accepts that Rosberg is not simply going to roll over and concede this championship to him, (why should he? This could be Rosberg's best and only shot at the tiltle) and he's going to have to beat him by being the overall better driver and not simply because he convinced himself that he's the more worthy driver.

I kind of hope that Rosberg wins this championship.

I won't say that I want Rosberg to win the championship as currently on balance Hamilton probably deserves it more. Rosberg has surprised me, putting pressure on Hamilton more than I thought he would, but Hamilton has been compromised by the team more, and in a head-to-head, he's come out on top more than not.

But, before Melbourne, you could argue that Hamilton should be aiming to be a 3 time champion or even 4 time champion (2007 he threw away himself, 2008 he won by an inch and 2014 you'd have argued he should have won at a canter) and on pace alone he perhaps should have won in 2012 too (but for a few mistakes from McLaren), but he's only won the title once and is behind at the moment. Is he suffering from the pressure himself? Up until Spa he'd made more key mistakes than Rosberg this season after all (both in qualifying admittedly, but glaring mistakes they were). Was his taking of the racing line with little respect of Rosberg an act of pressure in itself, trying to prove a point and exert dominance over Rosberg? If Rosberg was in Hamilton's blind-spot then Hamilton couldn't just assume that Rosberg was fully behind him, surely?

If he retains some team support and goes on to win it, I don't think Rosberg would be an undeserving world champion, as he's up against one of the supposed mega-6 of the last few years, but if he is to do it I hope he goes out and beats him fairly in the coming races. If Hamilton wins it he undoubtedly deserves it. Monza will be fascinating.

So no one wanted to comment on my post? That is somewhat disappointing, but I guess there was not much that could be said against it.

Reading mitadumapaga's post, he distances himself from previous events justifying Rosberg's antics, but still proceeds to use it anyway, to show events from previous races and off track incidents, actually justify on-track antics that push the very limits of the sporting regulations. This sentiment is echoed in later posts. That is a slippery slope, a very slippery one indeed.

Moving on to the content itself.

mitadumapaga Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> when Rosberg refers to Bahrain, I believe he means
> this accident:
>
> [www.youtube.com]
>
>
> looking at it now, lewis did react quite
> arrogantly in the Exit of turn 4. He had 4/5 of
> the track free on the right side, yet he drove
> Rosberg off the track. Indeed, hamilton not only
> presed Rosberg, he literally drove him off the
> track. And in this case, it is clear for everyone
> to see how far alongside Rosberg was.

> This, of course does not clear rosberg of all his
> wrongdoings on sunday (well only one wrongdoing
> really). However, this puts it in a good
> perspective, Rosberg's reaction. Honestly, you can
> feel how arrogant hamilton is, just by listening
> to him speaking. When he acts like that, tells you
> you are not a German without any reason
> whatsoever, drives you off the track, and refuses
> to obay Team orders (in Hungary), it could kinda
> drive someone mad.


I think a great case could be made for Rosberg having no qualms with such moves, and thus has no right to take offence. One could even argue, that he taught Hamilton, that it is perfectly acceptable on track behaviour. Case in point, two incidents at Bahrain 2012.

Rosberg vs Alonso

Direct link = [www.youtube.com]

Rosberg vs Hamilton


Direct link = [www.youtube.com]


> Furthermore, lewis' comments that the Team is
> priority number one are completely correct - but
> he would NEVER comply with this principle, if he
> is the one who would lose from it.

Fair enough that you hold that. But he did in fact obey team orders that gave Fernando an uncontested win at Monaco. So I think NEVER is hyperbole.

> Hungary is a
> very good example. it is completely clear that
> Rosberg would have scored more Points for the
> Team, had hamilton not kept him behind for 10+
> laps, before rosberg's final pitstop.

Before the season, the team and drivers agreed that team orders would not be deployed. They chose to do so anyway. Rosberg has the right be disappointed when the team told him Hamilton would move over. Hamilton equally has the right to be disappointed that the team forgot their ethos. He also has the right to hold them to their word given to him. Hungary was not Rosberg, and it was not Hamilton. It was the team. Furthermore, Rosberg seems to have been quick enough to want to capitalise on the sudden appearance of a team order. I doubt he would have done so had the roles been reversed.

