2011 Italian GP **SPOILERS** + Race Statistics

LeeBeau Wrote:
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> wut, so you think it was a brilliant idea for
> Hamilton to go ahead and try to get by there from
> the inside, you think that was a maneuver that was
> bound to work if it weren't for that meddling
> Schumacher?

Perhaps given Schumacher's greed in the braking zones Hamilton should have been more weary at Curve Grande, yet as has been pointed out he had a run on him. Schumacher can't reasonably claim to have not known he was there either since he'd been defending with increasing desperation for some laps. Given his straight line speed and the fact he would had the racing line into the chicane anyway there was no need for that chop and in case you hadn't noticed... Hamilton didn't in turn chop off Button behind him, yet he could have quite fairly and safely made it much harder for him, if Hamilton was capable of this good sense then why not Schumacher?

> Honestly if you see something 'illegal' or 'iffy'
> in that clip then not only will your dad be very
> disappointed with you but so will all your racing
> heroes. Mclaren really did an awful job with the
> setup, shame on them.

What a stupid comment.

andreigp4 Wrote:
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> I just noticed something... The drivers in the
> first 5 places were all champions. I guess that's
> a world premiere for F1.

That goes some way to show the overall quality of the top drivers in f1 at the moment, it's a brilliant era in that scope.

J i m Wrote:
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>
> What a stupid comment.

ok, pls write down the time marker in that video where you feel the need to moan (and please before you post that, try and put aside your obvious bias, and try to be impartial - for the sake of the argument); all i see in that video is a nearly perfectly executed defence.

and what is greed in the braking zones?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2011 12:59PM by LeeBeau.

J i m Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> LeeBeau Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > wut, so you think it was a brilliant idea for
> > Hamilton to go ahead and try to get by there
> from
> > the inside, you think that was a maneuver that
> was
> > bound to work if it weren't for that meddling
> > Schumacher?
>
> Perhaps given Schumacher's greed in the braking
> zones Hamilton should have been more weary at
> Curve Grande, yet as has been pointed out he had a
> run on him. Schumacher can't reasonably claim to
> have not known he was there either since he'd been
> defending with increasing desperation for some
> laps. Given his straight line speed and the fact
> he would had the racing line into the chicane
> anyway there was no need for that chop and in case
> you hadn't noticed... Hamilton didn't in turn chop
> off Button behind him, yet he could have quite
> fairly and safely made it much harder for him, if
> Hamilton was capable of this good sense then why
> not Schumacher?
>
> > Honestly if you see something 'illegal' or
> 'iffy'
> > in that clip then not only will your dad be
> very
> > disappointed with you but so will all your
> racing
> > heroes. Mclaren really did an awful job with
> the
> > setup, shame on them.
>
> What a stupid comment.

Hamilton could have chopped MS as well when he passed him the 1st time, or made it harder for him to pass. I would say he is fair when a car is trying to pass him once they have a run on him he very rarly fights it he makes it a bit to easy tbh and sort of expects the same which is I think why he has so many problems.

Mclaren got their setup wrong yes for overtaking a Merc but both drivers had the fastest laps lap after lap once in the clear and on the harder tyres. Button had no problem passing Alonso and given one more lap Lewis would have got past Alonso.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2011 01:24PM by marcl.

LeeBeau Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> J i m Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > What a stupid comment.
>
> ok, pls write down the time marker in that video
> where you feel the need to moan (and please before
> you post that, try and put aside your obvious
> bias, and try to be impartial - for the sake of
> the argument); all i see in that video is a nearly
> perfectly executed defence.
>

I am not going to waste my time picking out markers in the video to satisfy your own view on it. Save to say that race control themselves contacted the team to effectively tell Schumacher to behave himself, why would they have done that if Schumacher's tactics upnto that point had not been "iffy".

I would also add that I'm not biased, I'll criticise or praise any driver when I feel it's due regardless of who they are.

I was referring your comment as stupid for the reference to "your dad will be very disappointed with you" tell me, how long exactly have you known my dad? And what makes you my "Racing heroes" would know me, or you for that?

But please if you want to entertain us further with daft comments, carry on





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2011 03:58PM by J i m.

