Moderation: Best proof
Posted by Bruno
The best proof that the forums really need a moderation is the "forums' moderation" topic itself. Again, a topic is invalidated by silly and meaningless posts. 
Sorry for the sensible members.
--------------------------------------
Staff of grandprixgames.org 2000 - 2003
Sorry for the sensible members.
--------------------------------------
Staff of grandprixgames.org 2000 - 2003
Besides we asked those who want moderators to speak up several times and nothing happened. Apparently the vast majority does not want them. Apparently the vast majority does not take offence at threads going OT, too, since sooner or later they come back on topic again. If you think that our (namely my) contributions to this forum are meaningless, just let us know.
Anyway, I guess we are still helpful to each other and to newbies. Apart from all the jokes and fights (some of them faked, some of them real) this is still the place to get info about the Gpx series. As long as this is not hindered by OTs, why take offence?
I have deep respect for your and Stephan's work and have never missed an opportunity to say this in public. I simply love this forum; it is like a virtual home for me. But like at home a bit of spontaneity can do no harm. Of course I like to keep my things in order and I don't just go around, randomly putting stuff wherever I find a place for it, but a bit of chaos does add to the atmosphere.
This forum is more than just all its members added up - I think it has turned into a living thing, some organic being that is constantly evolving - I have used the metaphor of a novel that is writing itself for it before. Why not letting it evolve the way it wants? Why forcing it into a rigid corset that will inevitably suffocate it?
If you choose to introduce moderators there is probably nothing we can do about, besides I doubt that you will let me do this job. At least my suggestion to do so was meant to be earnest, not a meaningless attempt to invalidate this topic. I just can say, if the forum changes, the members will change, too. One of the reasons why this forum is so successful - apart from your and Stephan
REHAB IS FOR QUITTERS
Anyway, I guess we are still helpful to each other and to newbies. Apart from all the jokes and fights (some of them faked, some of them real) this is still the place to get info about the Gpx series. As long as this is not hindered by OTs, why take offence?
I have deep respect for your and Stephan's work and have never missed an opportunity to say this in public. I simply love this forum; it is like a virtual home for me. But like at home a bit of spontaneity can do no harm. Of course I like to keep my things in order and I don't just go around, randomly putting stuff wherever I find a place for it, but a bit of chaos does add to the atmosphere.
This forum is more than just all its members added up - I think it has turned into a living thing, some organic being that is constantly evolving - I have used the metaphor of a novel that is writing itself for it before. Why not letting it evolve the way it wants? Why forcing it into a rigid corset that will inevitably suffocate it?
If you choose to introduce moderators there is probably nothing we can do about, besides I doubt that you will let me do this job. At least my suggestion to do so was meant to be earnest, not a meaningless attempt to invalidate this topic. I just can say, if the forum changes, the members will change, too. One of the reasons why this forum is so successful - apart from your and Stephan
REHAB IS FOR QUITTERS
I feel pretty caught up here between a rock and a hard place. This is a tight squeeze.
Bruno, I can understand that you react. I had pretty much anticipated it. However, with all due respect, I am not certain that getting all red in the face is the appropriate way to respond.
If you go back and look at the times of censorship in the 19th century Europe, you will see that every time the governmental institutions tinkered with the freedom to print ones opinions and distribute them, the immediate reaction almost always was a public provocative attitude, that contested the new regulations. Two things were generally at stake:
1) People like to be able to do whatever they want, when ever they want, where ever they want to. Having had the benefit of widespread autonomy in the past, of course users will contest limitations on what can be posted. Giving up autonomy, and putting ones freedom at someone elses discrection, is a hard thing to do. And this is exactly what the new way will force us to do. So, thinking about the other topic, had you really expected otherwise?
Of course, civilized society and on a smaller scale, this forum, cannot tolerate uninhibited freedom. It is a well asserted fact, that total and unrestricted freedom for one person is suppression of someone elses freedom. For instance, those that cannot "talk the OT talk" and "walk the forum jargon walk" can experience problems, simply because they feel inferior to those that can, and hence they don't post (or lurk) and thus subject themselves to self-censorship. I can see that, and so can others. Mortalwombat regularly goes on a "lurkers and guests come out wherever you are", and it is customary to greet first time posters as warmly as we can. However, I am not sure that everyone can see this, unless someone describes the problem. Which brings me to the second point.
