2011 British GP **SPOILERS**

Horner said right after the GP, that the team order was a team decision, and that Mark fully agreed with it. Mark is saying something completely different, [www.autosport.com], so Horner is full of bullshit. Also, we all know how Vettel was nice to extend Webber the same courtesy, in the 6 or so races where his KERS was malfunctioning. I am glad such dribble is coming from Horner and not Vettel. Like Alonso, he knows how this sh!t goes down, and doesn't try to hide that he wants to be #1. That is honest talk, whether one likes it or not.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

97kirkc Wrote:
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> marcl Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The only thing I hate about all this team order
> > talk is when we get told the team wanted this
> > amount of point etc, well they would have got
> them
> > anyway no matter which way the cars finished.
>
> I don't get it, people keep saying this. The
> answer is they wouldn't have had the same points
> if they had taken each other off, that's what
> Horner was getting at.

Then he has not faith in his drivers to race clean, how many times this year have the Mclaren drivers raced each other and they made contact once simply due to one not being able to see the other. With the team orders and a pissed off Webber there is more chance of them crashing than just letting them get on with it.

I have no problem with webber being told to hold station its just like the Ferrari thing that we are then being treated like idiots with him saying webber was ok with it when he was not.

Morbid Wrote:
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> Horner said right after the GP, that the team
> order was a team decision, and that Mark fully
> agreed with it. Mark is saying something
> completely different,
> [www.autosport.com],
> so Horner is full of bullshit.

There's absolutely no evidence I can find, or that I remember watching, which supports this comment about Horner. He said in an interview right after the race that Mark disagreed with the team decision, not that he agreed with it.

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If Horner knew that Webber disagreed with team orders before the race, then why is he saying THIS:

[www.autosport.com]

Quote
When asked by AUTOSPORT if he was surprised that Webber had ignored orders, Horner said:
Yes. At the end of the day the team is the biggest thing, and no individual is bigger than the team

followed by:

Quote
Horner:
I made it quite clear in the drivers' briefing this morning in front of the engineers, that the biggest thing today was about getting a team result in front of all of the staff who put in so much effort into both of those cars, for the Constructors' Championship and the drivers' championship

So what is right? Did Webber object to team orders at the briefing, as you claim Horner says, or was he genuinely surprised, as he himself claims?

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

Maybe Webber agreed as he thought he would be infront lol

That is most likely true, lol!

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

i don't know i think this whole thing is being blown out of proportion, probably to put some pressure on Red Bull...

i knew Webber was going to ignore that order, it's in his personality, he will go for it, but Horner is being a bit dramatic, whats he going to do?, the truth was Mark didn't overtook Vettel, and both cars finish the race... i would understand if they crash and he was going to pull Webber's ears... but what happened, did he disturbed Sebastian too much for showing the car?... i saw some safe racing, Webber went to the outside in the back straight (what used to be main straight) and he safely gave his space to Seb... he wasn't racing that hard.. truth, he will probably have a word with him to prevent accidents in the future, but there's no need to play the hard boss, it will start a lot of rumours as if they think Mark is a bad guy for ignoring a team order, that they protect Vettel too much and all sort of stuff... and he didn't even overtook Vettel

EC83 Wrote:
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> Morbid Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Horner said right after the GP, that the team
> > order was a team decision, and that Mark fully
> > agreed with it. Mark is saying something
> > completely different,
> >
> [www.autosport.com],
>
> > so Horner is full of bullshit.
>
> There's absolutely no evidence I can find, or that
> I remember watching, which supports this comment
> about Horner. He said in an interview right after
> the race that Mark disagreed with the team
> decision, not that he agreed with it.

They never made a team order to not let Webber pass Vettel. Team radio just told Mark to "maintain the gap." This obviously doesn't mean "don't overtake" but rather "don't let Vettel pull away from you."

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REHAB IS FOR QUITTERS

That is not what Horner is saying. On BBC he was rather proud that he made the call, that Webber should not overtake.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

Morbid Wrote:
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> That is not what Horner is saying. On BBC he was
> rather proud that he made the call, that Webber
> should not overtake.
>
>




I've been saying this for years - we need irony tags.