J i m Wrote:
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well, that post answers 0 questions but tries to offend me - yeah, i'm daft and you're not biased. btw entertainment is key

race control as far as i understood contacted the team for ms's move before the lesmos (which, i agree, was very dangerous and if he was to be punished for anything he did in the race then that would be it imo), what is seen in that video is clean (and i assume you agree since you fell short of a retort for that point, or maybe you 'didn't waste your time' watching it).

marcl, good point, i guess they didn't expect an inferior merc to jump them in the start. oh and that ferrari on hards really is like a snail with wings.

edit: i know i'm probably not going to get an answer from j i m but seriously could someone explain what 'greed in the braking zone' means, you see, english is not my first language and j i m comes across as a bit of a c..t for mocking my lack of knowledge in english but it's an honest question and i would really like to know, halp plx?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2011 03:23PM by LeeBeau.

The only thing that gets me angry about Mclaren is the starts, only once this year have they made good starts every single race they either hold their starting place or drop 1 or 2 places.

Oops I didn't realise I left that last bit of quote in that post. I apoligise on that front. Offence is not something I was aiming at, I shall remove that part.

However, to answer your question, greed in the braking zones is how I referred to the movement to protect position more than once, something that is frowned on in F1. Schumacher did that at least once at the lesmos, and also squeezed Hamilton needlessly on several ocassions at the chicanes and once even hundreds of metres before the first corner along the main straight. Having been told by race control to check his driving, Ross Brawn himself told Schumacher to leave room for Hamilton at Ascari (a place i'm sure you'd appreciate where you don't need to be forced off the road at 200mph or indeed at all), not once but at least twice, it may haven even been more only the FIA didn't reley anymore messages from Brawn to Schumacher after that.

In my view that is already enough evidence in this case to suggest Schumacher's defensive driving was iffy.

And that video did show Schumacher moving back across on Hamilton at Ascari in a much more aggressive way than Hamilton did to Kobayashi at Les Combes in Spa for instance, that incident resulted in a collision and crash, photographers present were lucky not to be hit by debris. Hamilton got criticised by many (myself included) for moving back onto the racing line. If you recall Hamilton later accepted 100% responsibility for that incident even though it was judged a racing incident by the stewards and no penally given to either party, it was at least investigated which shows there was reason to question it.

Finally, I have made no reference to your ability in English, you have made that assessment yourself. I neither saw nor pointed out any flaw in your English and am therefore certainly not mocking you on it. I would be careful not to make false allegations and labelling people as "c..t" on them in future

ok, i didn't realize there was meant to be text after that quote, sorry, that's why i thought you were mocking my english retardation. ty for the answer

as for that spa incident i think hamilton left it a little too late (in my view he was on the racing line already but obviously didn't realize kobayashi was there and he could've turned in sooner, although maybe that's how he aproached that corner each lap), it was a misunderstanding and a mistake, but seeing as how both hamilton and ms made it to the end without any damage there's no question they are both of insane skill and ability behind the wheel and displayed racing at it's finest. i'm not so sure about the pushing, hamilton went for it himself and kept it on the track in those instances, there was just about enough room. weaving is stupid yes, but i didn't see any weaving aside from that one instance. lauda's comment sums it up for me, it's fine to make your defensive move and a movement to get back on the racing line for the corner.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2011 04:33PM by LeeBeau.

Moving back onto the racing line is generally accepted it's true, and this is fine as long as the other car is still clearly behind. It's when the leading car moves back into that line when the car behind is partly alongside when problems arise.

The video showed that Schumacher was clearly ahead into the Lesmos where the movement to one side of the track and back again looked more extreme than it was and wasn't as risky as crowding out the car behind at Ascari or the other chicanes for instance, but since it was technically two moves to defend position it was at least pushing the sporting regulations to the limit if not quite beyond it.

I agree that it was a highly skilled and on the face of it very impressive bit of defensive driving, certainly very entertaining yet at points it was needlessly risky. At Monza speeds the result of interlocking wheels could be disastrous and I'm sorry but safety is a bigger key than entertainment.

People have understandably pointed at the Webber move on Alonso at Eau Rouge in Spa, I admit I winced to the degree that I almost jumped behind the sofa on that one, yet both drivers behaved impeccably in that instance and gave each other room without making a secondary move. The respect between the two at moment in time on the track was awesome to behold, I don't feel Schumacher treated Hamilton with the same due consideration at Monza.

I was going to imbed a couple of YouTube clips, but it seems I'm getting the wrong tags or part of link name. However Ricardo Patrese's accident at the 1992 Portuguese Grand Prix when he clipped a rear wheel on Berger's McLaren and took off nearly landing on the edge of the pit-wall is a good illustration of why Schumacher was taking it too far at times.