2) To quote myself from the other thread:
If it can be shown that it [more moderation] is needed, I am very certain that everyone, even Vader, will be more than interested in figuring out what we can do about it. And perhaps we might even find an agreement that satisfies all wishes, that can be implemented without more moderation. But we need more input...
Taking this topics header at face value, then yes it has been shown. But thats really not the end of the story. If we replace the current situation, there is a vacuum of sorts. While we might be ready to accept that a change might be needed, it is entirely something else to agree on what is needed. Those that voted for more moderation don't say anything, but it is clear that they wanted something. You, Bruno, seem to have a clear vision of what you want, but we don't know exactly what that is. All we know is what you don't like. There might be more than a few that agree wholeheartedly with you on this, but that doesn't mean that they are not unsure on whether or not, that which is on the horizon is an improvement (which it very well might be, and handled correctly, I am almost certain that it is).
That the topic went OT was in no way directed at you, your work, wishes or opinions. I think it is just as possible to read it as an effort to try and understand, by experimenting with the new limits of what is tolerated and what is not, that can show what we can expect in the future. In a sense, we are groping in the dark, fumbling our way forwards, and that necessarily means that we will touch the wrong things and press the wrong buttons, simply we want to know what they are and understand them.
Okay, that became a bit abstract, but in short: we need to get away from the negative visions, that is what we don't want, and get some more positive visions for the future, that is what we DO want.
You can help us out here, and cut our proces of experimentation short. You could formulate what you expect a moderator should do:
What are the tasks at hand (is it also stopping fights when they have begun, or stopping them before they begin, or trying and guide discussions back into sensible forms, on top of hunting down threads that are on the way to go OT), which methods can and should be employed (Should moderators primarly issue warnings, or delete threads, or delete posts, or move threads, or locking up threads, or ban people for short periods of time, or perhaps forever
).
I think this is important. Not only does it show, what it is you want, we can also contest that at face value (instead of showing resistance against the unknown future by going OT), just by saying that we don't think that this or that is necessary, and hopefully at the same time prepose a different solution. In short if people can talk about what they want, and be commited to preposing something else when they reject something, we can negotiate, and if we can do that, we can agree.
And the agreement is even more important, since any moderator that has to enforce the new way, will most likely come from this forum. Being the person that has to be harsh on your friends and mates, is going to be a tough job, and I doubt that anyone would like to have that job unless they feel that the forum, as a collective, maybe even as a society of sorts, has said "Okay, we understand that doing so and so is screwing up. We accept that you can do this to us, if we screw up".
Having said all that, I appreciate the fact that you and Stephan opened this forum, maintain it, and pay the bills, and that has made it possible for me to have the a heap of experiences, that easily qualify as the best I have ever had on the internet, fuelled me with the input I needed to continue trying to master the GPx series (going for Pro or Ace now, can't really decide), and let me meet many new people from all over the globe. This very day (having registered 2/2 2001) I have had that at my fingertips every day for exactly 2 years, while you have asked little or nothing in return. I thank you for that. If people are uncertain of whats to come, its because they love this place. As you can see from what I have written above, I have my vision for how the forum should be, but I also accept that this forum is yours.
If you, Bruno and Stephan, want something, so it shall be. I mean no disrespect. I just thought I would add my 2 cents.
Post Edited (02-03-03 04:09)
It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.
Bruno, I can understand that you react. I had pretty much anticipated it. However, with all due respect, I am not certain that getting all red in the face is the appropriate way to respond.
If you go back and look at the times of censorship in the 19th century Europe, you will see that every time the governmental institutions tinkered with the freedom to print ones opinions and distribute them, the immediate reaction almost always was a public provocative attitude, that contested the new regulations. Two things were generally at stake:
1) People like to be able to do whatever they want, when ever they want, where ever they want to. Having had the benefit of widespread autonomy in the past, of course users will contest limitations on what can be posted. Giving up autonomy, and putting ones freedom at someone elses discrection, is a hard thing to do. And this is exactly what the new way will force us to do. So, thinking about the other topic, had you really expected otherwise?
