2011 Japanese GP **SPOILERS**

marcl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Was an ok race not really sure why Martin and DC
> thought it was fantastic tbh.
>
> Not sure wtf is going through Lewis head at the
> moment, why take all year to say he cannot see in
> his mirrors. Bit shocked he got away with no
> drive through it was stupid and really dangerous.

That incident was the same as Vettel/Button on lap 1, and the incident between MS/Webber that triggered the safety car for collection of debris. In all cases the attacker (Button, Webber, Massa) put their nose alongside the defender and the defender turned in on them. The only difference was that in the Button/Vettel incident, Button decided to go on the grass and back off. Neither Massa nor Webber did that, and that is why they experienced a collision and took damage when Button didn't.

Massa is off whining again despite his proclamation a few days ago, that it was over and incidents like that should be dealt with and left on the track. You don't see Webber and MS arguing about their incident despite it triggering the safety car. It wasn't even investigated by the stewards.

And regarding the mirror excuse, Vettel is saying the same thing about squeezing Button. If it is good enough for the newly crowned World Champion, it should be good enough for a former WDC (like Lewis) too.
[www.autosport.com]

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

When Vettel says he didn't see Button I believe. There is no doubt he was looking for Button but whether or not he saw is another matter. for that reason, and that reason alone Vettel should have perhaps left more room.

But these things happen on race starts all the time. The same thing happened with Button at Valencia in 2009 with Vettel too but these things happen at the start. Had Button been in that position in the race, going to overtake, then I am confident that Vettel would not have moved over like that.

On the rest, well what can I say. My favourite track, my favourite driver. This is a trophy I wanted Button to have as much as Monaco and im glad he got it by beating Vettel, and Alonso. RBR took a conservative strategy maybe, but either way, Button was within a second of Vettel each time he pitted. I do not think Vettel or RBR could have done anything else to beat Button. Truth is, they lost fair and square and to use the excuse of a championship is poor. Vettel did everything he could to win but he and RBR were out performed by Button AND Alonso.

Both Button, and Alonso had superior quality tyres at the end of their stints and it showed.

Still well done to Vettel. Best driver of the year by a long way and deserves the 2nd title. Perhaps the most well liked champion of recent years too, so thats good for F1.

Michael Schumacher was another stand out performance for me. He beat a Ferrari and quite frankly that Mercedes should be nowhere near! Alonso best represented how awful Massa is this year.

About Lewis, well the team stuffed his race up as much as he did imo. It sounded like they adjusted his setup to compensate for the puncture when he came to change his tyres :s! The race though was a good summation of Lewis. Saturday he was an almost certain pole, yet Sunday he could not recover. JB on the other hand usually turns bad qualifying/races around by the end of the day. Lewis just got worse and worse.

Overal I enjoyed the race, obviously! Probably my favourite of the year, helped most by the fact that I was genuinely worried Alonso would nab it at the end. Of all the drivers I would hate to see behind me, it would be Alonso!

But another fastest lap for Button, I think its less about the car, and more about confidence with him right now, I just hope he can maintain this till the end because it will do alot for him next year. Also nice to see just how much that win meant to Jessica! Im sure after Kobayashi the driver the Japanese wanted to win, would have been Button. As John said himself, Jenson's heart is in Japan and the fans know this. From 2003 he was pretty much adored by the Japanese, mainly thanks to Taku, and Honda!

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

chet Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> About Lewis, well the team stuffed his race up as
> much as he did imo. It sounded like they adjusted
> his setup to compensate for the puncture when he
> came to change his tyres :s! The race though was a
> good summation of Lewis. Saturday he was an almost
> certain pole, yet Sunday he could not recover. JB
> on the other hand usually turns bad
> qualifying/races around by the end of the day.
> Lewis just got worse and worse.

