Do Williams still have what it takes?

This was the question I was discussing with a friend a few days ago. It was my believe that they still capable of winning WDC and WCC and being top dog, but with a lack of money compared to the rest they struggle on development. That was pretty much my argument, with his being that even still they should still show the essence of being a top team and creating a good car, which he then goes on to say racing Button and Barachello in 2008 does not mean they had a good car :p!

I'd like to know what you lot think about the Williams situation. Will they get back to the top and can it be possible with the raft of cost cutting changes we have?

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

I think now test during seasons are not allowed anymore, they would mantain in a good level, but with RBS almost out they have less money to delevop before season stars... Its too complicated to me





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2009 05:33PM by Frantic.

Williams always did start a season pretty well, but then fall away as soon as development began. I think the lack of testing mid season will help them because of this. Also, with the cost cutting, maybe they'll have just as much of an opportunity to make a good car as the bigger teams?

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You know you want to. [judgegrudge.mybrute.com]

The bottleneck of Williams is definately the money. I don't know if the cost cutting measures will help them to get back to the top, because the other, richer, teams will also get those cost cuts, so relatively, nothing changes.

What Williams need is a manufacturer that backs them up. The Toyota isn't the strongest of engines, so switching to another supplier might help them. However, that's only favourable if that supplier is wanting to invest money in Williams too.

They can become champions again, they have the right people (although I doubt Nico and Nakajima would be up to the job), it's just the money that's holding them back.

They should have Renault engines again

But I like the combination Williams-Porsche, wish it would be possible

Renault need to put the kind of investment that they put in the 90s to get their current engine up to speed. Only then will it be reliable, challenge regularly for wins and run rings on the competition. Unfortunately, the running of their own F1 team costs a lot of money for them.

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Everyone knows that million-to-one chances happen 9 times out of 10; indeed, it's a common requirement in fairy tales. If the human didn't have to overcome huge odds, what would be the point? Terry Pratchett - The Science Of Discworld

GPGSL S5 Race driver for IED.

I agree that a new engine supplier that invested in Williams would be beneficial to them. Toyota isn't a strong engine but it seems good enough to keep them away from the back of the pack, however it seems that they are hurt by scoring more points with Nakajima in the team. He's still too inconsistent and needs more testing mileage under his belt, or put into the GP2 formula so he can gain experience.

He's quick, but too reckless at times and needs to have his skill honed in, like Massa was at the start of last year, making constant errors and suddenly he became a formidable force near the seasons end.

Williams needs someone who can push Rosberg a little more, and hopefully the new rules will give them a little edge, aside from Jordan, Williams is my favourite team and would love to see them back near the top spot.

Nakajima didn't make that much errors I think. It might seem like that since he hardly gets any coverage and that when he does, it's because of some error.

its a shame bmw wont sell out an engine deal back to williams - i think the worry being they know that williams could challenge the big guns if they had the power behind them, because they have always seemed to achieve more whilst having a lot less cash and development than others.

if this season mashes things up a bit on the level playing field, and Rosberg isn't sold on to BMW or Mercedes (which would surprise me if he didn't these days), then just maybe they could be a podium and top 6 finisher now and then, probably a consistent top 8 team. Which sucks.

It is all speculation, look how bad Ferrari, Mclaren, Benetton etc have turned trumps to sour and back again over a year or two. Benetton went from Zero to Hero in 1994; Mclaren came out of nowhere in 1998; and We all remember how McLaren lost it's edge in the early 90's.

All it takes is one bit of ingenuity on a level development field (like the old days), and then the talent shines through.

Not a lot of people here rate Nico, but I certainly think its the Williams machinery limiting his potential - give him a McLaren and Lewis to chase, or a BMW and Kubica to fight for, I think you will all see a totally replenished fighter in him. As sad as I am to say, Williams is turning him into another Jenson Button factor - the skill is there, but if you drive a mediocre car for so long you forget and seem to drive that way for the rest of your career. Whack Jenson in the McLaren or BMW and he will wake up.

