2011 Italian GP **SPOILERS** + Race Statistics

Well, fantastic race. For me best one of the season so far. so much going, complete entertainment for every one. I agree with most of the posts here. Button has really opened a few eyes about his status as a n02 driver in the team, very mature ride what else can you say. Hats off to vettel interesting about the comments from coulthard and Brundle, with comparisons draw between the past greats and vettel and his emergence as another superior talent in F1, billed to have his name along side those of the great Fangio, Senna & and Shumacher.
For me still a little too early for that but I would agree pound for pound best F1 driver out there. I always said, when every one was gyrating over Lewis that they were waching the wrong guy it was always vettel that was going to steal the show.

Nice points finish by Senna and good performance from the Toro rosso's. Alonso was his usual tenacious self, the guy is just always there. What a racer! As for Shumi .... geeez!! The guy just blew me away what a sensational drive. I may be wrong, I hope not but I dont think that the Mercedes car has improved that much. I think the performace was mainly due to the nature of the last two tracks and of course shumi. Remember they never seem to finish any higher unless there is a mistake from the front runners or adverse conditions so, all things being equal great drive from Michael but him and Nico need a better car.

Shame for Massa and webber both n02's having a difficult season. Bad start made by the HRT messed up the race for some drivers big time but like they say that's racing, still hurts though.

As for Lewis, I agree with elementel's post. Very wierd interview, very orchestrated. No doubt Lewis is a sad place at the moment. But I have to say most of it was of his own making. When you come in with the big swagger you need to back it up. Formula1 is not one race or one Champioship and as I've always said being quick is not enough. There is enough quick guys out there. It's more a combination of speed and enginuity, it's what all the greats like Senna , etc. had. Lewis has made some unforced errors this season and he's been singled out quiet a few times, I dont care what any one says and I'm not a fan of this guy. Also, I agree, with Jenson now getting the better of him, .... his own team mate! Well that's bound to be depressing.
I dont think he is particularly happy in the team right now as opposed to Jenson who seems to have slotted in quiet well. Lewis can still drive that Mclaren faster than it should go all he needs to do is re-focus, forget about all the hype and expectations that show has long left town.
Just be yourself Lewis and let your driving do the talking.


" Perfection is not a gift ....... it comes with practice."

Member of R.S.C.T Group

I love the fact that MS had a great drive by weaving all over the place, not just been said here but by many, yet when others do it then its dangerous

MS had a good race but was over the limit at times and did not set a good example. I can see why some drivers get angry as they would not get away with that. Alonso could have done the same to Button but hes not dirty, Lews could have done the same to MS when he passed him the 1st time.

dear marcl,

the examples you give are not exactly spot on, because:

1) button did it in canada, no penalty, no nothing

2) alonso did it with vettel into turn 3, by putting vettel on the grass which was quite dangerous, though people dont mention it- no penalty no nothing.

3) lewis did it.... like 100 times. Typical example was.. lets say malaysia 2010 with petrov, no penalty no nothing, or lets say monza 2008 on A VERY VERY WET TRACK when he put glock on the grass with approximately 250 km/h.

In my opinion the leading bodies of F1 made this great, gladiators sport.. a whuss sport. Schumacher did NOTHING dangerous out there. No one could have died or got hurt, Whitmarsh and hamilton in the team radio were whining for obvoius (subjektive) reasons. The truth is, people are whining for stupid things like "he moved twice" he pushed him hard. But of course he will, what did senna say. "when you are a racing driver and there is a gap, you go for it, otherweise you are no longer a racing driver". Fia is going to make this sport have NO racing drivers at all, compared to what we had 10, even more 20 years ago, and the climax of great battles in the 1970- ies. 1980- ies- If someone dies because he was pushed hard, so be it (listen to murrays speech after imola 1994). just stop putting the boring and whussy safety zones everywhere (lok at alonso vs massa at belgium 2 weekes ago, alonso should be gone for that running wide), stop removing great tracks from the f1 calendar because the races are either not safety enough or dont have enough money (what happened to imola, a1 ring, estoril, mexico, kyalami, old hockenheim etc, etc, etc)- and then again, of course no one is going to die just from pushing him hard. look at fitipaldi spinning on a start finish line, senna at mexico 1990 i think, mansell at suzuka 1987 and piquet at tamburello in 1987, kubica at canada 2007 or lets say perez at monaco this year. All those incidents were in times when either thesafety was at a low level compared to now (except perez of course).

