2012 Italian Grand Prix ***SPOILERS***

[www.autosport.com]

Effectively translate to;

Alonso's drive in a Ferrari was AWESOME from 10th on the grid.... But wait.

Perez in a CUSTOMER Ferrari with a team who has never won a GP went from p13th to 2nd whilst not only making the 2 x WDC's drive look average, he prevented a double Ferrari podium.

At least thats how I read it.

Saying Perez is too inexperienced is complete... Well I cant think of the word. All I know is that I could run the team better than Luca.

Look at Kimi, no experience and was epic at Mclaren.

Lewis. ZERO seasons experience in F1, 1 point away from WDC.

Perez inexperienced? The guy almost made Alonso look ordinary in Malaysia too! Shut up Luca you are as much a blithering idiot as Bernie is. Leave F1 please.

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

Regarding Perez, I do wonder how much of it is his ability and how much is down to the Sauber possibly being one of the best cars out there.

Say it's not Perez who's excellent at managing tyres, but the Sauber. We know Kobayashi is one of the more aggressive drivers, so he can't reap the same rewards that Perez, with his calmer style can.

He's clearly a very good driver, but I don't think he's any better than a Button (in the right circumstances, capable of being a team leader while never really dominating a team-mate). I just think that Sauber have produced one of the best cars, and he's using it. Perhaps Ferrari feel that too, so aren't jumping through hoops to ensure he's sat next to Alonso next year... though I guess that if they were their thoughts then he'd be the perfect partner for Alonso - what Button was to Hamilton, before that relationship went downhill recently.

I don't know - something isn't right. Either Perez is a world-beater and Ferrari are scared of him threatening Alonso, or Sauber have one of the best cars we've seen in the past couple of years and it's making Perez look better than he is. If it's somewhere in the middle, then why are Ferrari baulking at snapping him up? Nurturing Massa's confidence in a desperate bid to challenge for the Constructors' Championship? That's going to take one heck of a turn-around on his part. He couldn't even finish on the podium in a race he should have finished second (after Button retired) and was still slower than his team-mate with damaged car.

Put it this way. If Alonso was in that Sauber this year, I still think he'd comfortably be leading the Drivers' championship.

Perhaps Hamilton is negotiating with the team on the wrong side of Lake Constance.....

I think Ferrari are just being cautious. There is a lot of pressure as a Ferrari driver and even more when Alonso is your team mate. There is nowhere near as much pressure at Sauber and that I think that is why Ferrari want to hold off. If Checo went to Ferrari next year and wasn´t getting top 6 finishes straight away, then it´s not doing anybody any good. Massa is capable of regular top 6 places and causes zero disturbance to the team keeping him. Checo is comfy at Sauber and having him there for another year is in the best interest of everybody.

Ferrari are in a bit of tight spot, because as disappointing as Massa is, there isn´t anybody who could replace him realistically. Di Resta is too young, Hamilton wouldn´t fit in at Ferrari, Kimi burnt a few bridges there (although that could possibly be work out), Bianchi is too young, Kubica is not fit enough and everyone else is either under contract for next year or isn´t good enough. The only driver I think could work is Kovalinen, but it didn´t exactly work out too good at Mclaren and is unlikely to do any better than Massa is. IMHO Ferrari are better off with Massa for next year, Then Perez for 2014. Providing Massa´s form doesn´t dip from what it is now, if it does and he is struggling to get in to the top 8, then go with Perez for next year, because there is nothing to loose.

Lewis has ruined all expectations for driving for a top team.

If he can compete with Alonso in his first year, then Perez who arguably has a hell of a lot of talent can compete after 2 years experience. Maybe not as close as Lewis did but surely be strong.

Fact is, any rookie who wants to consider themselves a future champ have two drivers to look at. Lewis and Vettel. From the go, both were simply amazing, and so far IMO Perez has shown a similar ability.

Stick him in the Ferrari and be done with it.