> I wonder
> where were Lauda and Wolf then - because again,
> RBR stole Points from them. True not as many as
> last sunday, but I dare say, Rosberg could have
> even won the Thing in Hungary.

Lauda defended Hamilton's right to not move over. Toto Wolff was busy in the garage showing Rosberg he would have won, had the team order been obeyed. After that he went directly to the press and related that as fact. It was a stupid move, because it only fanned the fire already burning in Rosberg. But in any case, it was in no way clear the team rushed out in defence of Hamilton. More to the point, they ended up admitting error on their own part.

> My personal opinion is that the reactions from
> both - Lauda and toto - are "unacceptable". True,
> Rosberg probably was at fault, but what he said
> was spot on "I was not satisfied with how the
> situations in Bahrain and Hungary were handled in
> the Team".

Which means you talk to your team, instead of starting on track antics. That is probably the main reason Button could have a working relationship with Hamilton, and Fernando could not. It's tit for tat to be sure, but going tit, then talk things out and agreeing that the problems are solved, and THEN go tat, will not solve anything. There is no way that will lead to improved relationships.

> I could never imagine jean todt, Ron
> dennis or frank williams speak like the Merc
> Management did. Let me Quote "Rosberg will be
> punished because he was guilty. If lewis things it
> will be a slap on the wrist, he does not know how
> much power we have" - or something along those
> lines. In all Fairness I have not heard anything
> from Paddy - why is no one interviewing the guy??

LoL, Ron that stormed into the Arrows garage and told Bernoldi that he would destroy his career because he dared to race DC at Monaco? The Ron Dennis that humilated JPM by publically calling him fat, and bullying both Kimi and JPM out of the team? The Ron Dennis that sends angry and scolding mails to his drivers even when they win? Surely you must be joking?!? The Jean Todt that pulled team orders in the most dominant season F1 had ever seen, creating the greatest team order scandal in F1 history, who then proceeded to threaten Barichello with terminating his contract if he did not blindly accept team orders immediately in the future? It is that Jean Todt we are talking about, right?

And if you have such a problem with team orders being disobeyed, then where were you at the Chinese GP, when Vettel said "Tough luck" to team orders favouring Ricciardo? I mean, someone disobeying team orders, in a team that does not run team orders, irks you quite a deal. But when a driver that has hailed team orders, insisted on them and profitted from them quite a deal, in a team that uses team orders, disobeys them, you are no where to be seen? In fact, no one the Chinese GP thread seemed to make a point of it. But when Hamilton does, when he has the right to expect they won't be used, it is a big problem! I call Hypocrisy with a capitalised H.

Rosberg could just have well radioed "But we don't use team orders?", but once he had the chance to profit from them, he embraced them. When that failed on track, he used them to gain sympathy and support off track. Self-serving? I think so. Classy and sporting gentlemanship? Certainly not. It stands to reason, that Vettel to disobeying team orders is certainly worse, than Hamilton disobeying them. Yet, we don't see Ricciardo reintroducing the issue again and again do we? We don't see Ricciardo "trying to prove a point" to Vettel with on track antics, do we? No, instead he just goes about his business and let the racing do the talking. That's the classy thing to do.

And speaking of classy and sporting gentlemanship, Jenson Button has thoroughly slammed Rosberg's Spa antics, and doesn't think that Rosberg would be a deserving champion:

Article

Quote
Jenson Button
“I don’t know what that was,” said Button. “Any driver would look at it, and I am sure Nico would look at it, and say, ‘What was I thinking?’ There was nothing there. All he could do was go off the circuit.”

Quote
Jenson Button
"It was just one of those things that shouldn’t have happened. It is a shame that it is not a cleaner fight. I always said that whoever won the championship this year would have done the best job on the circuit.

“That does not seem the way it is at the moment. It is quite unusual what is going on. They are losing points hand over fist. He has a 29-point over Lewis, and Lewis only has a 35-point lead in front of Ricciardo.”