Look as Fisico - he was quick in a shitebox car, his days in Sauber and early Jordan were brilliant. After a few years of that though, they get bored knowing its fighting for a 16th and 17th place and the aggression dwindles. Fisi's chance in 05 and 06, although the car was arguably not suited to him, and Flav gave better treatment to Alonso, you could see that his years at the back had aged him. He should have been put in a 2000's Williams with JPM or Ralf when he was younger.

Same for Trulli. Trulli is so use to driving a car that he knows won't win the race. Trulli is another who should have been sent to a better team - like Ferrari. I would have predicted Trulli may have achieved a similar popularity and likeability to Alesi in the 90's if he had done - but lesser teams let him fade away sadly and he aged into a slower team.

Rubens is the same in only a few ways though, excpet he did get his break when he had that young aggressive flair. Schumacher was a clear team leader and favoured, but because of that chance, and the years racing and showing he was quick to match Mr Schummi, Rubens still has the fight, even at 403 years old. Others lose it if they stay at a slow team too long - Heidfeld is in that old age ripening process, his chance is turning like Fissi's and Trullis.

The younger ones lucky enough to move to a faster team are still young, and had a chance early in their careers in race winning machinery/relatively snappy cars - Kimi, Alonso, Lewis, Massa, Kubica, Vettel etc.

Put Kubica in the Force India for four seasons, and people would forget him. If Rosberg stays at Williams and they don't improve - we can add him to that list for sure.


Jenson drives it like he owns it; Lewis drives it like he stole it



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2009 07:44PM by danm.

horror donkey Wrote:
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> NO
>
> it lacks drivers
>
>
> top designer
>
>
> and FW is a bit too old now
>
> BTW, whats all that fuss about williams. team is
> nothing special, and no it doesnt look that good



it doesent lacks drivers. They dont have money to win, but the potential is still there. They for sure will do something good this year. (yeah, I know "for sure" is for sure () the most used expression in F1 paddock)

FW is not too old, how old is he... 65? Alan Jones is as old as Frank is. Maybe he dont have the chance to run 30 kms, but his brain (and Patrick Head´s one too) is right.

And team IS something special, they are the 3rd most succesful team in history. that isnt special?
and doesent matter if it looks good or not, if the car is fast, is OK.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2009 07:53PM by Frantic.

Hmm... Can Williams return to wining ways?

I hope so... but I have my doubts.

Williams are a shadow of their former glory, the fact of the matter is that they've been outgunned by the manufacturers and they've almost gone down trying to keep up.

I think the team has lost a lot of strength in depth in recent years and are no longer primed as well as teams like Ferrari, McLaren, Renault etc.

However, there is at least the chance of them having a respectable season again and if the future structure of F1 works to their favour they should at least survive and maybe become competitive again.

Nice to you see backup your view with valid points [/irony]

Thing is... if Sir Frank is too old for F1... then so is Bernie Ecclestone, Max Mosley, Luca di Montzelmo etc etc

Williams had it all in the 90s. They had the best designer, the best engines, big money tobacco sponsorship, the best drivers (with the exception of Michael Schumacher), and with Damon Hill they had a driver who was brilliant at developing a car. I can't see them returning to a similar situation anytime soon. Basically the first major step is luring some major engine manufacturer. An interesting one to speculate on would be if they could lure Honda back to F1, maybe sign say Bruno Senna as a driver. There's a combination that could bring major sponsorship to Williams and return them to the stratosphere. But that's just an idea that has come to my head as I type this.

But Bruno Senna would drive to Williams?? (i mean, because the emotional situation)

Oh yeah...possibly not. Like I say, it was just sudden idea!