Gav, yeah that Sauber is awesome but Alonso leading? No way. I might say he would have won a GP or two but thats it.

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

Seen a lot of these quick young drivers (of the present generation) out of the box within the last few years, of which Lewis was the first. I said then that Lewis was not going to be this 'Senneresque' F1 God that most were forcasting and what do you know? Four years on there's just the one W.D.C.
Whilst Alonso has not enjoyed the fastest of cars these last few seasons and his transitional period has been a lot more fraught, it seams possible that it is he that will equal Sennas record long before Lewis gets anywhere near it.
I think Ferrari are wise, Alonso is one of the few complete racers out there ...... just for the record there will be no Lewis Fernando parnership at Maranello.... no, that wont happen but I think that Massa will keep his seat providing he maintains his present form.
As for Checo, it is far too early. How many times have we heard the word 'Quick' within the last few years? It takes much more than being quick ............ As alonso has proved time and time again.

And yes .......... how good is that Sauber?


" Perfection is not a gift ....... it comes with practice."

Member of R.S.C.T Group



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2012 11:25PM by Isaint.

Isaint Wrote:
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> Seen a lot of these quick young drivers (of the
> present generation) out of the box within the last
> few years, of which Lewis was the first. I said
> then that Lewis was not going to be this
> 'Senneresque' F1 God that most were forcasting and
> what do you know? Four years on there's just the
> one W.D.C.

He's just another Jacques Villeneuve. Oh, the amount of times I've said that...

He'll probably join Merc before falling down the grid, then later on supplement his earnings with a failed music career before joining NASCAR or something at the insistence of Nicole who wants to live with him in the US.

Is that a little cynical?

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GPGSL: S6 - TafuroGP Tester (14th) /// S7 - ART Tester (6th) /// S8 - Demon Driver (13th) /// S9 - Demon/Snake Driver (13th) /// S10 - Snake Driver (???) ///]
"My ambition is handicapped by laziness" - Charles Bukowski

I think Hamilton will stay at McLaren. If it's about winning like he says it is then staying there is a no brainer. What other team except Ferrari can be relied upon to have a race winning car every single year?

And he's not going to go to Ferrari as Alonso has moulded the Scuderia around himself to good reason and effect, they're quite happy to retain Massa.

Hamilton's problem at the moment is more of an attitude one, he's still a bit immature, but in his defense that's hardly surprising most people go through that stage. Button did, only his was less visible because he wasn't in a top team and winning races.

As brilliant the likes of Hamilton, Vettel etc are.. I sometimes wonder if they starting winning F1 too soon.. Let the success go to their heads a bit and then found losing all the more hard, because Vettel's been a petulant little cocky so and so at times this year as well.. mostly when things haven't gone his way.

It's been the more experienced hands like Button and Alonso who'll have a shocker yet come back laughing about it.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2012 11:48AM by J i m.

I think Lewis will probably win more than one title, but he'll need to be in more or less the best car and have plenty of luck go his way. He won't be one of the greats, but he could be in the class just below the greats(Like Hakkinen or Piquet).
He should definitely stay McLaren though - moving to Merc would be, as implied already, the equivalent of Villeneuve moving to BAR.

With Vettel I think his claim to greatness is more legit - he did get into a winning car early in his career, but unlike Lewis we've seen him do epic things in a car which wasn't a frontrunner(Fuji and Shanghai 2007) and win in a car which shouldn't have won in demanding weather conditions(Monza 2008).

RE Perez - I think he needs at least one more season in a team where he won't be expected to be winning, while he grows and matures as a driver. He's very promising, but he needs to be nurtured in a relatively relaxed environment for a while longer in order to reach his full potential IMO.

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Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/15/2012 02:41AM by EC83.

One stat I've only just seen, which rather took me aback.

Of the races where both Mercedes have finished (seven), Schumacher has finished ahead of Rosberg in all-but-one - it's 6:1 in Schumacher's favour.