Even Massa, who has no reason to love Hamilton seems to think that a penalty would not have been out of order:

Article

Quote
Felipe Massa
"Maybe Nico created a problem for the other guy and maybe he should have been penalised," said Massa.

"He was outside, so when he touched the car he was in a position where it was impossible to overtake.

"He touched the other car and the other car blew the tyre, so in my opinion the way it was is not fair.

Edit: What the hell is wrong with my embedded videos? Don't we use the "youtube in hard brackets", ended with "slash youtube hard brackets" any more? Anyway, I provided direct links below the embedded ones.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2014 01:43AM by Morbid.

Everyone thinks nico is so clean due to how nice he is.

Webber could not stand him if you remember back, how many times did he make contact with ms when they were team mates? A lot.

He turned left then right he knew what he was doing, every driver knows how easy it is to cause a tyre to go down. Maybe he thought he would be ok with his wing? He still should have won the race but later ruined his tyres.

Sorry but I'm 100% sure it was nicos fault and it was done on purpose. Why else risk your front wing in a none over taking move.

Lewis should also keep his mouth shut with regards to team maters and I cannot see him being in that team next year. Think he will end up back at mclaren.

marcl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Everyone thinks nico is so clean due to how nice
> he is.
>
> Webber could not stand him if you remember back,
> how many times did he make contact with ms when
> they were team mates? A lot.

Funny you should say that... Rosberg actually did the exact same move in 2010 against MS. Overtake on the outside, then have the inside for the following part of the chicane, but the pass was not completed and it was impossible to complete it. He had the same option of taking to the tarmac run-off and abort them move, but what happened? He punted MS into a spin! That makes it three very similar incidents in five seasons (I don't know if there are more), with the exact same judgement error on the part of Rosberg... that looks like a pattern to me!



Direct link: [www.youtube.com]

---

It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

"Tit for tat" is very good discriptive term for what this rivalry now is.

As for who is to blame, is more guilty than the other? Well, they've both played the game.

We can find as many old YouTube clips or press cuttings to bolster our arguments as we like, but the fact is that all the drivers have race raft skeletons in their closets if you look hard enough for them, no matter how personable a persona they may front before the cameras.

I think Hamilton is better off sticking with Merc for now, McLaren / Ferrari are at the bottom of restructuring and are still in all kinds of disarray. Red Bull? No chance. Williams, Lotus? Can't afford him.

J i m Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Tit for tat" is very good discriptive term for
> what this rivalry now is.
>
> As for who is to blame, is more guilty than the
> other? Well, they've both played the game.

To that I would agree.


> We can find as many old YouTube clips or press
> cuttings to bolster our arguments as we like, but
> the fact is that all the drivers have race raft
> skeletons in their closets if you look hard enough
> for them, no matter how personable a persona they
> may front before the cameras.

I agree that all drivers have ghosts from the past, but they don't all pertain to the situations they get into in the here and now. There is this question of relevance, and I didn't ignore that. I took time to research this and care not to involve things that were clearly irrelevant. I also took time to string together at least some measure of reasonable argumentation for the case I presented. It's disappointing to have all that thrown out by a blanket statement such as that. I'd rather prefer that you'd demonstrated me wrong, unfair, having forgotten something important, or had admitted there was at least something to the points I was getting at. In the latter case, you would have learned something for future discussions (which I think we will have, since there is no reason to think this will not get out of hand), or in the former case, that I would have learned something. I maybe stubborn and abrasive at times, but I really do appreciate both.

> I think Hamilton is better off sticking with Merc
> for now, McLaren / Ferrari are at the bottom of
> restructuring and are still in all kinds of
> disarray. Red Bull? No chance. Williams, Lotus?
> Can't afford him.