The team botched his pole by sending him out too late. But MS and Webber got that wrong too, so I guess that was a bit in the cards for Suzuka. The slow puncture wasn't Lewis' fault, and why the hell the team adjusted his wings when he got his tyres changed is simply incomprehensible. McLaren have had a habit of @#$%& up the qualifying and races of both their drivers these last years. I think Lewis did a grand effort to get what he got out of that situation. While it might not have been brilliant, no other driver would have been considered "poor" for a salvage drive like that.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

For one of the mid-field drivers yeah, but for a driver of Hamilton's calibre I'd still have expected more. The puncture was unfortunate but it didn't loose him the 24.2 seconds he finished behind Button by. He was still right in the thick of it after the 1st round of pitstops with everything to play for. Given the relative strength of his opening laps I'd have expected him to at least be on the podium.

I don't know if the puncture caused damage to his car, though I think it unlikely. He was the only one who could live with Vettel's pace in the opening laps. Maybe he lost a bit of bodywork in his ding with Massa, maybe that affLected the areo balance but I don't know.

By Hamilton's own standards thia was a mediocre performance, I'm not saying he should won the race but he should have been within a couple of seconds of Vettel and Alonso.

I don't think his head is in the right place at the moment, there were moments where he was practically day dreaming, he needs a holiday to refresh himself and get back to being the Lewis we all know.

That is one of the things I find most peculiar about those people that hammer Lewis this season. So much talk about him being poor and doing badly, yet people having nothing but the highest, I'd say almost abusive, expectations for him. I find it most contradictory, that people on the one hand say he is bad and on the other expect stellar performances. Both cannot be right at the same time. Either you think he is bad, and expect him to be produce bad results, or you think he is good and expect him to produce good results. Mixing it up is just tabloid reasoning.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2011 09:09PM by Morbid.

Not at all. I think he's a exceptional driver and I'm not bashing him at all, I just think he's capable of far more than he showed at Suzuka. Sooner or later It'll click again, he'll win an epic race and everyone will go "wow".

That's where that awful word 'potential' comes in.

I think many of us did expect an era of near-domination from him after his debut season. Where Vettel is at the moment is where I thought Hamilton would be. Granted he's not always had the car to that, but he's gone the other way - he's far less consistent now than he was back in 2007, and decreasingly so year by year.

He set his own bar very highly from the off. Perhaps it is wrong to have expected him to just carry on from there, but I think most of us thought he'd be further along the road now, whereas in reality he appears to be a worse driver than he was back in 2007 and to an extent 2008.

Maybe his choice of management company suggests what he wants to be - another 'pop star' of sport, and that pressure is having a negative effect on him? I don't know, but for me he should get back to the basics, because at the moment, he looks lost on and off the track, and you have to say quite fragile off it too.

J i m Wrote:
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> For one of the mid-field drivers yeah, but for a
> driver of Hamilton's calibre I'd still have
> expected more. The puncture was unfortunate but it
> didn't loose him the 24.2 seconds he finished
> behind Button by. He was still right in the thick
> of it after the 1st round of pitstops with
> everything to play for. Given the relative
> strength of his opening laps I'd have expected him
> to at least be on the podium.

that's after the safety car... would've been much more than that...

i think it was just a case of Jenson being much stronger, he had a car and he had the drive, Lewis had the speed in qualy and he's usually pushing in the first couple of laps of every race... but here, that might've damaged his tire... when he had the contact with Massa you could see from Massa's car that he had no rear tyres left... i didn't saw his pitstop but i guess the wing adjustment was to reduce oversteer and decrease rear tyre consumption?

gav Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's where that awful word 'potential' comes
> in.
>
> I think many of us did expect an era of
> near-domination from him after his debut season.
> Where Vettel is at the moment is where I thought
> Hamilton would be. Granted he's not always had the
> car to that, but he's gone the other way - he's
> far less consistent now than he was back in 2007,
> and decreasingly so year by year.
>
> He set his own bar very highly from the off.
> Perhaps it is wrong to have expected him to just
> carry on from there, but I think most of us
> thought he'd be further along the road now,
> whereas in reality he appears to be a worse driver
> than he was back in 2007 and to an extent 2008.
>
> Maybe his choice of management company suggests
> what he wants to be - another 'pop star' of sport,
> and that pressure is having a negative effect on
> him? I don't know, but for me he should get back
> to the basics, because at the moment, he looks
> lost on and off the track, and you have to say
> quite fragile off it too.


up until Spa a lot of people where pointing out that Lewis was having a "bad" season, but after Monza, these last couple of races things have been really horrible.. the guy has the speed no doubt, but could he be mentally weaker than we tought he was?