Further testament that the old dog has still got plenty in him. I'd kill to see what he could do in a car capable of challenging for the title.

Plus I think he's fully up to speed now and over the rustiness he showed when he first came back. He hasn't been beating Nico much in quali, but quali never has been Michael's strong point - he never got his first Pole Position till Monaco 94 after all.
I think if he retired again now it'd be a wrong decision. Having done all the work to get himself back in touch with F1 and competitive again, he might as well stick around for another season or two at least and hope he gets himself a frontrunning car. Definitely, going by his demeanor in his recent interviews at Spa and Monza, he doesn't look like a driver who wants to retire.

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Interesting stat Gav.
I really hope that Michael stays in the sport and I agree, what is the point in leaving now? He has acomplished so much it would be an absolute waste, I do believe in my heart that given the right equipment this driver can re-write history for himself and F1.


" Perfection is not a gift ....... it comes with practice."

Member of R.S.C.T Group

I totally agree! Except for China, I think Michael's been out-performing Nico all season. Not only does this boost Schumi's credentials, but it also puts into question what Rosberg can actually do...

I also agree in saying that it would do no harm for Perez to stay at Sauber for a third season. I have read rumours that Charles Pic could be replacing Kobayashi - If Perez has some experience of leading a team next year it would do him a world of good IMO. Also good for Charles - he's impressed me this season and it would be sad for him to continue the trend of being dropped from Virgin/Marussia at the end of the rookie season and disappearing into obscurity (Di Grassi, D'Ambrosio...)

The next point I have to make is this: Kobayashi - I think he's good! He has now got a fair amount of experience in cars good and average (and also fairly bad if you include Sauber's form in early 2010...). As mentioned before, it seems that this year's car suits Perez more, but who qualified second at Spa? Not Perez! He was also going well in Valencia till he clashed with Senna and he had a great race at Hockenheim. In addition, his overtaking is sublime, I think we all know that! My final arguments are that...
a) He came into Toyota at the end of 2009 and completley whooped Trulli's ass, and also gave JB a damn hard (but fair) time in Brazil.
b) In 2010 he was taking that Sauber to places where it really shouldn't have been (anyone remember Silverstone that year? )

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GPGSL -
GPGSL-3 - Pizza Party Racing manager and driver
Nations Cup - Team Scotland manager

smoglessbutton4 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I totally agree! Except for China, I think
> Michael's been out-performing Nico all season. Not
> only does this boost Schumi's credentials, but it
> also puts into question what Rosberg can actually
> do...
>
> I also agree in saying that it would do no harm
> for Perez to stay at Sauber for a third season. I
> have read rumours that Charles Pic could be
> replacing Kobayashi - If Perez has some experience
> of leading a team next year it would do him a
> world of good IMO. Also good for Charles - he's
> impressed me this season and it would be sad for
> him to continue the trend of being dropped from
> Virgin/Marussia at the end of the rookie season
> and disappearing into obscurity (Di Grassi,
> D'Ambrosio...)
>
> The next point I have to make is this: Kobayashi -
> I think he's good! He has now got a fair amount of
> experience in cars good and average (and also
> fairly bad if you include Sauber's form in early
> 2010...). As mentioned before, it seems that this
> year's car suits Perez more, but who qualified
> second at Spa? Not Perez! He was also going well
> in Valencia till he clashed with Senna and he had
> a great race at Hockenheim. In addition, his
> overtaking is sublime, I think we all know that!
> My final arguments are that...
> a) He came into Toyota at the end of 2009 and
> completley whooped Trulli's ass, and also gave JB
> a damn hard (but fair) time in Brazil.
> b) In 2010 he was taking that Sauber to places
> where it really shouldn't have been (anyone
> remember Silverstone that year? )

KK prefers a more aggressive strategy. Remember Valencia 2010, where he started on hards then went for softs late on in the race and just diced past people. That's what he likes to do. At Monza, people were criticising him for being far behind Perez but he wasn't really on the right strategy to begin with.