Of course, civilized society and on a smaller scale, this forum, cannot tolerate uninhibited freedom. It is a well asserted fact, that total and unrestricted freedom for one person is suppression of someone elses freedom. For instance, those that cannot "talk the OT talk" and "walk the forum jargon walk" can experience problems, simply because they feel inferior to those that can, and hence they don't post (or lurk) and thus subject themselves to self-censorship. I can see that, and so can others. Mortalwombat regularly goes on a "lurkers and guests come out wherever you are", and it is customary to greet first time posters as warmly as we can. However, I am not sure that everyone can see this, unless someone describes the problem. Which brings me to the second point.
2) To quote myself from the other thread:
If it can be shown that it [more moderation] is needed, I am very certain that everyone, even Vader, will be more than interested in figuring out what we can do about it. And perhaps we might even find an agreement that satisfies all wishes, that can be implemented without more moderation. But we need more input...
Taking this topics header at face value, then yes it has been shown. But thats really not the end of the story. If we replace the current situation, there is a vacuum of sorts. While we might be ready to accept that a change might be needed, it is entirely something else to agree on what is needed. Those that voted for more moderation don't say anything, but it is clear that they wanted something. You, Bruno, seem to have a clear vision of what you want, but we don't know exactly what that is. All we know is what you don't like. There might be more than a few that agree wholeheartedly with you on this, but that doesn't mean that they are not unsure on whether or not, that which is on the horizon is an improvement (which it very well might be, and handled correctly, I am almost certain that it is).
That the topic went OT was in no way directed at you, your work, wishes or opinions. I think it is just as possible to read it as an effort to try and understand, by experimenting with the new limits of what is tolerated and what is not, that can show what we can expect in the future. In a sense, we are groping in the dark, fumbling our way forwards, and that necessarily means that we will touch the wrong things and press the wrong buttons, simply we want to know what they are and understand them.
Okay, that became a bit abstract, but in short: we need to get away from the negative visions, that is what we don't want, and get some more positive visions for the future, that is what we DO want.
You can help us out here, and cut our proces of experimentation short. You could formulate what you expect a moderator should do:
What are the tasks at hand (is it also stopping fights when they have begun, or stopping them before they begin, or trying and guide discussions back into sensible forms, on top of hunting down threads that are on the way to go OT), which methods can and should be employed (Should moderators primarly issue warnings, or delete threads, or delete posts, or move threads, or locking up threads, or ban people for short periods of time, or perhaps forever
).I think this is important. Not only does it show, what it is you want, we can also contest that at face value (instead of showing resistance against the unknown future by going OT), just by saying that we don't think that this or that is necessary, and hopefully at the same time prepose a different solution. In short if people can talk about what they want, and be commited to preposing something else when they reject something, we can negotiate, and if we can do that, we can agree.
And the agreement is even more important, since any moderator that has to enforce the new way, will most likely come from this forum. Being the person that has to be harsh on your friends and mates, is going to be a tough job, and I doubt that anyone would like to have that job unless they feel that the forum, as a collective, maybe even as a society of sorts, has said "Okay, we understand that doing so and so is screwing up. We accept that you can do this to us, if we screw up".
Having said all that, I appreciate the fact that you and Stephan opened this forum, maintain it, and pay the bills, and that has made it possible for me to have the a heap of experiences, that easily qualify as the best I have ever had on the internet, fuelled me with the input I needed to continue trying to master the GPx series (going for Pro or Ace now, can't really decide), and let me meet many new people from all over the globe. This very day (having registered 2/2 2001) I have had that at my fingertips every day for exactly 2 years, while you have asked little or nothing in return. I thank you for that. If people are uncertain of whats to come, its because they love this place. As you can see from what I have written above, I have my vision for how the forum should be, but I also accept that this forum is yours.
If you, Bruno and Stephan, want something, so it shall be. I mean no disrespect. I just thought I would add my 2 cents.
Post Edited (02-03-03 04:09)
It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.
Thought that was coming :-/
[www.mediafire.com] Some say you should click it, you know you want to.
[www.gp4central.com] <----GP4 Central
[www.mediafire.com] Some say you should click it, you know you want to.