Maybe Monza affected him mentally?, Schumacher is a master in mind games and after the race i remember Whitmarsh saying that Lewis went trough a lot of "provocation and frustration" in that race.. i think that race might've affected him a bit, he was convinced he was going to fight with Vettel or probably win it, instead he spent 26 laps behind the Mercedes who kept playing with him and Jenson, his teammate who's been brilliant this season and is earning more respect than he had before sorted that battle in a few corners...
it seems that the races where he's confident he gets beaten bu his teammate or Jenson just out performs him.. in Monaco and Canada he said he was aiming to win them both, instead Jenson win Canada and he was close in Monaco... in Spa Jenson recovered with a beautiful drive, in Monza the same while Lewis struggled, Singapore Jenson pushed Vettel, and here Jenson won...
maybe he's having the teammate syndrome?

i'm not saying that everything that happens on the track is totally his fault, even if he keeps being a magnet to these avoidable incidents, but maybe everything is affecting him a bit more mentally? and that's why the season for him seems to go downhill the more it progresses?

i really think hamiltons only problem is the big tyre degradation, and the fact that jenson copes so good with it.
just like jensons problem was heating up the bridgestones (which were bullet proof in terms of NON degradation). it is now hamiltons problem to keep those pirellis from degradating. But just look how beautiful job schumacher has done in that area. he was always known to eat his rear tyres and so was the situation in the beggining of this season as well. but since silverstone he has been just incredible. i always used to wonder why is he sooo slower than nico on the softer tyre always and in the same time faster or at least as fast on the harder. and i think he just sets his car to be fully fit for a race trim.
look singapore or nurburgring. schumi started both races behind, but was just slowly eating into rosbergs advantage throughout the race.

i hope if tyres are lewiss problem, he fixes it. because it is sad watching him where he is.

J i m schrieb:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not at all. I think he's a exceptional driver and
> I'm not bashing him at all, I just think he's
> capable of far more than he showed at Suzuka.
> Sooner or later It'll click again, he'll win an
> epic race and everyone will go "wow".

no, he will not. if he keeps driving like he is.

gav Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's where that awful word 'potential' comes
> in.
>
> I think many of us did expect an era of
> near-domination from him after his debut season.
> Where Vettel is at the moment is where I thought
> Hamilton would be. Granted he's not always had the
> car to that, but he's gone the other way - he's
> far less consistent now than he was back in 2007,
> and decreasingly so year by year.
>
> He set his own bar very highly from the off.
> Perhaps it is wrong to have expected him to just
> carry on from there, but I think most of us
> thought he'd be further along the road now,
> whereas in reality he appears to be a worse driver
> than he was back in 2007 and to an extent 2008.
>
> Maybe his choice of management company suggests
> what he wants to be - another 'pop star' of sport,
> and that pressure is having a negative effect on
> him? I don't know, but for me he should get back
> to the basics, because at the moment, he looks
> lost on and off the track, and you have to say
> quite fragile off it too.

Perfectly said.

Aside from the latter half of 2009, Lewis has never been as impressive as he was in 2007.

It's a shame too because he really needs to up there.

Lewis was stuck with Webber and Massa! The two worst performers of the year! I have no doubt that this is only temporary and soon he'll be back to his former self, but whilst he is abit off the pace Jenson is taking huge advantage and has taken the fight to Vettel. Button's second half of the season reminds me of Alonso's in 2010. Collecting podiums, and now the win. For the final 4 races Jenson can win more, in fact I believe he can win all of them but he probably wont.

