comment on brazil incident by itv-f1

Juan Pablo Montoya has every right to feel aggrieved about his clash with Michael Schumacher in Brazil.

Montoya has found himself unusually short of allies since the incident. Most pundits and fans are blaming him. They argue that the Colombian should have expected Schumacher to defend his position and therefore backed off.

But at the end of a fortnight in which new FIA punishments for dangerous driving have hogged the headlines, it is no wonder the Williams man is feeling a little lost.

His unfair penalty in Malaysia and the new FIA rule change meant that Montoya was on his best behaviour at Interlagos. How else are you going to explain the space he gave Schumacher in the first three corners?

Faced with the prospect of starting at Imola from outside the top 10 Montoya was scrupulously fair, almost to the point of accommodating. And, after being penalised for merely holding his line at Sepang, who can blame him?

Having given Schumacher space in Interlagos




LS's Tip of the week
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right on the spot
Shumy will get what he wants
he will louse the batle of big heads... Monty's speed and determination will stop shumy of ruining the great sport that formula 1 is.



Senna the Man... the King... the God!

After Melbourne, Schuey grumbled that Jarno Trulli had not been "appropriate" in aggressively defending his position. What Michael did at Interlagos was ten times worse.

This makes me wonder wether this guy actually watched the races in Australia and Brazil. Those two incidents cannot be related in any way! 10 times worse? This is a tragic case of someone who is desperate for JPM to beat MS, and when it doesn't happen, he says silly things like this. It was the fourth corner, a frantic dash, anything could happen, and Schumi made a perfectly fair defence of his line into the corner. In Melbourne, the race had settles down, Trulli was running fantastically, but Michael was clearly faster and going for the inside, the Renault did violently chop across him on several occasions, which may have been inappropriate. To say MS's move at Brazil is worse is a joke.

In taking on Montoya, though, Schuey may yet have bitten off more than he can chew

This one made me laugh more than anything else. Now is it Schumacher taking on Montoya, or Montoya taking on Schumacher? Hmmmm. And is it Montoya that's bitten off more than he can chew? No, of course not, after all, Montoya has just won four world titles and 55 GP, and has much more experience than Schumi. Schumacher's just the new-boy on the scene who thinks his big enough to take on Montoya...

Since bursting on to the F1 scene, Montoya has demonstrated time and again that he will not duck a scrap.

Err.... yes, that's generally the point. Because his little demonstrations time and again end up in the gravel or in the pits for a new wing.

On the next occasion he starts from pole he will cut straight across the track in true Schumacher style.

Yes, just like he was going to do in Brazil....




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Alex, i like shumy stile of driving too, but the politics behaind him i don't, to say at least, shumy is one of the greats but you must admit that monty is doing to shumy, what shumy was doing in early life in f1, and if you realy want what senna did to prost.
shumy has met him self but now not in the red and white car, but in the blue and white.



Senna the Man... the King... the God!

"Err.... yes, that's generally the point. Because his little demonstrations time and again end up in the gravel or in the pits for a new wing."

And whose fault is that? MS understeers into him and then cuts across him. Yes, JPM could have avoided the Interlagos incident but MS's chop should not be tolerated.

The double standard aggrevates me so much.

Chris J

It makes no sense arguing against M$. Alex would defend him even we had a picture of him with a smoking gun still in his hand and JPM lying shot at his feet.

(and I expect that either Boba LS, Zcott or me will soon find such a picture)

---

REHAB IS FOR QUITTERS

It makes no sense arguing against M$. Alex would defend him even we had a picture of him with a smoking gun still in his hand and JPM lying shot at his feet.

Doesn't that tell you something? I always defend him because a) he's usually not in the wrong anyway, and b) there is usually a very strong argument for him.

Equally, I might say there's no point in trying to defend him, because you lot will always find something to criticise him about. Unfortunately these arguments inevitably end up going in circles, because an agreement will never be made. And that shouldn't really be a surprise.




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its amazing these opinions only came out after jpm moaned after the race,i didn't see anything wrong in ms move,he is allowed to make one move and he did end of story,did you all honestly think at the time ms did something wrong i don't think so just sour grapes from montaya all hype,is this the same montoya shumi lapped at hungary think so.
and for senna the man king god and all that,for someones who praises him you can never criricise ms senna was far worse

Doesn't that tell you something? I always defend him because a) he's usually not in the wrong anyway, and b) there is usually a very strong argument for him.



ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!






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Yo Sup

"Watch the incident again and it is clear Schuey veered violently across the track"

LOL! Wonder where i have seen that before???




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Jesus may be able to heal the sick and bring the dead back to life, but he can't do shît for low fps

I can't believe I am defending M$... @!#$! Oh well, here goes...

As far as I know it is not illegal to veer off to the other side of the track in the blink of an eye. It is illegal if you do it repeatively as a defence against someone who is trying to overtake. It is also illegal if you do it while someone is along side you. With the passage of time this one has become rather debatable since M$ does it all the time at race starts. But anyway, I did not see any of these things happening at the GP. I am sorry but I really didn't. As far as my eyes could see from the rear view of M$' car, JPM was behind him, when he made the chop. And since M$ did stay on his trajectory after the move was completed, it was legal...

But that is not the whole story. It gets even worse. First of all, it is pretty stupid to try to win the race on lap 1. M$ exploited a driving error to get the lead, and JPM try to overtake. There is a big difference in the sensiblity and the risk in the two moves. IMHO, there was no rush. JPM could have waited a few laps. Secondly, JPM knows that the defender of a position has the right to change his position once. Thus he also should have known that this option was open for M$ when he decided to launch his attack. And if he had thought about that, he could have started with a feint and then the real attack. Had M$ jumped on the feint he would have been wide open for the plan to continue. If he had not, JPM could have converted the feint into the real attack. One minute you are in the left mirror and the next your are in the right...

Come on, how many times have we seen this done in the course of the last 20 GP's? 20 times? 30? maybe even 50 or more? We see it all the time. The only thing it takes is that the attacker keeps his head cool and decides to do it. And that was JPM forgot to do. Not that I am blaming him. It is really annoying to lose the lead on lap 1.

So, while the move is perfectly legal, you might say that making the chop with less than a carslength to spare between them, is not exactly helping your fellow racer to read the pace of your moves. But nothing in the rules says that you have to do so. That was JPM's personal decision, based on the bitter experience that he cannot trust the judgements of the FIA officials to be fair and just. M$ was driving (for once, one might say) in accordance the official rules. This is the real problem. The FIA, because they have through questionable actions in the past, allowed drivers to lose faith in their ability to handle the authority they have been given. JPM was driving under a different a new set of rules... Not the 10 position punishment rules, but "the rules that ensure that I do not give the FIA an excuse to f*ck up and punish wrongly".

So, JPM (literally!!) went out of his way to make sure that M$ had enough "room" on the straight and turn 1, 2 and 3 and to telegraph his moves so M$ could take them into his calculations. Remember that M$ said at the post race press conference that he could see that JPM braked to late, and he therefore thought that he would be coming back in the defence at turn 2? That is pretty much information to read while you are braking at turn 1 at Interlagos, even for a Schumacher. JPM helped him read the pace of his moves and kept the trajectorys clear and unobstructed, so both could be sure that they wouldn't repeat the Sepang incident. And M$' fine and professional racing in turn 1, 2 and 3 would seem to enforce JPM's idea that M$ was thinking along the lines as he was. But why should he? M$ is not on the track to do favours. He gets paid to win. And he wants to win, regardless of the paycheck. This "chop" is not under the juristiction of the rules, but of the sportsmanship code of the racers involved.

Now if we take into consideration that the FIA actually regret the Sepang ruling, and they want to regain their trust and authority with the drivers, then the only reasonable solution is, no! the only way to do that is to enforce the rules as they are. So at the most, if FIA should have done something that was in accordance with the rules, they could have waved a black and white flag divided diagonally into black and white halves at M$. And that is it! I can really understand why JPM is frustrated, since the ruling to do nothing against M$' chop is a double standard when it is compared to the Sepang ruling. But it is not a double standard when it is compared to the real rules. And that, from his point of view, means that JPM "pays" again AND that he was tricked by M$. You can discuss if the move by M$ was fair or not. JPM thinks that M$ should have raced like he was, and hence the move was unfair. And believe it or not, I actually disagree with this. I think that it was fair. Nothing seems to indicate that they had a prior agreement to race along the lines of JPM's thinking...