^Yes I agree with you and this is what bugs me, one race they will get a drive through next race they wont they need to get it consistant or not bother at all.

Oh and in the Sepang race Lewis was given a warning and the following year a penalty.

The view on MS was split, in my view twice he was to hard. The rules state you cannot move twice MS did, dangerous or not he moved twice to block. Had Lewis front wheel hit the rear of MS he could have flipped the car so please do not say that was not dangerous.

I always thought Button should have been given a drive though in Canada for hitting Alonso, but at least they investigated it.

The rules are not the same as when Senna, Mansell Prost drove, if they were the same them 3 would be in the stewards every single race lol.

As I said views are split but MS was just as bad if not worse than Lewis in Sepang as Lewis had no car that close to him.

Some people think MS was OTT others see nothing wrong, the fact that they had a word with Brawn for me shows they looked at a possible drive through if it carried on. I enjoyed their fight anyway until it went a bit to far.

The vettel Alonso move, for me was more Vettel anyway he tried going round the outside of a turn and Alonso took his normal racing line. Yes Alonso could have give more room but he did not push him on the grass or make a sudden move.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2011 05:40PM by marcl.

There was nothing dangerous about Schumacher's drive, there is something wrong with that McLaren... This modern F1 turns slowly into a joke with all these rules an gadgets.... On the Monza incident all I have to say is this: Hamilton should have kept his distance to Vettel in the SC period and this would not have ever happened. Drivers make their own luck!

____

^Yes he did admit that, he was busy watching his mirrors wondering what MS was doing. He fell for the trick and it cost him, he should have kept watching out in front and ignored what was going on behind him.

mitadumapaga Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> dear marcl,
>
> the examples you give are not exactly spot on,
> because:
>
> 1) button did it in canada, no penalty, no
> nothing
>
> 2) alonso did it with vettel into turn 3, by
> putting vettel on the grass which was quite
> dangerous, though people dont mention it- no
> penalty no nothing.
>
> 3) lewis did it.... like 100 times. Typical
> example was.. lets say malaysia 2010 with petrov,
> no penalty no nothing, or lets say monza 2008 on A
> VERY VERY WET TRACK when he put glock on the grass
> with approximately 250 km/h.
>
> In my opinion the leading bodies of F1 made this
> great, gladiators sport.. a whuss sport.
> Schumacher did NOTHING dangerous out there. No one
> could have died or got hurt, Whitmarsh and
> hamilton in the team radio were whining for
> obvoius (subjektive) reasons. The truth is,
> people are whining for stupid things like "he
> moved twice" he pushed him hard. But of course he
> will, what did senna say. "when you are a racing
> driver and there is a gap, you go for it,
> otherweise you are no longer a racing driver". Fia
> is going to make this sport have NO racing drivers
> at all, compared to what we had 10, even more 20
> years ago, and the climax of great battles in the
> 1970- ies. 1980- ies- If someone dies because he
> was pushed hard, so be it (listen to murrays
> speech after imola 1994). just stop putting the
> boring and whussy safety zones everywhere (lok at
> alonso vs massa at belgium 2 weekes ago, alonso
> should be gone for that running wide), stop
> removing great tracks from the f1 calendar because
> the races are either not safety enough or dont
> have enough money (what happened to imola, a1
> ring, estoril, mexico, kyalami, old hockenheim
> etc, etc, etc)- and then again, of course no one
> is going to die just from pushing him hard. look
> at fitipaldi spinning on a start finish line,
> senna at mexico 1990 i think, mansell at suzuka
> 1987 and piquet at tamburello in 1987, kubica at
> canada 2007 or lets say perez at monaco this year.
> All those incidents were in times when either
> thesafety was at a low level compared to now
> (except perez of course).


I Totally agree with you ........ all of a sudden every one is so scared to let racers race, it's frustrating for the drivers, confuseing for the sport and damn right boring for the spectators.


" Perfection is not a gift ....... it comes with practice."

Member of R.S.C.T Group

I only saw one move by MS before the lesmos that could've cost him and Hamilton the race and that was very dangerous, other times i thought Lewis could've done a lot better job at positioning his car (+the hopeless move he tried in curva grande showed he's lost the mental edge imo). Button did a brillant job, I'm really starting to root for him, kept his calm. In my mind, when he was about to catch the pair in front of him, there was no doubt he was going to react in the right moment and pass both of them, excellent. So gutted for Rosberg, he really seems to have the worst luck of the top drivers (yes, i consider him that); he had an 'advantage' (kobayashi as well) with the tires and judging from MS's pace I just can't help but wonder what could've been . Vettel must really have the most driveable car ever or he'd fall asleep after the first pitstop of each race imo. Excluding the poor start (or an insane start by Alonso) a flawless drive by the champion.