McLaren might be an option, and the Honda deal does bring promise. It seems that they are coaxing drivers to join them, as they are publically holding their current drivers in the unknown. But I don't think Ron would ever reach out for him. Lewis would have to come and ask for the seat. Ferrari... pfffttt.... Red Bull? Not going to happen. You can already see how a partnership with Vettel would bring many times more trouble than the current one. It would be at least on the scale of the rivalry with Fernando. And I agree that he'd not take the pay cut needed for other teams to sign him.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2014 08:47AM by Morbid.

Morbid schrieb:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Lauda defended Hamilton's right to not move over.
> Toto Wolff was busy in the garage showing Rosberg
> he would have won, had the team order been obeyed.
> After that he went directly to the press and
> related that as fact. It was a stupid move,
> because it only fanned the fire already burning in
> Rosberg. But in any case, it was in no way clear
> the team rushed out in defence of Hamilton. More
> to the point, they ended up admitting error on
> their own part.


I like that you bring that up. In my view, this is the fundamental issue in the team: there always has to be someone who has made an error. They are a team. They win as one and should gracefully lose as one too. What I mean is that it would be much more professional to simply say: we will discuss it internally period. rather than start pointing the finger at drivers/ staff/ raceengineers etc.

I would like to make a point about ferrari here, if it is allright. I am studyin business administration and strategy in particular. Good Business strategy, which is what ferrari desperately need right now, starts by identifying what is the critical problem. And defining the problem as underperformance is a fundemental error, which inevitably leads to bad strategy. To me personally, Ferrari seem to do exactly that - I base my opinion on the facts that the team has been cutting off staff like crazy - from Chris Dyer through Domenicalli to Luca Marmorini. Let us not forget that when Ferrari were as dominant as a team in f1 could ever be -i.e. in 2004, Domenicalli was in the team - on the pit wall as a matter of fact. So he CAN be a useful resource to the team. Probably same goes to Luca Marmorini, CHris Dyer and anyone laid off. And what replacement people did they bring in place of the guys who got layed off?

I would be interested what your view on the situation is.


> LoL, Ron that stormed into the Arrows garage and
> told Bernoldi that he would destroy his career
> because he dared to race DC at Monaco? The Ron
> Dennis that humilated JPM by publically calling
> him fat, and bullying both Kimi and JPM out of the
> team? The Ron Dennis that sends angry and scolding
> mails to his drivers even when they win? Surely
> you must be joking?!? The Jean Todt that pulled
> team orders in the most dominant season F1 had
> ever seen, creating the greatest team order
> scandal in F1 history, who then proceeded to
> threaten Barichello with terminating his contract
> if he did not blindly accept team orders
> immediately in the future? It is that Jean Todt we
> are talking about, right?
>
> And if you have such a problem with team orders
> being disobeyed, then where were you at the
> Chinese GP, when Vettel said "Tough luck" to team
> orders favouring Ricciardo? I mean, someone
> disobeying team orders, in a team that does not
> run team orders, irks you quite a deal. But when a
> driver that has hailed team orders, insisted on
> them and profitted from them quite a deal, in a
> team that uses team orders, disobeys them, you are
> no where to be seen? In fact, no one the Chinese
> GP thread seemed to make a point of it. But when
> Hamilton does, when he has the right to expect
> they won't be used, it is a big problem! I call
> Hypocrisy with a capitalised H.
>
> Rosberg could just have well radioed "But we don't
> use team orders?", but once he had the chance to
> profit from them, he embraced them. When that
> failed on track, he used them to gain sympathy and
> support off track. Self-serving? I think so.
> Classy and sporting gentlemanship? Certainly not.
> It stands to reason, that Vettel to disobeying
> team orders is certainly worse, than Hamilton
> disobeying them. Yet, we don't see Ricciardo
> reintroducing the issue again and again do we? We
> don't see Ricciardo "trying to prove a point" to
> Vettel with on track antics, do we? No, instead he
> just goes about his business and let the racing do
> the talking. That's the classy thing to do.


I must admit fault on my side. I guess that this little part of my post was not well thought over.