I stand firmly by the opinion that any further actions taken by the FIA against M$ would have been against the rules. And after the criticism from Melbourne and Sepang, it is damn nice to see the FIA actually making an effort to enforce the rules as they ARE! And I cannot see how they could have approached the task of treating JPM fairly in accordance with the rules after Sepang, if they had done anything else. Giving a driver an undeserved advantage by ruling wrongly against his rival is also unfair. Two wrongs they only make the score even, they don't make right!

It feels bad that JPM has to be the constant victim of the FIA botch ups of Melbourne and Sepang, but if this ends the matter, I say: SO MUCH FOR THE BETTER! Having every driver judged equally according to the official rules from now on would be a very nice thing indeed. And that can't start with a rule violation against M$, because the FIA have been sloppy on the button in the 2 previous races.

Of course the tyre farce does cast some doubts upon whether or not this is the trail of thought the FIA officials were thinking in... I sincerely hope it was. But one never knows. Maybe JPM will have to pay more than 2 times for the incompetence of the FIA.



P.S. You have no idea how much I hated writing this.

P.P.S. Stop laughing Alex!

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

P.P.S. Stop laughing Alex!

I'm not laughing at all... I'm just grinning insanely

P.S. You have no idea how much I hated writing this.

You shouldn't have hated it. It was a masterpiece. If you wanted to be fair yourself, then you did the right thing. And I'm going to say thanks. Of course I'm going to say that, however. But Mark was right earlier in stating that the arguments only arose once JPM had made that statement, which effectively handed the anti-Schumists an excuse. Before then, it was a grudging 'OK, MS did deserve the victory'. Now don't get me wrong I'm not saying anybody contradicted themselves or anything, it was just interesting to see how the suspicion gradually rose once JPM had made his little outburst, and all the opinions in here subtly changed.




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Yeah, you seem to be pretty right about the "suspicion development". I really dunno what JPM has said, other than he though M$ wasn't a nice guy. Of course there was the "I want revenge" article, but I hope that the truth value of that, was in the fact that it was published on the 1st of april. If it really is true, then he has lost the battle for the championship already.

As to why I hated writing the post, I am an anti-schumist in the sense that I want to see someone else take the poles and wins. And I don't like taking his side in an argument either. On the other hand I like to discuss the racing. And since M$ is in the dead center of most it, I can't really expect a free and open minded discussion if I do not stand up for what I think is right, regardless of what that might say about those teams and drivers that enjoy my loyalty.

Watching great racing is wonderful. And it gets better if you can share that experience with someone. But you can only share with people if they respect your opinions. And that means you have to respect their opinions too. No thanks needed Alex. I was just conducting business as usual. Or at least the way I think it ought to be...

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

Wow, what a read. All I can say is JOM screwed up the first corners so he couldn't push MS out but he tried in corner 2. MS was better and ended up in the front. In turn 4, JPM was stupid to try and pass him and ended up hitting him resulting in his wing loss.

MS did nothing wrong in corner 4.

As for the start, MS always cuts in front of #2 and stops him like that, JPM tried that in Brazil but he couldn't even manage to get in front of him. He had to settle for almost in front. Another reason it will be a long time before JPM wins anything.

Alex, we are it seems the only 2 people defending MS against the Bullshit that JPM pulls.

As for Malasyia, JPM DID NOT give MS enough room. If you have seen ALL the replays, you get to see 1 video where MS's righht front tire is touching the grass which means JPM was pushing him there. This is why he was given a penalty. And for Brazil, MS did nothing wrong so he didn't get one.


All you JPM fans get off your high horses and be open minded. I have no problems with JPM if he races fair which is not the case. Take a look back at last yrs races and see everytime JPM passed MS and check to see if it is a clean pass, 99% of the time it wasn't, he always tried cutting MS off to the point he had MS in the dirt.


END RANT



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Yo Sup

"On the next occasion he starts from pole he will cut straight across the track in true Schumacher style.

Yes, just like he was going to do in Brazil...."

sounds like your critisizing him there Alex. So double standards. If your names not Micheal Schumacher then rules change. Well at least you and the FIA agree on something!!

"I have no problems with JPM if he races fair which is not the case."

Right, but your ok with Schumacher driving dirty?

"he always tried cutting MS off to the point he had MS in the dirt."

