Who owns your PC? (Win7)

1) Vista is brilliant. People just got complacent using XP, forgetting that XP (and 2000 if you made the switch the NT with that) were even worse, as programmers couldn't write programs properly. It was the same with Vista - programs wouldn't run properly, or threw up UAC prompts for fun, as they weren't written correctly, saving data to the Program Files or Windows folders:\

7 is basically exactly the same OS as Vista, but with a few tweaks under the cover. How Vista managed to get such an appalling press and 7 such fantastic just shows the naivety of some. Of course there was the hardware 'issue' with Vista too, but then again, with a new OS you have to expect to move with the times - we'd all still be booting DOS from floppy disks otherwise.

2) XP is dated, but I wouldn't call it crash happy. It's quite stable on older hardware, but it is true that the newer your system, the more quirks come in. It certainly doesn't scale nearly as well as Vista/7.

3) The libraries in 7 are a fantastic idea. Not stunningly useful at home, but in a working environment they're epic. The ability to pool together different libraries for certain users at a certain time is something else. It's sort of a halfway house to what Microsoft were planning with WinFS back when Vista (then Longhorn) was in early development, and in many ways borrows ideas from OS X and Linux without making it alien to Windows users.

Just FYI, Windows 7 allows you to select Vista/XP/98 style task bar and start menus.

I tried Ubuntu and it felt like I was being taken back in time and raped at the same time.

Edit: and the Libraries rock. I love them.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2010 01:08PM by DaveEllis.

Vista is crap. It was an unfinished OS pure and simple. It was released to generate cash-flow, not because it was ready. Windows 7 is what Vista should have been, if the job had been done properly.

Windows 7 might be good, but it is far from needed for the vast majority of people that use computers. The pressure to constantly release new hardware and hence a new OS, is driven by the hunt for profit. And the industry, on every level right down to the hardware shop on the street, is in collusion with Microsoft in this endeavor, because they profit from it every day. They depend on it to keep the cash rolling in.

It is only the minority of businesses that could not go on perfectly well with XP. Even within most companies with specialized needs, the majority of their workstations would work perfectly well with XP. Most home users would probably still be able to function just fine with Win98. And then there are the gamers, who will never get enough omph, and crayola-driven graphics.

So these people, gamers and people/businesses with specialized needs, are those that push the development, and mostly are those that pay the vast gearing and release costs. The average consumer pays the rest and the profits. Ask anyone in the business. If people just bought what the needed, and used it until it broke, 9 out of 10 of the current business in the computer industry would go broke within 6 months.

It is the exact same business model the fashion industry is using. People don't need to buy new clothes all the time, but the industry purposely pushes new product every year, that makes last years model look old and dated. Being on the cutting edge of the industry, using and displaying their product, gives a sense of superior identity. And those that don't are of course inferior.

I don't need the lecture on floppy disks and Dos Gav. I used it the early/mid 80'ies so I know exactly what it is, and how it worked, and the limitations attached to it (even then documentation of an OS was crap, but at least you got to printed manuals)! I ran hotline and home visit support for my friends and friends of friends for over a decade. I do know about computers.

But the unreflected lauding of technology as the end-all and be-all of everything, combined with the indiscriminate bashing of people that don't agree, frankly makes your breath smell of Microsoft cock (just like Zcotts ass smells of Apple)... It is a computer! It is a tool... just like a hammer! Nothing less, nothing more. Relax dude, and realize that there is more, and life revolves about something else.

The quill served humanity for over a thousand years. NASA put people on the moon with less computing power than there is in my telephone (which is also dated, and not an iPhone, and therefore I am super uncool!), yet we can't stay on an OS and improve it for more than a 2-3 years? Give me a break!

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2010 01:52PM by Morbid.

Not directed at Morbid specifically, but I just remembered this

[en.wikipedia.org]

Sums up the Vista situation for me.

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It is the old Pepsi-challenge, re-tooled.

Quote

"The official goal of the Mojave Experiment is to get consumers to decide for themselves rather than accept the commonly held negative perceptions of Windows Vista"

They had to decide for themselves, so people on Microsoft payroll misinformed them right from the get go, by telling them that it was something it was not. This is a publicity stunt, and I swear that Microsoft payed millions of dollars to top level PR-strategists and communication experts, to engineer this "test" in such a fashion, that you would conclude exactly, what is the presented conclusion here.

