Frech ban of scarfs opposed
Posted by Ellis
[news.bbc.co.uk]
Oh get a grip for god sake
Racing Is Life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting
Jesus may be able to heal the sick and bring the dead back to life, but he can't do shît for low fps
Oh get a grip for god sake
Racing Is Life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting
Jesus may be able to heal the sick and bring the dead back to life, but he can't do shît for low fps
OMG :|
That has gone too far
That has gone too far
Yeah what do they think they're doing?!?!? Scarves SHOULD be banned! :|
"Treat others with respect and you too will be respected." Oac - ed'c dnia - E ys yldiymmo drec cyt.
"Treat others with respect and you too will be respected." Oac - ed'c dnia - E ys yldiymmo drec cyt.
The people who want to ban them. Banning them removes a part of freedom of speech and takes them one step closer to making everyone the same.
Racing Is Life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting
Jesus may be able to heal the sick and bring the dead back to life, but he can't do shît for low fps
Racing Is Life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting
Jesus may be able to heal the sick and bring the dead back to life, but he can't do shît for low fps
A lot of msolim women actaully see the scarf as a symbol for their discremination, but still wear it because they fear the reaction of their families. Now, what freedom is it? The right of a moslim women to be discriminated? Banning it might take away some kind of freedom - accepting it does the same. Now, what kind of freedom is it that enables others to take away your freedom?
In Germany we have the same discussion. The case we had here was about a Turkish teacher who was not allowed to wear the sacrf in school. In can understand why they did forbid it. As a teacher in Germany you are not allowed to influence students on what to believe. You are not allowed to display any signs of religious affiliation. If I am not allowed to wear a crucifix, why should someone else be allowed to wear a scarf as a sign of commitment to his or her religion?
IMO scarfs should be banned, since the way they are used over here, they really are a sign for an undemocratic, sexist and unfree social order.
REHAB IS FOR QUITTERS
In Germany we have the same discussion. The case we had here was about a Turkish teacher who was not allowed to wear the sacrf in school. In can understand why they did forbid it. As a teacher in Germany you are not allowed to influence students on what to believe. You are not allowed to display any signs of religious affiliation. If I am not allowed to wear a crucifix, why should someone else be allowed to wear a scarf as a sign of commitment to his or her religion?
IMO scarfs should be banned, since the way they are used over here, they really are a sign for an undemocratic, sexist and unfree social order.
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In English it is spelled "Moslem", in German we say "Muslim" as well. "Msolim" is definitely wrong.
1. I know the Koran a bit myself and there is no way the sacrf is a must in íslamic religion.
2. If the scarf does contradict the principles of free, democratic societies - and sexual equality is one of them - than it has no place in a free, democratic society.
REHAB IS FOR QUITTERS
1. I know the Koran a bit myself and there is no way the sacrf is a must in íslamic religion.
2. If the scarf does contradict the principles of free, democratic societies - and sexual equality is one of them - than it has no place in a free, democratic society.
REHAB IS FOR QUITTERS
"Banning them removes a part of freedom of speech and takes them one step closer to making everyone the same."
yeah, I think same way.
My photo gallery: [viltzu86.deviantart.com]
yeah, I think same way.
My photo gallery: [viltzu86.deviantart.com]
I've always spelt it Muslim. Everybody else does.
"Treat others with respect and you too will be respected." Oac - ed'c dnia - E ys yldiymmo drec cyt.
"Treat others with respect and you too will be respected." Oac - ed'c dnia - E ys yldiymmo drec cyt.
"As a teacher in Germany you are not allowed to influence students on what to believe. You are not allowed to display any signs of religious affiliation."
i think that sucks. In Finland many student in school wears crucifixes. We get crucifix after confirmation from our godparents, and it's has become habit for many students to use it in school everyday. And also teachers can wear crucifixes.
Crucifix ban wouldn't ever happen in Finland!
Post Edited (12-18-03 16:57)
My photo gallery: [viltzu86.deviantart.com]
i think that sucks. In Finland many student in school wears crucifixes. We get crucifix after confirmation from our godparents, and it's has become habit for many students to use it in school everyday. And also teachers can wear crucifixes.
Crucifix ban wouldn't ever happen in Finland!
Post Edited (12-18-03 16:57)
My photo gallery: [viltzu86.deviantart.com]
I didn't make the laws - I only break them :D
REHAB IS FOR QUITTERS
REHAB IS FOR QUITTERS
In the UK it is illegal to infulence people relgiouly in the work place
This applies to teachers in schools....but yet they still make you go to church until your 16
I see your point Vader, but if you ban them you are saying by law, nobody can wear them otherwise your in crap.
