Carbon Fiber bonding?

Not sure if this place is best to ask but ill for it anyway.

The transmissions and cases today are composite. But how have the teams bonded the suspension arms to the casing? And the the gearbox to the engine which is aluminium. You cant just bolt it on can you? Because the engine is taking the stress's of the gearbox aswell as the rear suspension and forces from the wing.

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

a combination of araldite and duct tape is used

Sim

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All Hail The New York Giants - Winners of Superbowl XXI, XXV and XLII!

"I'd love to know what goes on in that crazy head of yours sometimes, Sim..." - Locke Cole

I think the suspension are bolted internally to the chassis. Then they pass through the side of the chassis to the wheels which is what you see. I think they're attached the floor of the chassis.

I think. And I'm sure it's spelled "fibre" in this instance.

As a composite engineer in Aerospace I would assume the following:

The gearbox and the engine will have flat faces that are placed against eachother. In this position it is standard procedure to bold the parts together (from the inside of the gearbox).

As for the suspension arms: There are probably metal inserts included in the composite part. This way the stresses will be loaded in a healthy way to the gearbox.
The same will be the case for the wishbone and the spring: The hinge and the static end of the spring will be connected to a metal insert that is included in the gearbox.

For the front something similar will be the case. Although the wishbone will protrude through the monocoque.

Hope this will give you an idea about the possible solutions that the teams have opted for.

Mark



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2008 08:29PM by marky.

chet Wrote:
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> The transmissions and cases today are composite.
> But how have the teams bonded the suspension arms
> to the casing? And the the gearbox to the engine
> which is aluminium. You cant just bolt it on can
> you? Because the engine is taking the stress's of
> the gearbox aswell as the rear suspension and
> forces from the wing.

Frankly I don't know, as my working with carbon fibre was limited to a car designed to take the weight of an 8-stone bloke, and that was about it. :D

I do know that on the Lotus 49 though (the first car with the engine as a stressed member, as today), that the engine was mounted to the chassis using just 2 bolts, so obviously they can take a bit of punishment. I'd imagine it's 4 bolts today as it's got to be much more rigid, surely.

I'll get my Ferrari blue-prints out.

//edit: I assume what Marky posted there about inserts is what I had a feeling about - a sort of double-ended washer with the centre moulded into the CF itself. Kind of like a cotton-reel, a bit like this:





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2008 08:46PM by gav.

Ahh!

I wanted to know because today I did abit about composites as a treat to us (because it was our last lecture for the term) and it was 4th year masters so some of it was abit of in and out ! Mainly we touched on basic properties and did abit about Metal Matrix Composites, Polymer Matrix Composites and Ceramic Matrix Composites. Then just about different structures, like laminar, sandwiched and honeycomb.

Nothing much was mentioned on bonding, and thats what i really wanted to know and heard the process was quite something!

But thanks for the reply :D. Its a pretty insteresting thing to read about!

And Gav, just two bolts? quite a scary thought lol.

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

chet Wrote:
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> And Gav, just two bolts? quite a scary thought
> lol.

To be fair, they could have been 14 foot thick for all I know. I suppose I better go research it, saying as it's an era I love, and obviously the most successful F1 engine by miles.

Regarding carbon fibre I have little knowledge of it - what I've posted is based entirely on conjecture on my part and following on from what Marky posted. My very limited use of it was restricted to designing a tubular 'chassis' which we didn't build - we had a local company which we persuaded to built it for us for free (well, for sponsorship only). I've not worked with it personally, and there's nothing in common really. Even if there was composites have come along so far since then (over 11 years now) that what little there may have been in common will have been made well and truly redundant now.

OK, I lied - there were 4 bolts apparently. Makes it rather more fathomable.

a nice article about engines, but scroll down to the cutaway diagram of the Renault F1 car near the bottom, and look at the area of the number 6, you can clearly see the metal parts attached to the the CF suspension arms, which bolt onto the engine/gearbox: Click

you can clearly see the metal bits on the front suspension arms near the Hanjin logo on the front-right on this Renault:



or the front-left top arm on this Renault:



on on this McLaren left and right top arms:



but nowadays they have CF shrouds/covers to hide those bits on the front suspension, but there's a metal bit at both ends.