[www.gp4central.com] <----GP4 CentralIf you think that our (namely my) contributions to this forum are meaningless, just let us know.
That would truly spoil the forum though. Its a fact, ask anybody to name a member on this board, and there is a good chance it'll be you Vader. Your unique
That would truly spoil the forum though. Its a fact, ask anybody to name a member on this board, and there is a good chance it'll be you Vader. Your unique
and to think, i heard that mega post man was dead 
LS's Tip of the week
ESSENTIAL OILS aren't essential unless you're an engine, a gearbox or a twat
LS's Tip of the week
ESSENTIAL OILS aren't essential unless you're an engine, a gearbox or a twat
unique, notorious, imfamous, or a liability? The jury's still out. j/k
lol.
F1archives * Facebook * YouTube
lol.
F1archives * Facebook * YouTube
The jury's still out
THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS JUST ME.
Before this is considered another turn OT, I am still waiting for constructive criticism. I haven't really heard a negative word up till now.
Post Edited (02-03-03 22:37)
REHAB IS FOR QUITTERS
THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS JUST ME.
Before this is considered another turn OT, I am still waiting for constructive criticism. I haven't really heard a negative word up till now.
Post Edited (02-03-03 22:37)
REHAB IS FOR QUITTERS
You haven't? I can try i u want!
AMD64 3400+ (running at 2,66ghz atm)DDR400 1gb(running at 433) Asus K8N-E Deluxe mobo, 6800ultra, Tagan tg-480w, Audigy 2Zs, Logitech Z-5500 speakers
Using X-aser Lanfire case with 5 fans inside cathodelights etc included aswell :P
AMD64 3400+ (running at 2,66ghz atm
)DDR400 1gb(running at 433) Asus K8N-E Deluxe mobo, 6800ultra, Tagan tg-480w, Audigy 2Zs, Logitech Z-5500 speakersUsing X-aser Lanfire case with 5 fans inside cathodelights etc included aswell :P
Speak
REHAB IS FOR QUITTERS
REHAB IS FOR QUITTERS
hehe lol Just Kidding !
AMD64 3400+ (running at 2,66ghz atm)DDR400 1gb(running at 433) Asus K8N-E Deluxe mobo, 6800ultra, Tagan tg-480w, Audigy 2Zs, Logitech Z-5500 speakers
Using X-aser Lanfire case with 5 fans inside cathodelights etc included aswell :P
AMD64 3400+ (running at 2,66ghz atm
)DDR400 1gb(running at 433) Asus K8N-E Deluxe mobo, 6800ultra, Tagan tg-480w, Audigy 2Zs, Logitech Z-5500 speakersUsing X-aser Lanfire case with 5 fans inside cathodelights etc included aswell :P
"I can't believe that this just largely goes uncommented by the vast majority of the users here!!! Things are about to change. Think about it!"
im only avoiding it coz theres really really long posts and it will take hours to read :P
im only avoiding it coz theres really really long posts and it will take hours to read :P
:'
:P
/me goes hunting for a speach recignition thing to read the site to me :P
:P/me goes hunting for a speach recignition thing to read the site to me :P
o tempore o mores!
You would have thanked Cesar for inviting you to the circus and never worried about it, since you didn't take the time to read that rather long article about lions and tigers and what their teeth and claws can do to lazy boys.
This is not the time to make jokes about Megapostman. This is so godamn serious that I cannot really understand why nobody does post in here except of bro Morbid and me.
You could at least have the decency to pretend you cared.
Post Edited (02-05-03 00:26)
REHAB IS FOR QUITTERS
You would have thanked Cesar for inviting you to the circus and never worried about it, since you didn't take the time to read that rather long article about lions and tigers and what their teeth and claws can do to lazy boys.
This is not the time to make jokes about Megapostman. This is so godamn serious that I cannot really understand why nobody does post in here except of bro Morbid and me.
You could at least have the decency to pretend you cared.
Post Edited (02-05-03 00:26)
REHAB IS FOR QUITTERS
I very much agree with what Morbid said, and I have nothing to add but my approval for his suggestions. In fact, any moderators for any forum should have a read at that, because what is described is exactly what a moderator should be!
*Agreement sounds!*
*Agreement sounds!*
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.