> And speaking of classy and sporting gentlemanship,
> Jenson Button has thoroughly slammed Rosberg's Spa
> antics, and doesn't think that Rosberg would be a
> deserving champion:

We had Hakkinen, Hill and many others who had the spirit to be gentlemanship-like champions. We also had Schumacher, Senna, Prost and others, who crashed into teammates or rivals, introduced in-team policies and hit people with 250km/h off track. Still, I cannot say that Hill is more worthy champion than Schumacher, or that Hakkinen is more worthy champion than Prost. Thus, I cannot accept Jenson's opinion. I still believe that if all drivers raced like he does, f1 would be significantly more boring, if indeed a lot more gentlemanship fuelled. Finally, Jenson only fought for a title once in his life in F1, and I guess it has been too far so he has forgotten the tension involved. There were some very harsh words exchanged between him and rubens. Probably the only reason they did not collide was that Barrichello never actually got too close to fight with jenson on track.

And finally, if jenson has forgotten canada 2011, I do remember it quite well. Still no apology given to lewis there, or to alonso. Not a very gentlemenship-like win but JB still happily took. It is called demagogy I think in English. So JB does not stand too nice with his statement. He could say, "this is my own view" rather then generalize the situation and qualify rosberg as an unworthy champion (which sound ridiculous indeed). But even that would not change the fact that JB has done such actions on track, benefited from them and happily accepted the comments about how great a win he scored.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2014 09:56AM by mitadumapaga.

mitadumapaga Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I like that you bring that up.
> In my view, this is
> the fundamental issue in the team: there always
> has to be someone who has made an error. They are
> a team. They win as one and should gracefully lose
> as one too. What I mean is that it would be much
> more professional to simply say: we will discuss
> it internally period. rather than start pointing
> the finger at drivers/ staff/ raceengineers etc.

Thank you. I can add to that, at Spa, Toto Wolff adamantly refrained from pointing fingers right after the race, despite the interviewer pressing the issue and begging the question. The interview with him went down like this:

[www.youtube.com]

It was only after Lewis leaked the content of the intra-team meeting, that he spoke openly. It took him 30 minutes to confirm that the phrasing that Lewis had used was accurate, but that the understanding of it was incorrect. So, he was not in a frenzy tarnishing Rosberg's reputation. I think Lewis has the right to speak openly about it. Keeping everything within the team will always favour the driver who has done a misdeed. But he did do a pretty clumsy job of that statement. But then again, Lewis doesn't understand PR very well, and probably never will. It would be a shrewd move to get a "Sabine Kehm type", because he does get himself in far too many sticky situations when talking to the press.


> I would like to make a point about ferrari here,
> if it is allright.

No problem.

> I am studyin business
> administration and strategy in particular. Good
> Business strategy, which is what ferrari
> desperately need right now, starts by identifying
> what is the critical problem. And defining the
> problem as underperformance is a fundemental
> error, which inevitably leads to bad strategy. To
> me personally, Ferrari seem to do exactly that - I
> base my opinion on the facts that the team has
> been cutting off staff like crazy - from Chris
> Dyer through Domenicalli to Luca Marmorini. Let us
> not forget that when Ferrari were as dominant as a
> team in f1 could ever be -i.e. in 2004,
> Domenicalli was in the team - on the pit wall as a
> matter of fact. So he CAN be a useful resource to
> the team. Probably same goes to Luca Marmorini,
> CHris Dyer and anyone laid off. And what
> replacement people did they bring in place of the
> guys who got layed off?
> I would be interested what your view on the
> situation is.