I've since heard that McLaren are planning to bring Perez in if Hamilton goes to Mercedes. This would most likely leave Kobayashi at Sauber, with either Pic or Gutierrez coming in. Pic's got plenty of Lagardere backing, and Gutierrez has Telmex backing, so the second seat could still be sponsorship driven.

Of course, this is entirely dependent on Hamilton actually going to Mercedes but should this chain of events occur and Pic leaves Marussia, then Max Chilton or Rio Haryanto might come in to partner Glock as both are quite well backed in sponsorship terms.

Just spectulatin'...

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GPGSL: S6 - TafuroGP Tester (14th) /// S7 - ART Tester (6th) /// S8 - Demon Driver (13th) /// S9 - Demon/Snake Driver (13th) /// S10 - Snake Driver (???) ///]
"My ambition is handicapped by laziness" - Charles Bukowski

The thing is with Perez had he started in the top 10 in Monza he would not have been on the harder tyres to start the race with so he probably would have been where his team mate was.

We have seen a number of times this year its actually better to start out side the top 10 and as long as you can make the tyres work you can get a top 3.

I dont just look at stats I try and look at the whole picture of the year. This year for example Mclaren have cost lewis 40 points, and yes thats on top of what hes lost himself. He would be leading the championship right now.

As for MS and Nico, Nico has had a bad year I dont even think hes driving well. But every year its the same with him starts off well and fades. But Merc even said after Canada they need to focus more on MS as he kept having problems, so has that caused the knock on affect with Nico? I think Nico is like JB, when the car is perfect he can get it to the front, but he cannot drive round car problems.

At Monza he was closing in on MS and was the faster of the 2.

The fact that Mclaren are now looking for drivers for 2013 sends out the message Lewis is going. I will be shocked if he goes but not at the same time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2012 01:02PM by marcl.

gav Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One stat I've only just seen, which rather took me
> aback.
>
> Of the races where both Mercedes have finished
> (seven), Schumacher has finished ahead of Rosberg
> in all-but-one - it's 6:1 in Schumacher's favour.
>
> Further testament that the old dog has still got
> plenty in him. I'd kill to see what he could do in
> a car capable of challenging for the title.


Like you, and Dan I am a pretty big Nico fan but over the last two years he has certainly gone down in my estimations as a top driver who can challenge for the title.

Let's face it, a 42 year old Schumacher, no matter how good he is should not be showing up Nico the way he is. It took time but Schumacher now for me is top dog at Mercedes. He might lack in qualifying sometimes but it is racecraft and head that make him look so much better than Nico.

I would be very very open to the idea of a Lewis-Schumacher swap. Or failing that, a Lewis-Schumacher pairing.

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

Lewis and MS as teammates would be an epic prospect - although I'm pretty sure MS would destroy Lewis psychologically in that situation.
Also if MS somehow ended up going to McLaren(which would be another interesting career move for him in itself, given history) he might finally get the top car most of us would like to see him in.

Speculation like this just makes me hope even more that he'll not retire.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2012 03:51PM by EC83.

EC83 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lewis and MS as teammates would be an epic
> prospect - although I'm pretty sure MS would
> destroy Lewis psychologically in that situation.
> Also if MS somehow ended up going to McLaren(which
> would be another interesting career move for him
> in itself, given history) he might finally get the
> top car most of us would like to see him in.
>
> Speculation like this just makes me hope even more
> that he'll not retire.


EC83 ...... Why are you saying things like this? Now I can't sleep I can't even eat at the thought of these prospects. Lol
Wow! M.S. @ Mclaren, now wouldn't that be something ...... it would also be the only thing that would promt me to support that team ..............


" Perfection is not a gift ....... it comes with practice."

Member of R.S.C.T Group

:P

Speculation is always pretty exciting...

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