I dont agree, that when good drivers go to bad team they FAIL , because of the team.
Look at Michael, Benetton (championchip team) ---> to the struggling Ferrari in the mid 90's
And the Ferrari kept struggling until even in 1997,1998.It was just the driver (Michael ) doing an outstanding job on the track and being with about a second faster in every qualifying session and also in the race than his team mate .
But "The Lopper" said something very important ---> driver to develop the car ! ! !
The newcomers and the boys of the new generations dont seem to have this particular thing (except alonso and probably vettel)
In 1999 the Jordan was so quick indeed . Frentzen was potential top 4 every race and in the last few races (monza, nurburgring ) even a dread to the leaders. BUT THERE WAS ONE IMPORTANT FACTOR IN THE BACKGROUND ------> DAMON ! ! !
Look what happened in 2000,2001. Frentzen didn't become worse driver. It's just that without the wright development of the car , it was suffering a lot from mechanical troubles, over- and understeer.
Now look at Renault. So strong in 2005 and 2006 . And then what , reaaaaallly pooooooor after alonso left them . Ok , lets say the BRIDGESTONE troubles. BUT in 2008 the tyres were bridgestone as well and what we saw, A TEAM just like jordan in 1999 ( DRIVER TO DEVELOP THE CAR IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION) and a dread to the leades in the end of the season . (remember alonso saying he would help massa and fight lewis ! )
As for Williams i dont think Nakajima is a good driver at the moment . They need to risk with a young talent, like Bennetton did in 1991 with michael and get rid of a three times world champion (Nelson Piqute , the good one xaxxa) only to have Michael in the team. Senna i think is the best possibility for them . And engines from Mercedes or Ferrari. I really dont know how can spyker , or force india, or torro rosso (when they were still weak team back in 2006) get such an engines and Williams not . But i have faith in WILLIAMS the team ! ! !



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2009 09:06PM by mitadumapaga.

Williams absolutely still have what it takes; they just need to get real momentum going(results wise) and keep building on it. If they put a competitive car together this year, and Nico drives the wheels off it, there's every chance they could start seriously bouncing back.

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horror donkey Wrote:
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> maybe he is 65 but he looks like he will fall
> apart anytime soon
>
> rosberg nico is crap
>
> nakajima (the name excapes me) is crap
>
> they are both 2nd generation drivers, they both
> suck big time because their daddys spoiled them
>
> PH was never great, that other guy was (the name
> excapes me ) who was always drinking tea, what is
> his name dernie? or something
>
> anyway they are going down for sure

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I think I agree with the most part on what people say, the success of before will probably never be back, but I do think winning a championship in the not too distant future is possible. But I do think Rosberg would be best for the job imo. He seems perfect for Williams, the way Lewis is for Mclaren. I do want Nico to have a good car, worthy of his talent and I know Williams could provide that but I am worried it would be all be too late and at a time when he'll be at another team.

The start of season form for the last few years has been pretty good, and only really dropped off throughout the season, I think 07 being difficult to judge, the car was good in different phases of the season.

One thing does seem certain. To get back to the top they do need a solid backer. The FI-Mclaren relationship looks to be a very good one, and one I think could cause some problems to the tail enders because FI is going to be much more of a force by the looks of it !!!

I think the chances of being BMW backed are quite low, and though Toyota isnt the strongest engine I do think its probably the best chance for a better cash injection and more technical support. Though when the deal was announced I got the feeling Toyota would be giving them an engine but Williams would be the one giving the technical help.

I dont think Williams have a problem with its drivers atm, Nico is everybit as quick as Lewis (imo) and Nakajima isnt far off, and certainly a good racer who just needs to calm it a little. I think this season will show great improvment from both drivers who last season didnt have the best of times!!! If the car is as good as it appears I do expect the odd podium here and there. But yeah I do think Toyota and Williams needed to strengthen their partnership and work alot more closley together.

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

I'm impressed by Williams' innovative approach with their latest car. In winter testing they had a flywheel-based KERS on the car, which I think they've persevered with. Although they won't be running it in the first few races, it could be a big help to them when it's introduced.

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