I am not strong on who they brought in, but I can say that Ron Dennis removed Whitmarsh and discontinued his vacant job function with the comment, "that in modern F1 then you are away for the first four months. I challenge anybody to run a successful business without showing up at the company for four months." Perhaps he has a point, that modern F1 has evolved to such a complexity, that it can no longer be run with one man as Team boss. And that might be why we see Mercedes investing in several team managers. They need to talk together though, before they talk to the press, and as Hungary showed, they don't. That's probably the downside of that strategy. As for Domenicalli and others playing a future role? IMHO there are two options that can explain current events. Either they have found the organisation so unsatisfactory, that they felt a clean break was needed, OR that you are witnessing a hostile takeover of power. In that case, they are doing as so often is done, and is recommended in Machiavelli's The Prince, you exterminate the dethroned faction. Something surely went wrong, as they struggled for far to long with windtunnel problems under Domenicalli, and as far as I know, they deliberately snuffed the turbo on the F14T (I still can't get over that it spells FIAT in leetspeak!), figuring they could compensate with better aero on the bodywork, due to less space required by the engine. That certainly backfired tremendously! But I have not seen proper analysis and comments from Marco Mattiacci, so I don't know. But in my time on the job market, I have seen much more of the latter, than I have of the former. New bosses usually mean a string of lay-offs, and the introduction of people the new management are already sympathetic to. But there was a feature about just that concerning Williams in Autosport not long ago. It is very candid and in depth, so I think you'll find it fascinating how they have implemented their restructuring of the company. It certainly worked as they have leaped from borderline backmarker to respectable challenger. If you don't have Autosport access, then throw me a PM.

The inside story of Williams's revival

> I must admit fault on my side. I guess that this
> little part of my post was not well thought over.

Fair enough.

> > And speaking of classy and sporting
> gentlemanship,
> > Jenson Button has thoroughly slammed Rosberg's
> Spa
> > antics, and doesn't think that Rosberg would be
> a
> > deserving champion:
>
> We had Hakkinen, Hill and many others who had the
> spirit to be gentlemanship-like champions. We also
> had Schumacher, Senna, Prost and others, who
> crashed into teammates or rivals, introduced
> in-team policies and hit people with 250km/h off
> track. Still, I cannot say that Hill is more
> worthy champion than Schumacher, or that Hakkinen
> is more worthy champion than Prost. Thus, I cannot
> accept Jenson's opinion. I still believe that if
> all drivers raced like he does, f1 would be
> significantly more boring, if indeed a lot more
> gentlemanship fuelled. Finally, Jenson only fought
> for a title once in his life in F1, and I guess it
> has been too far so he has forgotten the tension
> involved. There were some very harsh words
> exchanged between him and rubens. Probably the
> only reason they did not collide was that
> Barrichello never actually got too close to fight
> with jenson on track.
>
> And finally, if jenson has forgotten canada 2011,
> I do remember it quite well. Still no apology
> given to lewis there, or to alonso. Not a very
> gentlemenship-like win but JB still happily took.
> It is called demagogy I think in English. So JB
> does not stand too nice with his statement. He
> could say, "this is my own view" rather then
> generalize the situation and qualify rosberg as an
> unworthy champion (which sound ridiculous indeed).
> But even that would not change the fact that JB
> has done such actions on track, benefited from
> them and happily accepted the comments about how
> great a win he scored.

I also remember that he had to take quite a few harsh mindgames from Villeneuve at BAR. As far as I remember, he didn't take time out of his book to retaliate. I don't even remember that he has ever felt the need for retaliation, but I might be wrong. In any case, I don't believe that any F1 driver is an angel. They are there to win the championship, and if they were not, they would be out... FAST! So they are going to take care of No.1 always. Some do it more graciously than others. But I do agree that a grid of Button's would not generate the kind of excitement we want. That is what I like about Hamilton. He loves to race with a passion and he always brings the action. Some times to much, but you cannot have it all. There is not going to be a perfect package. As I said in the Malaysia GP 2013 thread:

Quote
Morbid
I think it is fair enough if you want to see great sportsmen as also being great people that you can look up to. I can sympathize with that, and I would like to see it too. Unfortunately, they are rare. Most great sportsmen are just great at the sport they are specialized in, and they became that because they sacrificed everything else to get it.

---

It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2014 11:17AM by Morbid.