This is not a proper test of Vista.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

This sums up the Vista situation for me. And contrary to the Mojave experiment, this IS actually top level science, used to deliver TRUTH!

[www.ted.com]

The thought that the pensioner, that sends 10 emails a year, should have a quad-core with w7, and an internet connection so Microsoft can validate, every time she boots up, so they know she is not a pirate, is NOT a benign idea.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2010 02:53PM by Morbid.

In what way was Vista unfinished?

You realise you don't need the internet to validate right?

You realise you have the option not to install WGA or WAT?

But anyway, the hunt for more power is driven from way above the consumer or standard business users. It's driven from super-computers and filters down to the consumer over time. The consumer themselves does very little pushing - we have to put up with what comes our way, and regardless, the whole netbook/tablet/phone boom goes completely against this grain.

As stated earlier, you don't have to be a sheep. Just stick Ubuntu on and live a life of contentedness.

That is the best you can do?!?

gav Wrote:
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> As stated earlier, you don't have to be a sheep.
> Just stick Ubuntu on and live a life of
> contentedness.

Accepting the choices that other people hand down to you, without reflection, protest, nor exploration of other options under your own scutiny, is the very definition of being a sheep.

So following your advice, I have to say: go @#$%& yourself with your advice!

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

Best I can do? They're genuine questions and facts that you've either not bothered answering or are ignorant to.

It's not advice, it's merely your option if you don't accept what Microsoft and the hardware manufacturers give you. I realise I'm a sheep, but if something helps me do what I want to do, and do it faster or better, then I'm happy to be one thanks.

gav Wrote:
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> Best I can do? They're genuine questions and facts
> that you've either not bothered answering or are
> ignorant to.


I find it astonishing, that you can feel dismay, that I ignore your questions or answer them with questions, when you employed the exact same method of operations. You answered none of my questions, and gave consideration to practically nothing of what I posted.

Clear out the hypocrisy before you get all worked up.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

You didn't pose any questions. I've merely addressed the points of other which I feel should have been addressed.

That is really a cheap rhetorical response. So the only way you can solicit a response on issues that are addressed, in a written debate, is by actually typing a question mark? If that is your position, this conversation has reach the very end of it's usefulness.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

If I haven't addressed something, then either someone else did or I broadly agreed with was said.

I'm not going to rip apart entire posts for the sake of it.

*gets some popcorn and moves closer to the screen*

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REHAB IS FOR QUITTERS

Having used god knows how many OS's over the past 5 years for research and university projects, Ubuntu, RedHat, HP UX, Cisco IOS, OSX, Windows Server and desktops editions just to name the broad spectrum, Windows is still the best all rounder available for general business and for general home use. You don't need a net connection to validate like Gav said, so that really isn't the issue.

Windows Vista did get a bad press, and while there were some points that were valid, such as UAC, a lot of it was not really down to the fault of Microsoft, but like Gav says, of manufacturers simply not getting their hardware support sorted. This was always going to be the case unfortunately with such a large change in the 6 or so years since XP, and can even be seen when Windows XP x64 was launched and the hopeless compatibility issues, making this a prelude to what was to come. Now that 7 is just basically a polished version of Vista, the issue that plaged Vista of hardware issues and support therefore no longer exists, making the perception of it that much more better to the general public.

If I'm using Microsoft for being a sheep, then I guess I'm a sheep, but its not for the lack of trying others or ignorance. Microsoft certainly weren't pushing 7 to make barrels of profit from day 1 (especially with the world+1 of offers if you had Vista already, eg, I got 7 for free on this very laptop). Yes they are out to make money, like any business, but they also don't want to lose market share. If they did nothing, and someone else came on the scene with something absolutely amazing, then company B simply take their place doing exactly the same thing.

Right now in the business where I currently manage IT, if I did use XP / Server 2003 till it broke for all the staff, I would be quite screwed right now. XP/2003 limitations would make it very difficult to work with our other modern non-Microsoft products and hardware. XP is now becoming rather out dated and limited in many ways, perhaps not for the general public, but very much so in terms of business. This is not just a Microsoft issue of trying to push new products to make money, its also an issue of the industry launching newer and better products to make businesses more productive and efficient but will obviously require more and more resources.