Yes don't get me wrong nothing was a bad as Brundle and DC were saying but it was not 100% correct and most of the racing was fair thats for sure.

I am all for letting drivers race I love the sport for that, Button at the last race for example was out standing all clean moves against drivers that did not block and weave just how it should be.

Many slated Senna in Britain 1993 for the way he held Prost up, yes even Jackie Stewart and Lauda yet what MS done yesterday was no different. As I said its great racing but I think had Lewis not gone into the race with the attitude of just finish the race I think he would have taken a dive at some point and left it in MS hands weather of not they would crash.

i think Michael just frustrated a lot of people in Mclaren and around because they where "supposed" to win...

hard racing?, yes, but these guys have been spoiled because they all want it easy, Hamilton raced hard a couple of people in the past in this same circuit, and he's gotten away with penalty deserving moves a lot of times... for me, Michael only probably made a "really hard" move on Hamilton, wich could've recieve a warning for, but definitely not a penalty, had Lewis won the race and Alonso been the one fighting Michael i doubt so much drama would've been created...

Dunno tbh as remember the stick MS got when he pushed Rubens and in the past when he done the same to others in other races like Massa in Canada the other year.

Tbh Mclaren got the setup wrong anyway which caused the problem with straight line speed.

I think had Koby been damaged to spun at Spa Lewis would have got a penalty of grid drop. Webber I think would have got a drive through at Monza had he kept going.

As I said don't get me wrong I really enjoyed the battle with MS and Lewis I just hope next time a driver moves twice a few times they speak to him like they did with MS before giving a drive through.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2011 10:56PM by marcl.

Did anyone else laugh when they told Hamilton on the radio "Michael is very high"

==============================

tbh I thought Formula 1 was supposed to be a competition, not just a bunch of cars going around in unison. Like mitadumapaga said quoting senna: when you are a racing driver and there is a gap, you go for it, otherwise you are no longer a racing driver" Schumacher was acting defensively in order to defend his position. For sure he defended twice, yet coming towards the 1st lesmo he was on the right, therefore he had to move back to the left to go back to the racing line. I really miss the 1980-early 1990esque formula 1. Back then, Drivers had Balls,if they say the gap, they put all their effort in order to make it stick. Nowadays they just seem to constantly nag if one driver makes a mistake or does something the other doesn't like.What made Schumacher and Senna so great to watch was their sheer ruthlessness on track, passing one of them in a race was something special for the other driver. Nowadays we constantly hear ex drivers and current racers nag about driving on the edge. Surely every driver should be driving on the edge in order to fight for the championship.

it does say something, that everytime Schumacher gets overtaken, he drivers usually hail the maneuver as one of their best

Jensons did it now, Alonso did it in Suzuka, Algersuari said it last year, Rubens at Hungaroring, Mika in SPA... and that's the reward.. but no, they just want the slower car in front to move over!..

don't get me wrong i hope MIchael never pulls a HUngary move ever again, sometimes he crosses the line, but with Hamilton people where complaining for the wrong reasons

as usual (with a little bit of delay) here are the Post Race Statistics in the first post

____

Isaint Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I Totally agree with you ........ all of a sudden
> every one is so scared to let racers race, it's
> frustrating for the drivers, confuseing for the
> sport and damn right boring for the spectators.

Well it's a very fine line. If Vettel had lost control when passing Alonso and gone into the wall at 300 kph, I don't think anyone would've been making that argument.

I think both incidents were both on the edge of safe. I think that anything that makes a driver back off like Schumacher did to Hamilton isn't really necessary.

---

X (@ed24f1)

SchueyFan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Isaint Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I Totally agree with you ........ all of a
> sudden
> > every one is so scared to let racers race, it's
> > frustrating for the drivers, confuseing for the
> > sport and damn right boring for the spectators.
>
> Well it's a very fine line. If Vettel had lost
> control when passing Alonso and gone into the wall
> at 300 kph, I don't think anyone would've been
> making that argument.
>
> I think both incidents were both on the edge of
> safe. I think that anything that makes a driver
> back off like Schumacher did to Hamilton isn't
> really necessary.