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

It's all a matter of opinion of course. So in mine, humble as it maybe. I always said that being quick was never going to be enough for Lewis. You have to have that 'racing brain' coupled with the speed. Tipical example of the 'Brawn' withought the 'Brain'. For my part I never thought that Lewis would dominate, my money was always on Vettel having said that I never thought that Lewis would be so bad compared to his debut.
I agree that he set quiet high standards for himself, nothing wrong with that so long as you are as good as what you think you are. In Lewis's case I guess he probably wasn't as good as what he thought.
Kinda reminds me of Amir Khan ....... definately no Muhammad Ali as he proved the first time he got knocked out by a relativly unknown ...... likewise, I'm affraid Lewis is definately no Senna no matter what color his helmet is. He is very, very vulnerable at the moment but maybe humilty will cure him either that or he will blink at thirty and wonder how the hell Vettel won 8 world championships and his one and only, remains lost somewhere in the history of motor racing. I hope it's the former because he has talent and we need people like him in the sport.
I would have been the last person in the world to suggest that Button would be any where near Lewis this year. Well, excuse me, 'My Bad' that guy is a completly born again race car driver. In retro-spect I think that Lewis can learn an awful lot from Jenson as opposed to the other way round and I never thought I'd be saying that.


" Perfection is not a gift ....... it comes with practice."

Member of R.S.C.T Group



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2011 05:18PM by Isaint.

Quote
mitadumapaga
i really think hamiltons only problem is the big tyre degradation, and the fact that jenson copes so good with it.

I'm not too sure on that one. Hamilton's performances aren't worrying me too much, more his erratic behaviour. All drivers have dips in form or don't adapt as well to certain upgrades... but you can't blame his mistakes on the tyres.

Early in the season, Button was seldom getting any advantage out of the tyre. He kept trying to do one less stop than anyone else, but he kept having to admit defeat and either make another stop or fall in behind those who had. From the outside the tyres should have played a bigger role for the McLaren duo, but in reality there are few races where the difference can be attributed to the tyres. Suzuka was one of the few.

Great montage and worthy champion!

____

gav Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's where that awful word 'potential' comes
> in.
>
> I think many of us did expect an era of
> near-domination from him after his debut season.
> Where Vettel is at the moment is where I thought
> Hamilton would be. Granted he's not always had the
> car to that, but he's gone the other way - he's
> far less consistent now than he was back in 2007,
> and decreasingly so year by year.
>
> He set his own bar very highly from the off.
> Perhaps it is wrong to have expected him to just
> carry on from there, but I think most of us
> thought he'd be further along the road now,
> whereas in reality he appears to be a worse driver
> than he was back in 2007 and to an extent 2008.

That is a nice argument, but it doesn't quite cover the bases. There have been other mega-talents in F1, that didn't end up with this kind of treatment. Frentzen would be one, but I think the most obvious comparison would be Kimi Räikkönen.

Kimi has more talent in his little finger, than most Grand Prix drivers have in their entire career. Yet, he never mustered more than 1 championship. He only one it by a single point from Hamilton and Alonso. He would not even have gotten the WDC, if Massa hadn't helped him out. Everybody knows that Kimi's work ethic's are poor. He doesn't want to stay long hours at the factory to help develop the car, or to get his mechanics to bond with him. He wants to party. We have lots of pictures of that. In my mind, the most striking image is him drunk out of his mind, in the gutter, cuddling a blow up dolphin. People even thought it was funny that Johnny Walker dared to sponsor McLaren when Kimi acted up the way he did. We would get the occasional flashes of brilliance here and there, and the rare mind-numbing performance, but after his (or rather during the later) McLaren days his heart was really never in it, and race after race at Ferrari was lack-lustre and dull.

Everybody knows this. It is no secret. The same attitude proved to be costly for him in his rally career. Few (if any in the last couple of decades) had "potential" like Kimi, yet he never really delivered on it. He had the same "fire and brimstone" entry to F1 as Lewis, and had the same decline of form over time. But he never did catch the hate and spite that Hamilton does. We all know that whenever he was interviewed, it was like talking to a robot, so I doubt it was Kimi's camera "charm" that prevented this.

So why is it different with Lewis? Something else than "potential" is driving this.

---

It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2011 11:13AM by Morbid.