Removing them also removes freedom of speech. If you ban them and the guy still treats the women badly you have gotten nowhere, except took a scarf off her head. Life wont be any different except she no longer is allowed to wear it
Racing Is Life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting
Jesus may be able to heal the sick and bring the dead back to life, but he can't do shît for low fps
This applies to teachers in schools....but yet they still make you go to church until your 16
I see your point Vader, but if you ban them you are saying by law, nobody can wear them otherwise your in crap.
Removing them also removes freedom of speech. If you ban them and the guy still treats the women badly you have gotten nowhere, except took a scarf off her head. Life wont be any different except she no longer is allowed to wear it
Racing Is Life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting
Jesus may be able to heal the sick and bring the dead back to life, but he can't do shît for low fps
There was an interesting programme on TV recently about the relationship between Church and State. It explained how, because of GWB's very open Christian faith, a lot of people are not making too much of a difference between the Church and the State. There are now various churches in Texas who will pray for the Church and also for the State. Just the US of A, not any of the other states! Because it's illegal for one religion to be favoured over another, what Bush is doing is verging on illegality. He's also trying to set up Christian prisons, so that everyone who goes there will become a good Christian, presumably. But this is quite clearly favoritism, and therefore is illegal.
We don't forbid our female islamic students to wear scarfs. It is just the teachers that are not allowed to do it (in most federal states, I must add). As a teacher you have to take an oath on the constitution. If you don't agree with it, then don't become a teacher. If you do it and take the oath, you are bound to it.
As I said, students are allowed to wear scarfs. This, however, leads to other problems. I do not tolerate students wearing baseball caps in class. Now, they say "Why can't I wear my cap if she is allowed to wear her headpiece?" In a way, they accuse me of double standards and from their perspectove they are right. I certainly have no problems with religuious tolerance but you have to know the limits. If I allow Muslims to wear scarfs there is no way forbidding potential followers of Voodoo religion to sacrifice a chicken before a test. This may sound ridicolous - it is certainly an exaggeration - but on principle it is true.
In some French schools they did ban scarfs to protect muslim women who chose NOT to wear scarfs. Those girls were usually regarded as fair game and thus were constantly subjects to sexual molestations. Boys were like "Hmm, she's not got a scarf, so she is a slut and probably does anyone".
A colleague of mine once spend their holidays in Syria. She went into a restaurant wearing trousers and guess what? She was being ignored. Back in the hotel they told her that women in trousers are being regarded as "obscene". They kindly ask her to respect the rules and dress in a way that was approproiate for the social system she was guest of. Can't we ask the for same - respect for OUR social system that is - amongst other things - based on principles like sexual equality?
Post Edited (12-18-03 23:21)
REHAB IS FOR QUITTERS
As I said, students are allowed to wear scarfs. This, however, leads to other problems. I do not tolerate students wearing baseball caps in class. Now, they say "Why can't I wear my cap if she is allowed to wear her headpiece?" In a way, they accuse me of double standards and from their perspectove they are right. I certainly have no problems with religuious tolerance but you have to know the limits. If I allow Muslims to wear scarfs there is no way forbidding potential followers of Voodoo religion to sacrifice a chicken before a test. This may sound ridicolous - it is certainly an exaggeration - but on principle it is true.
In some French schools they did ban scarfs to protect muslim women who chose NOT to wear scarfs. Those girls were usually regarded as fair game and thus were constantly subjects to sexual molestations. Boys were like "Hmm, she's not got a scarf, so she is a slut and probably does anyone".
A colleague of mine once spend their holidays in Syria. She went into a restaurant wearing trousers and guess what? She was being ignored. Back in the hotel they told her that women in trousers are being regarded as "obscene". They kindly ask her to respect the rules and dress in a way that was approproiate for the social system she was guest of. Can't we ask the for same - respect for OUR social system that is - amongst other things - based on principles like sexual equality?
Post Edited (12-18-03 23:21)
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In some French schools they did ban scarfs to protect muslim women who chose NOT to wear scarfs.
And what about the people who do want to wear them?
"oh sorry, you are no longer allowed to follow the rules of your relgion - we are banning them"
Isnt that relgious favoritism?
Racing Is Life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting
Jesus may be able to heal the sick and bring the dead back to life, but he can't do shît for low fps
And what about the people who do want to wear them?
"oh sorry, you are no longer allowed to follow the rules of your relgion - we are banning them"
Isnt that relgious favoritism?