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RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2008 10:25PM by Muks_C.

gav Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> chet Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > And Gav, just two bolts? quite a scary thought
> > lol.
>
> To be fair, they could have been 14 foot thick for
> all I know. I suppose I better go research it,
> saying as it's an era I love, and obviously the
> most successful F1 engine by miles.
>
> Regarding carbon fibre I have little knowledge of
> it - what I've posted is based entirely on
> conjecture on my part and following on from what
> Marky posted. My very limited use of it was
> restricted to designing a tubular 'chassis' which
> we didn't build - we had a local company which we
> persuaded to built it for us for free (well, for
> sponsorship only). I've not worked with it
> personally, and there's nothing in common really.
> Even if there was composites have come along so
> far since then (over 11 years now) that what
> little there may have been in common will have
> been made well and truly redundant now.
>
> OK, I lied - there were 4 bolts apparently. Makes
> it rather more fathomable.

Is it the Ford DFV??

Do you mind if i ask what the chassis was for? sounds like a pretty fun thing to do.

I think what else is interesting about composites is there not always lighter and stronger, and one of the major uses is marketing because they look good, like CF. Also got told about a funny story, someone bought a fully CF bike for a few grand. Took it out and you know those steps to get over fences, is it turnstyles or something?? Well the bike got caught on an edge, and had a big gash down the side. so that was instantly 2grand down the drain lol.

that is a good article. f1 engines are mind-blowing things!

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

chet Wrote:
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> Is it the Ford DFV??

Yeah.

chet Wrote:
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> Do you mind if i ask what the chassis was for?
> sounds like a pretty fun thing to do.

Shell Mileage Marathon while I was still at school. Great fun. Shame there were full works efforts from the likes of Honda though. :D

chet Wrote:
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> Took it out and you know those steps to get over
> fences, is it turnstyles or something??

Just stiles. Turnstiles are what you get in shop-doorways and stations and things.

okay seeing as i'm feeling helpful, here ya go

a pic of the Spyker F1 gearbox and associated suspension mounts

[simonsteele.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk]

Sim

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All Hail The New York Giants - Winners of Superbowl XXI, XXV and XLII!

"I'd love to know what goes on in that crazy head of yours sometimes, Sim..." - Locke Cole

Nigel "Sim" Stepney...

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RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael

Thanks, a much nicer answer than your first post

@Shell Mileage Marathon - awesome! is like the solar powered thing??

and muks, the shrouds, are they not Kevlar? Im pretty sure they are. but yeah quite a difference from the renault lol, but yeah about that. Isnt it logical to fit those shrouds anyway... and again isnt it logical to have aerodynamically shapped wishbones? I just dont understand how long it took for them to be developed.

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

chet Wrote:
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> @Shell Mileage Marathon - awesome! is like the
> solar powered thing??

Well it wasn't - might have changed since. It was pretty much what it sounds like - making a car aimed purely at getting as far as you can on fuel. Speed doesn't matter. Was held at Silverstone back then.

Oh that haha.
How did you do if you remember? And do you still have pictures of the car?

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

For some extra info on my first post:
I was only talking about the attachments/hinges ON the gearbox and the monocoque.

As the pictures show you need to have inserts/brackets also on the suspension arms to transfer the stresses from the carbon fibre suspension arms to the hinges on the monocoque and the gearbox.

BTW:
fibre is UK English
fiber is US English
Just test it in MS Word

Mark

chet Wrote:
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> Oh that haha.
> How did you do if you remember? And do you still
> have pictures of the car?

Don't know of any photos anywhere (results - just in the top 20 I think (of 50 or so) - we had a bit of a crap engine - kind of the most important part), but I think I've still got the original designs up in the top of my wardrobe. :D

5th Gear did a feature about that Mileage Marathon a couple of years ago. IIRC, it was at Rockingham and they had a set quantity of fuel (might have been 1 litre or 1 gallon or something).

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RIP Jules, never to be forgotten. #KeepFightingMichael

Muks_C Wrote:
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> Nigel "Sim" Stepney...

:P

i also have a pic of teh porsche rs spyder damper layout and Audi R10 CFD data amongst other things lol :p

Sim

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All Hail The New York Giants - Winners of Superbowl XXI, XXV and XLII!

"I'd love to know what goes on in that crazy head of yours sometimes, Sim..." - Locke Cole