Morbid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> gav Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > That's where that awful word 'potential' comes
> > in.
> >
> > I think many of us did expect an era of
> > near-domination from him after his debut
> season.
> > Where Vettel is at the moment is where I
> thought
> > Hamilton would be. Granted he's not always had
> the
> > car to that, but he's gone the other way - he's
> > far less consistent now than he was back in
> 2007,
> > and decreasingly so year by year.
> >
> > He set his own bar very highly from the off.
> > Perhaps it is wrong to have expected him to
> just
> > carry on from there, but I think most of us
> > thought he'd be further along the road now,
> > whereas in reality he appears to be a worse
> driver
> > than he was back in 2007 and to an extent 2008.
>
> That is a nice argument, but it doesn't quite
> cover the bases. There have been other
> mega-talents in F1, that didn't end up with this
> kind of treatment. Frentzen would be one, but I
> think the most obvious comparison would be Kimi
> Räikkönen.
>
> Kimi has more talent in his little finger, than
> most Grand Prix drivers have in their entire
> career. Yet, he never mustered more than 1
> championship. He only one it by a single point
> from Hamilton and Alonso. He would not even have
> gotten the WDC, if Massa hadn't helped him out.
> Everybody knows that Kimi's work ethic's are poor.
> He doesn't want to stay long hours at the factory
> to help develop the car, or to get his mechanics
> to bond with him. He wants to party. We have lots
> of pictures of that. In my mind, the most striking
> image is him drunk out of his mind, in the gutter,
> cuddling a blow up dolphin. People even thought it
> was funny that Johnny Walker dared to sponsor
> McLaren when Kimi acted up the way he did. We
> would get the occasional flashes of brilliance
> here and there, and the rare mind-numbing
> performance, but after his (or rather during the
> later) McLaren days his heart was really never in
> it, and race after race at Ferrari was lack-lustre
> and dull.
>
> Everybody knows this. It is no secret. The same
> attitude proved to be costly for him in his rally
> career. Few (if any in the last couple of decades)
> had "potential" like Kimi, yet he never really
> delivered on it. He had the same "fire and
> brimstone" entry to F1 as Lewis, and had the same
> decline of form over time. But he never did catch
> the hate and spite that Hamilton does. We all know
> that whenever he was interviewed, it was like
> talking to a robot, so I doubt it was Kimi's
> camera "charm" that prevented this.
>
> So why is it different with Lewis? Something else
> than "potential" is driving this.


Very interesting comment here. I'm very intrigued, I also agree that there seems to be something that we are all missing but maybe Lewis know's, hence, his demure demeanor. Are we actually witnessing the deliberate distruction of a very talented sportsman for reasons unknown, through powers unknown?


" Perfection is not a gift ....... it comes with practice."

Member of R.S.C.T Group



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2011 05:46PM by Isaint.

I think we're more likely seeing a sportsman who was helped all the way up the motorsport ladder lose his way a bit since Ron's helping hand was removed. I doubt there's anything sinister involved.

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Indeed (obviously not something I would turn down in his situation, but something most drivers don't have the luxury of), that and the fact that since the middle of 2007, opinion was very much divided on Hamilton.

I also think he's struggled a bit because now that Ron's gone, he is not really number one but "equal" to Button and maybe that has hit him psychologically, now that he has seen that he has been outraced on more than a couple of occasions by a team mate in the same equipment.

Not even Fernando Alonso really managed that.

Yeah but Alonso never really had the full support of the team. There were strong rumours of discontent between Hamilton and Alonso from early in the season, but they only came to the surface after the debacle that was Hungary qualifying - and it was very clear then who the team were behind.

Now you get the feeling that the entire team is behind both Button and Hamilton... whether that lasts may depend on how the season ends for Hamilton, because surely the team must be starting to get frustrated with his erratic behaviour... and he hasn't always given them his full support in the past when the car/race/whatever hasn't been to his liking. The last thing he'll want after this season is for it to finish the way it has been going recently - you feel he's the sort of guy who'll need something to cling on to in the winter months.