Morbid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> marcl Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Everyone thinks nico is so clean due to how
> nice
> > he is.
> >
> > Webber could not stand him if you remember
> back,
> > how many times did he make contact with ms when
> > they were team mates? A lot.
>
> Funny you should say that... Rosberg actually did
> the exact same move in 2010 against MS. Overtake
> on the outside, then have the inside for the
> following part of the chicane, but the pass was
> not completed and it was impossible to complete
> it. He had the same option of taking to the tarmac
> run-off and abort them move, but what happened? He
> punted MS into a spin! That makes it three very
> similar incidents in five seasons (I don't know if
> there are more), with the exact same judgement
> error on the part of Rosberg... that looks like a
> pattern to me!
>
> [www.youtube.com]
>
> Direct link:
> [www.youtube.com]

He does not seem to know when to give up on a move tbh and just thinks others will jump out his way.

During this race Alonso and others tried to go round the outside at that corner but all backed off when they could see the move was not. The only driver to try and stick with it was Nico, and sorry but turning the wheel left then right just reminds me of jerez 1997. I know some are saying you cannot see the front wing, but you can see the front wheel and it was clear the wing was going to hit.

I think there will be team orders now and they will be no racing like what they had at Ferrari. It will all be down to the start and pit stops.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2014 11:52AM by marcl.

I think the only thing Toto Wolff can do now, is to bench Rosberg for Monza. Anyhting else will make it clear, that he is just as powerless over his drivers as Horner is at Red Bull. But I don't think it is going to happen. They want the WDC and WCC, so taking another point loss like that is very unlikely. Even though Rosberg has come out 5 times ahead in qualifying out of 12, enforcing team orders will play to Rosbergs advantage as it is now IMHO, given the points lead and current string of bad luck Lewis has with his material for qualifying. However, I think it is going to happen. Corporate Mercedes will not stand long for these kind of situations. Perhaps this the last time we will see a championship leading team run a free to race policy.

Pondering some more, I wonder if Rosberg is carrying a longer held grudge against the team and Lewis. They did use team orders last year, and Nico grudgingly complied at Malaysia with the words "Remember this one". Perhaps he feels they didn't?

---

It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

They wont do that due to business partners.

What they could do is say to him you need to let Lewis win the next 3 races to make up the points you took, but they its all fake and its bound to come out in the press.

Best thing now is everyone just puts it behind them and gets on with racing.

The last thing they want to happen is Mclaren in 2006 when they blew it by letting drivers race, Dan R is really now that far away now and there are some tracks coming up that will suit them.

The other thing is Lewis will need to take and engine penalty this year as he does not have enough parts left, nico does, so they need to take that into account as well.

Its not all over for Lewis there are tracks left that he always goes well at even in an average car. I still think he can turn this around but one more no score to a nico win then I feel its game over.

As for the payback, lewis done that at Silverstone in quali when he moved out the way not to hold up Nico who went on to get pole.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2014 01:29PM by marcl.

mitadumapaga Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We had Hakkinen, Hill and many others who had the
> spirit to be gentlemanship-like champions. We also
> had Schumacher, Senna, Prost and others, who
> crashed into teammates or rivals, introduced
> in-team policies and hit people with 250km/h off
> track. Still, I cannot say that Hill is more
> worthy champion than Schumacher, or that Hakkinen
> is more worthy champion than Prost. Thus, I cannot
> accept Jenson's opinion. I still believe that if
> all drivers raced like he does, f1 would be
> significantly more boring, if indeed a lot more
> gentlemanship fuelled. Finally, Jenson only fought
> for a title once in his life in F1, and I guess it
> has been too far so he has forgotten the tension
> involved. There were some very harsh words
> exchanged between him and rubens. Probably the
> only reason they did not collide was that
> Barrichello never actually got too close to fight
> with jenson on track.

Hakkinen, certainly kept his mouth shut most of the time and avoided pretty much any controversy. He and also had remarkably few on track clashes, although there were a couple in the mid 90s.

Hill, is often touted by the British press as the "nice guy" champion, but in reality he also played the game. He gave as good as he got in his clashes with Schumacher, and also kept the needle going into his Arrows/Jordan days when the fight was effectively over. He also had no qualms about organising his teams around him. In 1994, he demanded to switch race engineers to work with David Brown who at the time was kind of the Adrian Newey of race engineers, he upset quite a few of the engineers with that move, he also made no secret of gaining the team-orders in his favour, Coulthard gave up some strong results to aid Hill in his fight with Schumacher during both 94 and 95, and remember he wasted no time in calling for team orders when Ralf was bearing down on him at Spa 1998.