I'd also just like to say in the last year I've gained a lot more Microsoft licences and products and actually saved over £4,000 annually over what we were spending with less.

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97kirkc, you have become an IT manager? First congratulations. Secondly, oh my god, there are so many people I already feel sorry for...


So let us look at some substantial decisions there have been made regarding Vistas awesomeness:

In the mid-1990s Dell and Gateway wanted to start offering Linux as an option on their server systems. Microsoft threatened to cut off the supply of Windows licenses if they did not change their business plans. So Microsoft really knows how to deliver the product the consumer really needs, right? They serve the wishes of business, helping them become more efficient.

However, that didn't seem to scare off HP from going their own ways.

They put Open Source and Linux right into their business strategy...


Why? Because Vista was brilliant? They didn't seem to think so:

Hewlett-Packard (HPQ), a longtime Microsoft ally, has quietly assembled a group of engineers to develop software that would make Windows Vista easier to use, or bypass some of its more onerous features. A Skunk Works of engineers at the company is even angling to replace Windows with an HP-assembled operating system, sources say.


Vista was banned in the public sector in the state of Texas. Texas is known for Georg Bush, but it is also decidedly republican an MASSIVELY pro-business. They had to make do with XP anyway, because Vista was crap:

Sen. Juan Hinojosa, vice chairman of the Finance Committee, the one who proposed the Windows Vista ban says that his actions were spurred by the “many reports of problems with Vista”. “We are not in any way, shape or form trying to pick on Microsoft, but the problems with this particular [operating] system are known nationwide. And the XP operating system is working very well,” adds the Democrat.


The french police force also thought Vista was crap. Actually they thought everything Microsoft was crap. So the switched to Ubuntu and OpenOffice, and what happened?

The Gendarmerie Nationale (this is the official title of the national police force from France), upon adopting Ubuntu on its workstations has plenty to be happy about: users are happy with the operating system, networks have never worked better, and costs are down by more than €7 million (that’s almost $9 million).


Experienced Microsoft reviewers, even those that were in favor of Vista, recognized why we would not need to switch:

But the problem with the five year gestation isn't that OS X and Linux have caught up and in some ways surpassed Windows, which of course they have in some respects. The problem isn't even that Microsoft promised us the world and then failed to deliver. No, the problem is that there's another OS out there that runs just fine on over 400 million computers around the world. That system is stable, secure, and gets the job done. It's Windows Vista's biggest competitor. To be fair, it's Windows Vista's only competitor. Maybe you've heard of it: It's called Windows XP.

and

Microsoft's job, now, is to convince you that its previous Windows system, XP, is not good enough. I don't envy them that task. And I don't really have a stake in this argument either way. I'm sure Windows Vista will be a blockbuster release because of its many new features, cool new user interface, and enhanced security. And I'm sure that people who really care about computers will gravitate towards Vista like moths to a flame. It's hard to ignore something this good.


But Vista is so much faster! Windows7 is just really Vista with a few tweaks!

Really... to me it seems that Vista, even today is slower than XP in many respects, and that the only real delivery of promise came with Windows7


Of course, all these people are either stupid or blind, because they can't see the wonders of Vista and w7. Yeah right...

I have a student job as the operator at the largest university in Denmark. I have been in 2 departments for 4 years now. I interact on a weekly basis with the central IT department. That is a massive operation. Providing seamless telecommunications through several operator stations to Hardline phones/cell phones/IP telephony and integrating that with several time management and message systems, over a multitude of different addresses is no small operation. Pretty much everything is running XP/Server 2003. Why? Because it is stable, relatively bug-free and thoroughly tested over a period of years on a number of very diverse environments. We have many problems with them, and some are very hard to fix, but XP is not one of them. There have been no discussions to switch to Vista or W7. It has not even been mentioned once. In fact, I don't think there is any department that is running Vista/w7.

I have held several other student jobs, some of them quite heavy in the IT demands, where I have worked in close cooperation with the programmers and head of IT. Never did I hear plans for Vista. Don't work there now, and don't talk to any employees, so I don't know what they will do with W7.