I agree safety is important, I mean, nobody wants to see any driver hurt. It's just that I feel F1 is just going the way of football. Too many rules. Players spend more time looking for free kicks than actuallly kicking the ball, that's why I dont wach it any more. Every body is always 'Bitching' about this move and that move. It's racing for god sake. If every now an then, a driver does not take a chance how will we ever know who is really special? I dont think Schumacher did anything so drastic, otherwise he would have been penalised.
The fact is, Lewis is a racer he takes chances. Recently the powers that be, have asked him to back off. Now look at the product that we are left with a docile driver that has seemed to have lossed his edge, the Lewis of old would not have been behind Schumi that long that is for sure, something would have given and damn right because this is what these guys come here for ....... to race.
I dont know about other people but the minute that F1 becomes a processession that is governed by 'he did this' or 'he did that' I'm gone ................


" Perfection is not a gift ....... it comes with practice."

Member of R.S.C.T Group



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2011 01:39PM by Isaint.

I agree in the fact the F1 should be careful about becoming a bit too protective of the drivers. Certain stuff like obvious weaving and what michael did to rubens in hungary that can obviously be said were wrong, but personally i thought there was nothing much wrong with what MS did to Hamilton, and MB and DC were being a bit too over the top about the whole thing. MS moved to defend the inside line and then moved back to take the corner, you cant just tell a driver they can only make one move, and then after that they have to let the other driver cruise by, wheres the racing in that? As i said, weaving is wrong, but doing what MS said shouldnt be, as he defended and then took the racing line, he's not going to sacrifice momentum in a corner just because he's defended his position...

_________________________________________________

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I'm sorry... But if someone considers that driving another car off the track and on to the grass at speeds approaching or over 200 mph is not dangerous is quite simply an idiot. It would only take an interlocking of wheels and then game over, a car gets launched then any marshall or spectator within a few hundred metres of the incident is at risk. Regardless of any "motor racing is dangerous" disclaimer anyone who thinks that is acceptable in the name of "gladeratorial" entertainment is a moron.

Great race though. Vettle is unquestionably driver of the day, with both Button and Alonso also both excelling in their own ways, with Button once again recovering well from a position he should not have got himself into in the first place. His move on Schumacher at Ascari was particulary brave considering the Merc was using not only all of Monza but much of Imola to keep Hamilton behind.

Naughtiness from Schumacher, whilst it was certainly entertaining it was also marginally on or over the limit. Strong drive though.

Hamilton a bit subdued, but apart from napping at the restart he didn't really put a foot wrong. I wish people would get off his case a bit. He's checked his attitude since Monaco, yet he's besieged by idiots who insist on debating everything from his race craft to his personal life. It's almost as boring as the blinkered plonkers whom always insist that Vettel can't overtake. The fact of the matter is that Hamilton from day one has always been possible contender for the championship, only that for the past three seasons Mclaren haven't been able to quite deliver a car capable of winning the championship. He's a racer in every sense of the word and in his mind he ought to leading the championship, his problem is that there is a driver equal in stature who's simply got car that is a little bit better in almost every way and hence hamilton has to overachieve simply to keep up. That often worked last year when Vettel was making mistakes. But since Vettels mistakes have stopped Hamilton has had to try even harder which sometimes lead to mishaps. If Hamilton was in Webber's place then the championship would be a closely fought two horse race right now.

He's in between a rock and a hard place if he has a collision it's all his fault and he's a moron, if he's finishing the race in any place other than 1st then he hasn't tried hard enough and has been disinterested, what ever he does it seems he can't please anyone these days.





Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2011 01:52PM by J i m.

Like I said nobody wants to see these guys hurt there's a big difference between 'A weave' and hitting the grass at 200 mph. Yet still the most dangerous manoeuver is hailed as courages and fantastic to wach the other, every one wants to start looking in the rule book at. Look, for me there are so many gadgets on these cars now, KERS DRS etc. What the hell? Where is the driver in all this. We want to see who is the best out there not who has the most reliable add-ons.
You want to make the sport safer, start by getting rid of all this crap! Too much for the driver to think about, let him race for crying out loud. How many times have you heard these guys saying, 'Oh we have a problem with this,' Or 'We had a problem with that'. Just give them the car with the best that the engineers can do and let these guys perform. The whole sport is being emancipated in go-faster equipment and the 'Stewards enquirey'. Jeeeeeeez! Give us a break!


" Perfection is not a gift ....... it comes with practice."

Member of R.S.C.T Group



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2011 02:13PM by Isaint.