So? France 99, where MS mid-corner, tured into DC. Then later on DC got passed (in a simply brilliant move) and then done the same thing to MS. Did MS moan bout it? No, he didnt cos he knew it was perfectly fair to do that and he does it too. So if MS is ok with it you cant attack JPM for doing the same as MS does

Doube standards again.........

"First of all, it is pretty stupid to try to win the race on lap 1."

Not really, it isnt anymore. How many times have we seen cars stuck behind each other? Ralf couldnt pass MS in brazil if we had another 50laps!! Its becoming harder and harder to pass and i think any passing move you can get, take it.

"Of course the tyre farce does cast some doubts upon whether or not this is the trail of thought the FIA officials were thinking in"

em, if the FIA is so bloody brilliant why did it take a complaint from the Willaims team until the FIA took away the tyres? FFS!! How obviouse can it get!!!

What bout MS going over the white line in warm-up in Sepang? Ralf did it and got a peantly and MS does it and they say "its not important cos its in warm-up". No, its not important, but it was so fuckin important when Mika did it USA 2001 and got moved down the gird isnt it!! Why was MS allowed to do pracitice starts in the warm-up when everyone knows that they are illegal!? And when asked bout this MS denys it but the rev counter/speedo clearly showed him doing illegal practice starts.........

double standards here again....

"Another reason it will be a long time before JPM wins anything."

em, hes already won Merlin, get the facts right.....

"JPM DID NOT give MS enough room"

im about to apply db-standards here too. If this is the case why was it not the case erez 97 when JV was on the grass? eh? So when JV is being driven into its ok, but when MS is being driven into the driver doing so must be punished unfairly. Answer that one.

If you want to agrue there was not enough room, there is 2 threads further down you can do it in. And when you see the proof there you wont say it anymore




Racing Is Life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting
Jesus may be able to heal the sick and bring the dead back to life, but he can't do shît for low fps

Yo Sup

"Before then, it was a grudging 'OK, MS did deserve the victory'"

actually i have never said that, and i have said the exact opposite. I think Ralf deserved the victory more than MS did.




Racing Is Life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting
Jesus may be able to heal the sick and bring the dead back to life, but he can't do shît for low fps

I agree with Lost Prophet mostly, except for one point;

"If this is the case why was it not the case erez 97 when JV was on the grass? eh? So when JV is being driven into its ok, but when MS is being driven into the driver doing so must be punished unfairly. Answer that one."

That isnt relevant. JV chose to overtake MS there, and he came from a long way back. JV is my favourite driver, but he chose to make that move.
He was faster that day and could have waited a little longer, MS did not force him onto the grass.

Chris J

but it was so fuckin important when Mika did it USA 2001 and got moved down the gird isnt it!!

Hakkinen overtook 4 or 5 stationary cars which were waiting by the red light. It's a totaly unrelated incident.

sounds like your critisizing him there Alex. So double standards.

I don't see what you mean...? What I was saying was that every JPM fan comes out with all this crap like "oh JPM won't take any of that chopping crap from Schumacher, and if JPM is on pole, then he'll just do the same thing to Schumi" - which he obviously didn't at Brazil.

And what's all this crap about JPM leaving room for Schumacher in turns two and three in Brazil? The guy didn't have any frigging choice! Schumacher was there and Montoya had to give him room. He then drove like a rookie and tried to go for a gap that wasn't there.




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A gap that caused him to hit MS and lose his front wing in turn losing the race. This is typical behaviour from JPM and is why he will never win a championship.



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Yo Sup

"Hakkinen overtook 4 or 5 stationary cars which were waiting by the red light. It's a totaly unrelated incident"

no, it was done in warm-up and the FIA said he had to be punished. MS went over the whiteline in warm-up (like Ralf did and he got in trouble) and the FIA come up with some bullshit bout how MS wont be in trouble cos its warm-up

He broke the same rule as Ralf- and wasnt punished
He borke it at the same time as Mika - and wasnt punished

"The guy didn't have any frigging choice! Schumacher was there and Montoya had to give him room."

no, he did have a choice. Just like MS did at Jerez 97. JPM could have drove into him but he didnt.




Racing Is Life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting
Jesus may be able to heal the sick and bring the dead back to life, but he can't do shît for low fps