Renault(Sorry, Lotus) drivers for 2012
Posted by EC83
vesuvius Wrote:
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> 2009 massa drove very well indeed but Kimi was
> right there with him, yes points say 22-10 but
> Kimi`s points didn`t reflect his true speed at
> all. Kimi outqualified Massa 6-4 and in those
> races he was usually either in front or right
> behind massa.Kimi also suffered a lot more
> tactical problems from the team, example malaysia
> race and qualifying at barcelona.
>
> massa on the other hand got huge advantage from
> the tactics...when he qualified for example 11th
> and kimi 9th with half a second faster time but
> massa got a chance to fill his car with fuel and
> kimi not so there was a huge advantage.
>
> Also to claim Massa would have done better job at
> hungary than Kimi is laughable, when he was
> already miles slower during the qualifying when he
> had that horrible accident, he was out of top ten
> and couldn`t have beaten kimi during the race.
>
> don`t get me wrong, I think massa was as good as
> Kimi during their time together but in my view it
> was mainly due because Kimi didn`t do as well as
> he did at mclaren, his driving was like massa`s
> today...far from his true potential.
Massa also had issues though, such as a failure at China whilst running 3rd and false fuel alarm at Barcelona costing him 2 places. Yes, Kimi probably deserved to be closer to Massa than what it was, but I don't think he deserved to be ahead necessarily.
Massa did qualify for Q3 at Hungary, and was only 2 tenths behind Kimi in Q2. As you said, Massa was generally better in the races than in qualifying, so I think he would've been close to Kimi in the race.
EC83 Wrote:
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> SchueyFan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Well you can't empirically prove a loss of
> > motivation though.
>
> No, but you can note obvious signs of it which
> couldn't really be signs of anything else. I also
> remember Kimi saying in an interview early on in
> his career that he wanted to win the Championship,
> but only once, and that he'd probably stop soon
> after he'd won it if he ever did. Again, his loss
> of form in 2008 correlates exactly with this
> prediction.
Fair enough, but as I said previously, you can also correlate Massa's improvement every year from 2002-2009 that he improved and beat Kimi fair and square. It was probably a mix of both.
> Yes it does. Each of them(except maybe Kimi) were
> doing arguably better than Massa was at that
> point, considering their circumstances. Alonso and
> Lewis had terrible cars and Vettel was on a steep
> learning curve with a new team(and still pretty
> inexperienced in F1 too at that point), although
> he still pulled off a performance in China which
> was better than anything Massa managed that
> season. Rubens also had times(like in Barcelona)
> when he outshone anything Massa was doing.
The Ferrari was an awful car as well!
Lewis had a terrible car also, but also made mistakes when he had a decent chance of a good result, such as China and Monaco. His attitude was awful, such as asking the team whether it was worth retiring the car in Germany, and complaining about the handling at Turkey over team radio. That's not to mention his role in liegate. Compare his performance relative to Kovalainen in the first half to the second half of the season, and you will see that Lewis didn't have a great start to the year when the car was poor.
I find using Barcelona an odd example to justify Barrichello. Barrichello had a decent race, but Massa set a fastest lap than both Red Bulls in a car that had previously scored 3 points to Red Bull's 27.5, and held off Vettel for most of the race. I don't think you can consider Barrichello as a Top 3 driver for the start of 2009 when he was down 6-3 in qualifying and 8-1 in the races to his team-mate (he did improve in the 2nd half of the year, of course). Button is a fast driver, but he's no god.
Fair point in regards to Vettel, I always believe you should include some context in such a ranking. But still, he made a series of costly mistakes and that must be taken into consideration. In the 2nd half of the year, he was probably the best driver in the field.
X (@ed24f1)
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> 2009 massa drove very well indeed but Kimi was
> right there with him, yes points say 22-10 but
> Kimi`s points didn`t reflect his true speed at
> all. Kimi outqualified Massa 6-4 and in those
> races he was usually either in front or right
> behind massa.Kimi also suffered a lot more
> tactical problems from the team, example malaysia
> race and qualifying at barcelona.
>
> massa on the other hand got huge advantage from
> the tactics...when he qualified for example 11th
> and kimi 9th with half a second faster time but
> massa got a chance to fill his car with fuel and
> kimi not so there was a huge advantage.
>
> Also to claim Massa would have done better job at
> hungary than Kimi is laughable, when he was
> already miles slower during the qualifying when he
> had that horrible accident, he was out of top ten
> and couldn`t have beaten kimi during the race.
>
> don`t get me wrong, I think massa was as good as
> Kimi during their time together but in my view it
> was mainly due because Kimi didn`t do as well as
> he did at mclaren, his driving was like massa`s
> today...far from his true potential.
Massa also had issues though, such as a failure at China whilst running 3rd and false fuel alarm at Barcelona costing him 2 places. Yes, Kimi probably deserved to be closer to Massa than what it was, but I don't think he deserved to be ahead necessarily.
Massa did qualify for Q3 at Hungary, and was only 2 tenths behind Kimi in Q2. As you said, Massa was generally better in the races than in qualifying, so I think he would've been close to Kimi in the race.
EC83 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SchueyFan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Well you can't empirically prove a loss of
> > motivation though.
>
> No, but you can note obvious signs of it which
> couldn't really be signs of anything else. I also
> remember Kimi saying in an interview early on in
> his career that he wanted to win the Championship,
> but only once, and that he'd probably stop soon
> after he'd won it if he ever did. Again, his loss
> of form in 2008 correlates exactly with this
> prediction.
Fair enough, but as I said previously, you can also correlate Massa's improvement every year from 2002-2009 that he improved and beat Kimi fair and square. It was probably a mix of both.
> Yes it does. Each of them(except maybe Kimi) were
> doing arguably better than Massa was at that
> point, considering their circumstances. Alonso and
> Lewis had terrible cars and Vettel was on a steep
> learning curve with a new team(and still pretty
> inexperienced in F1 too at that point), although
> he still pulled off a performance in China which
> was better than anything Massa managed that
> season. Rubens also had times(like in Barcelona)
> when he outshone anything Massa was doing.
The Ferrari was an awful car as well!
Lewis had a terrible car also, but also made mistakes when he had a decent chance of a good result, such as China and Monaco. His attitude was awful, such as asking the team whether it was worth retiring the car in Germany, and complaining about the handling at Turkey over team radio. That's not to mention his role in liegate. Compare his performance relative to Kovalainen in the first half to the second half of the season, and you will see that Lewis didn't have a great start to the year when the car was poor.
I find using Barcelona an odd example to justify Barrichello. Barrichello had a decent race, but Massa set a fastest lap than both Red Bulls in a car that had previously scored 3 points to Red Bull's 27.5, and held off Vettel for most of the race. I don't think you can consider Barrichello as a Top 3 driver for the start of 2009 when he was down 6-3 in qualifying and 8-1 in the races to his team-mate (he did improve in the 2nd half of the year, of course). Button is a fast driver, but he's no god.
Fair point in regards to Vettel, I always believe you should include some context in such a ranking. But still, he made a series of costly mistakes and that must be taken into consideration. In the 2nd half of the year, he was probably the best driver in the field.
X (@ed24f1)
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