Finally, this has nothing to do with being a sheep for using MS. Screw you and your "you don't have to activate", 97kirkc. It doesn't surprise me you didn't get it, because you usually don't!

This has to do with being so hyped up about new technology, that you accept ludicrous things in the name of "progress". The WAT system is intrusive and violation of privacy.

I would never allow music companies to install "tattle tale" code in my music, so that my iPod (which is also @#$%&, but damn it looks good and people want to see it and fondle it all the time!) would report authenticity of the code that is the music, every time I plugged it into a computer. I would not even allow that even once. I would not allow Microsoft Officials to stop me on the street and inspect my computer for a authentic version of Windows. I would not allow D&G to stop me on the street to inspect if my t-shirt was authentic, Rayban to inspect if my sun-glasses were authentic.

So why would I allow them to do the EXACT same through a piece of code? Just because it became invisible does not make it any more reasonable.

Accepting Microsoft prodding you up your ass, violating your privacy, intruding in your computer, programming it to spy on you, accepting their blatant lie spin stories about Vista performance as truth, and spreading the gospel to as many people as possible - that is being sheep!

If you want to live your lives like that, fine by me. But don't spread that infections mind virus. Enjoy your disease in private - that is until Microsoft comes to check in on you, to see if you are being properly contagious, spreading their mind virus, threatening to pull all your Microsoft licenses if you don't!

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

Morbid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is a computer! It is a tool... just
> like a hammer! Nothing less, nothing more. Relax
> dude, and realize that there is more, and life
> revolves about something else.

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But you've not actually said why Vista is supposedly unfinished. Added to that, some of you sources, none of which actually say anything, don't even cite sources themselves, merely "a source". One of them even seemed to base his (apparently big hammer stance) on "reports"!

I work for a county council and I'm pushing out W7 as quickly as possible (on computers above a certain hard drive capacity) - not so much because of W7 itself, but more because of just how well it works with Server 2008 R2, allowing you to do any number of things which is impossible with XP (regardless of server). Things such as how simple and customised you can assign printers to certain rooms or users and then choosing a default printer based on both. The Libraries feature, allowing you to pool together collections of data into a place 1 click away for everyone involved.

Vista isn't as good as 7. I've made a case that it's fully usable on older systems (an old laptop with 512mb RAM was my basis for comparison), but it's just too bulky for it be used for any serious work, and for such systems XP is better. W7 fixes that. It works fine on the slowest modern system I've used (an Acer Aspire netbook, with the slowest SSD around, miles slower than a hard drive from a decade ago). It scales brilliantly. It's faster than XP on slow PCs and pretty much is Vista on decent systems. Both Vista and 7 (and various Linux distros) slap XP around the face with the SuperFetch (and its various Linux guises) on highish end systems. Photoshop opening in 20 seconds or 2 seconds... hmm, let me think.

XP is stable (well, other than unsigned drivers), and we were another who didn't roll out Vista at work (primarily due to the lack of ability to scale) - I did use it at home and my own personal PC at work - but 7 fixes everything that was negative about Vista (which wasn't anything if you took out how well it worked on older hardware) and takes away the need for W7.

Nothing you've written or provided has indicated any flaws with Vista other than what's already been said. It's known to be bulky, but that's it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2010 11:54PM by gav.

You might not have noticed, but what I am harping on is not a computer (as you quote me for), but (initially) corporate abuse of power, violation of user rights, and (secondly) blindness and callousness to the former, because of unbridled technophilia and gullibility.

To me, brutalization from concentrations of power is pretty central to disturbing what life is about.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

Dude, seriously chill! It's just a nice (or was) friendly discussion on OS practices. I feel sorry for you if you havent even looked or discussed it at the university where you work, you're missing out on some very cool technologies/hardware that can be applied as well as some vast improvements that users will love. For the record, like im sure Gav does where he works, we do have Linux and Unix servers for specific jobs, but for our main applications, its Microsoft based and that is simple really: It's a good business deal for our clients, the software works, and I get 24 hr support for any problem we encounter.

And yes, the users are very happy with the work we do, thanks for that!

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