This is the thing.

With Senna you could race wheel to wheel, with Alonso you could race wheel to wheel, probably with Button and Lewis you could. You would know they would not push you into the pit wall.

With MS I would not even think twice about going wheel to wheel with him, I simply would not do it.

Which Senna are you talking about? Ayrton pulled off some of the most astonishingly and ruthlessly dangerous moves ever seen in F1 which is perhaps where Schumacher learnt it from in the first place.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2011 05:56PM by J i m.

^Yes good point but I was refering to things like Spain 1992, Senna mellowed later in life .

MS even tried putting his brother in the wall.

I mean if you were a driver would you even try and go along side MS like Mansell did with Senna?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2011 06:08PM by marcl.

nice discussion here, guys. However i want to make 2 points about that schumacher hamilton battle.

1) what really amazes me in schumachers defensive riving style is that he knows exactle when he needs to go defensive. A lot of drivers cant judjge that accurately (recall fisichella at suzuka 2005 with kimi)

2) when he goes defending (e.g. before a right corner) then he doesnt completely moves back, he just moves enough, so that the car behind cant brake too late and pass him on the outside. in other words, he positions his car in a way, that there is juuust NOT enough room for it (without completely positioning him in fron of the car behind)- he just puts his left rear tyre in fron of the right front of the car behind.

3) schumachre defends very smart- knowing when he can counter attack and in the case with hamilton he executed it perfectly- when passed with the counter attack. IF however, he was racing against kobayashi or petrov or some of the backrunners it would innevitabely ended in a collision. Thats why he had so many problems earlier in the season (turkey, valencia etc.)

MS also made a lot of mistake when defending though that let Lewis get the runs on him.

Tbh both of them lost a lot of time racing like that, sometimes its better just to give up the place. Lewis 100% lost out the most though he probably lost 2 positions in that race where as MS lost none as 5th was probably the best he was ever going to get.

But as people said he can only really blame himself due to the restart of the race when he was looking at MS and not at the cars ahead.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2011 06:28PM by marcl.

I didn't see anything at all in that video that Schumacher did wrong. He gave Hamilton space when Hamilton got alongside him, and what we saw as 'chops' on TV weren't nearly as bad in car. At no point did Hamilton have to take avoiding action - he only had to back off once when Schumacher covered the inside, and he did so with plenty of warning of intent.

Now, of course the main issue, the chop at Curve Grande, was earlier in the race, and it wasn't on, but if that driving was around the standard he used earlier, then for me that is the only bone of contention. It looked worse from outside the car than it did inside.

^That was just like the Spa thing in quail, one angel made it look like Lewis fault and the other angel the other guys.

I agree with what you have said Gav 100%.

marcl Wrote:
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> I mean if you were a driver would you even try and
> go along side MS like Mansell did with Senna?

Honestly? Then yes, no driver can go through their career being intimidated by another, especially if they're going quicker than that driver. They can't simply sit behind them in case they have a collision.

This is probably a poor comparison but I know from my own experience in rental karts that I'd much rather overtake a slower driver regardless of the deliberateness or competence of their driving to keep me behind. There's no point in sitting behind them because you're just as likely to involved in an incident with them if you do and there's only so much dropping back you can do before you've re-caught them. No, for me passing is the best option, even if you're forced onto the grass by a chop to get around them, even if they you use as their brake into the next corner, even if they collide with you trying to stay ahead. Show that you're not to be intimidated and use any fair opportunity to get past, that way they're out of your way.

I would admit though, I'd struggle to apply that argument to Hamilton's duel with Schumacher. Still, theres no need to shy away from racing Schumacher just because he might get a bit carried away. It never stopped Hakkinen, Coulthard, Hill or Villeneuve.

And all 3 of them were really un happy at times. Mika at Spa when he got the chop, DC well lets not go there as there was to many. As for JV need I say more lol.

I just would not feel safe going wheel to wheel down a straight with MS I just do not think he would keep the car straight.

It was more of a question tbh than what happened at the weekend, at no time was Lewis alongside.

If you can intimidate someone into not passing you, or being too cautious in attempting to overtake, that's a massive advantage to have. Same goes for overtaking. When people see Kobayashi come up behind them, they know he's going to throw it down the inside if there's any space whatsoever, so he gets away with it when other drivers probably wouldn't.