I've always liked Hill, but he was not "holier than thou" when it came to a level playing field, or a tense rivalry with another driver.

marcl schrieb:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Dan R is really now that far away now and there
> are some tracks coming up that will suit them.
>
> The other thing is Lewis will need to take and
> engine penalty this year as he does not have
> enough parts left, nico does, so they need to take
> that into account as well.
>


as much as I would like that we have a third driver involved in the title race, i must admit, that the RBRs are miles off the Mercs. IN how many, 9 laps or so, Rosberg negated a full pitstop to Daniel Ricciardo, in spite having to pass 2 slower cars - VB and SV.

Furthermore, the fact that daniel is that close is due to his 3 wins this season. However, neither of those wins was on pure pace basis Montreal, Hungary and Spa - the mercs were gone in the distance and only luck helped Daniel win those.

Finally, I do not get what is all the fuzz around lewis being unlucky? True, melbourne was awful, but same happened to rosberg in England. Hockenheim was bad. But apart from that, hamilton had problems only in Hungary and let us be honsest - his problems were negated by what happened in the race with the safety car. All of the top three - NR, VB and Sebastian vettel suffered immensely as a result of the SC. And they didnt even had a teammate to destroy their run.

So, based on everything that happened throughout the season hamilton's bad luck comes down to what? Hockenheim only? I think everything else is negated by what happened to the other driver. And I will assume that in Canada both drivers had the same problem but nico managed it better (although i do not have the raw facts for that, apart from the TV footage).

What I meant was if Lewis and Nico keep on messing up races than Dan could get in there.

Yes Nico closed in on new tyres, but could he pass Vettel in the race? nope. Nico should have won in Spa but blew it by locking up trying to pass vettel.

Lewis bad luck was at Australia, Canada (the only reason Nico kept going was learning from Lewis not), Germany, Hungry, Spa.

Lewis had been fastest all weekend in Hungry and you cannot say the safty car put it back to zero as that is not the case at all. Lewis could have been miles ahead and passed the STR unlike Nico who could not. The race could have been totally different.

We are only talking a few points in Germany and Hungry but he still could have scored better in these races.

He has also made a few errors, Austria the biggest tbh where he cost himself pole and probably the win.

He has also had peoblems in practice sessions, Nico has not.

It always amazes me about the level of knowledge on this thread ... you just don't need to believe tabloids before cross-referencing first, with what you guys come up with. Morbid has made some valid points and also Jim. For me I think that Hamilton started this mind game B.S and Rosberg destroyed him. However it seems that Rosberg has got himself in a Zone ( whether intentional or other wise ) that may damage his credibility.
I don't know how Mercedes will tackle this as a team but I just hope that Rosberg, who I think is the strongest mentally, will just go out there and prove himself with his driving. I hope that there are no more DNf's for either driver. I believe that Hamilton is marginally quicker as a driver but not a complete racer. I believe it is he, 'Hamilton' that is his worse adversary on a level playing field. It is because of this flaw that up to date he has only 1 W.D.C.
If Hamilton wins fair and square he will undoubtedly deserve it. If Rosberg takes it fairly, from Monza onwards, it will be mega to watch but I fear Hamilton fans will reflect on his earlier bad luck and say Rosberg was fortunate.

Upon reflection Schumachers bad luck at Mercedes only caused people to cry 'Retire!'


" Perfection is not a gift ....... it comes with practice."

Member of R.S.C.T Group



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2014 03:41PM by Isaint.

Isaint Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It always amazes me about the level of knowledge
> on this thread ...

It doesn't really surprise me anymore. The few of us who still post to this forum are seasoned observers with many years of following this sport behind us. And we're capable of seeing through the tabloid and 'fan boy' bullshit.

This remains the one place that I can find a sensible discussion about F1, everywhere else succumbs to tabloid/indignantly outraged Facebook member style of debating.