Racing Is Life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting
Jesus may be able to heal the sick and bring the dead back to life, but he can't do shît for low fps
No, since they don't allow any display of religious believes.
If following "the rules of your religion" means that you discriminate people because of their sex, colour of skin, religion or origin, you should not be allowed to follow these rules. As I see it the sacrf is a symbol of the dsicrimination of women as such - regardless if single women like or not. Most islamic civil rights activist will agree with me there.
REHAB IS FOR QUITTERS
If following "the rules of your religion" means that you discriminate people because of their sex, colour of skin, religion or origin, you should not be allowed to follow these rules. As I see it the sacrf is a symbol of the dsicrimination of women as such - regardless if single women like or not. Most islamic civil rights activist will agree with me there.
REHAB IS FOR QUITTERS
Why? Is it not possible that some women might actaully want to wear these?
I dont see it as discrimination at all. If they dont want to wear it, **** it, dont wear it, if they want to, who is to say they should not be allowed? Isnt that remvoing a freedom of speech? One step closer to making everyone the same
Racing Is Life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting
Jesus may be able to heal the sick and bring the dead back to life, but he can't do shît for low fps
I dont see it as discrimination at all. If they dont want to wear it, **** it, dont wear it, if they want to, who is to say they should not be allowed? Isnt that remvoing a freedom of speech? One step closer to making everyone the same
Racing Is Life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting
Jesus may be able to heal the sick and bring the dead back to life, but he can't do shît for low fps
I dont see it as discrimination at all. If they dont want to wear it, **** it, dont wear it, if they want to, who is to say they should not be allowed?
Actually it is not that easy. There is too much pressure (psychological and sometimes even physical) that you cannot really say "If they dont want to wear it, **** it, dont wear it". Unfortunmately it is not always a matter of individual choice - it's a matter of succumbing to that tradition or being an outcast.
@ yhaneef
Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to offend or discrminate Muslims. I have deep respect for this religion. You probably know The Noble Quran better than me and you might be a able to read it in Arabian, whereas I have only read German, respectively English translations. That means that if I make mistakes you must teach me, since I know less than you.
Which Sura are you refering to? The only ones I can think of are 24.30 and 24.31. So let's have a look at them.
24.30
Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do.
24.31
And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss.
In the English version ist says "draw their veils over their bosoms". The German version has "cloths" instead. Since the Quran is the word of God and all translations can only be variations from the word of God, His word - in Arabian - must be the valid word. In the Arabian version we find Khimar. This term, however, can linguistically also be read as "cloths". The usage of "headscarf" is not the (only) original meaning. At the time The Noble Quran came into existence, khimar was definitley used in a more general way.
Even if we read Khimar as "veil", what do have then? We have a Sura that says women must wear some kind of a veil or cloth over their bossom. It does not say head, and most certainly not face.
In connection with Sura 33.59 where it says
O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
one can say that 24.31 is just a directive to dress in a decent way to avoid molestations - in other words no plunging neckline, hence the veil over their bosoms.
I don't find any refernce to headscarf there. If this is not correct, please correct me.
Post Edited (12-24-03 01:36)
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Actually it is not that easy. There is too much pressure (psychological and sometimes even physical) that you cannot really say "If they dont want to wear it, **** it, dont wear it". Unfortunmately it is not always a matter of individual choice - it's a matter of succumbing to that tradition or being an outcast.
@ yhaneef
Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to offend or discrminate Muslims. I have deep respect for this religion. You probably know The Noble Quran better than me and you might be a able to read it in Arabian, whereas I have only read German, respectively English translations. That means that if I make mistakes you must teach me, since I know less than you.
Which Sura are you refering to? The only ones I can think of are 24.30 and 24.31. So let's have a look at them.
24.30
Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do.
24.31
And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss.
In the English version ist says "draw their veils over their bosoms". The German version has "cloths" instead. Since the Quran is the word of God and all translations can only be variations from the word of God, His word - in Arabian - must be the valid word. In the Arabian version we find Khimar. This term, however, can linguistically also be read as "cloths". The usage of "headscarf" is not the (only) original meaning. At the time The Noble Quran came into existence, khimar was definitley used in a more general way.
Even if we read Khimar as "veil", what do have then? We have a Sura that says women must wear some kind of a veil or cloth over their bossom. It does not say head, and most certainly not face.
In connection with Sura 33.59 where it says
O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
one can say that 24.31 is just a directive to dress in a decent way to avoid molestations - in other words no plunging neckline, hence the veil over their bosoms.
I don't find any refernce to headscarf there. If this is not correct, please correct me.
Post Edited (12-24-03 01:36)
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