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REHAB IS FOR QUITTERS

As a patriotic Aussie, naturally there is anger that Webber was told to maintain the gap = which translates to "do not bother overtaking Vettel".
You can understand the team orders on this, to ensure the team gets maximum points. The team orders could have also gone the other way, with Vettel been told to let Mark past, as he is faster..... but we all know Vettel is the #1 man for Red Bull. Mark knows that, as was clearly evident 12 months earlier in the British GP.....

Personally, I would love to have seen Webber given the freedom to overtake, given the fact that Vettel is so far in front with the points lead. But, Horner probably has done the right thing, for the team itself. And knowing how strong a character Webber is, I wouldn't mind betting he would love to tell the team to go and get stuffed, and quit..... then again, why would you not want to be driving the absolute best car on the grid....!!!!

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GPGSL Team Owner Debut - Melbourne, Season 8 - present
GPGSL Test Debut - Hungary, Season 4. GPGSL Race Debut - Adelaide, Season 5.

[irony]As a patriotic German I'd say "maintain the gap" means "keep on pushing, don't let Vettel pull away too far from you."[/irony]

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REHAB IS FOR QUITTERS

Vader Wrote:
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> I've been saying this for years - we need irony
> tags.

We probably do. Irony is lost on the interwebs

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2011 12:10AM by Morbid.

Basically what this comes down to is some people here getting bitter towards Horner, because he's rather a good team boss and his team have a nasty habit of doing well, to the extent it's clearly getting under the skins of some. So much so that when an excuse to attack him presents itself, it's seized upon. Today he issued one simple, logical and legit team order which happened to piss off Webber(who has his own history of lying, moaning and throwing melodramatic hissy fits, but let's brush that inconvenient truth under the carpet), and BOOM! Suddenly Horner is some kind of Antichrist.
Wow, I've been convinced.

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To a fanboy, every person with a different opinion is a hater. I actually wrote something nice about Vettel in one of my previous posts. Was that also some sort of hidden hate agenda? Or was that irrelevant, because labelling me a hater made your world cohesive again?

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

So everyone with a different opinion to yours is a fanboy, and anyone who sees flaws in your arguments is labelling you a hater? Nice try, but I'm afraid logic doesn't work like that.
My point was that you launched an apparently vitriolic attack on Horner(who has a clean reputation) with minimal provocation, while at the same time siding with someone(Webber) who, in the past, has been guilty of the very same wrongdoing you were accusing Horner of. How was that going to come across as anything other than you disliking Horner?

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You really need to learn how to read.

EC83 Wrote:
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> My point was that you launched an apparently
> vitriolic attack on Horner(who has a clean
> reputation) with minimal provocation, while at the
> same time siding with someone(Webber)

marcl Wrote:
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> Maybe Webber agreed as he thought he would be
> infront lol


Morbid Wrote:
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> That is most likely true, lol!


First you bust me for being anti-red bull, because they do well. I show you, that cannot be true, because I said nice things about Vettel. Then you say I am anti-Horner because I am pro Webber. Now I busted you for that.

Do you care for a third round, or have you had enough?

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2011 04:17AM by Morbid.

Just seen the race... Great race for Alonso.

Webber and Vettel... Well what Horner did was probably the right thing to do but for Webber to defy the team orders was also pretty fair IMO. I find it pretty rich of Horner and to read and hear his comments about this, and compare them with Germany 2010. He never mentioned the legality last year but made reference to taking away a part of the show. Thanks to Webber we did not lose that. But here Horner is trying to control an aspect of the sport he has no right to control.

His comments show a huuuuuuuge lack of faith in his drivers and are generally disappointing to hear. Ive never been a fan of Horner so I am probably biased one way but forgetting the legality issue of Germany (because that wasnt his concern) how can he be so quick to change his mind about the situation.

Either way I enjoyed seeing Webber have a go, but reality was Vettel had an answer. Horner will likely be mad at Webber but it wont change anything. Webber will not listen next time, and he has that right. Unless of course there is a clause in his contract suggesting that with two laps to go he can not overtake Vettel.

The situation was identical to Mclaren at Turkey in 2010. Except Mclaren claimed they were "critical" on fuel. Whether or not that was true is unknown to us... But it was wrong of Mclaren to claim Button would not pass Lewis and the situation could have hurt the team.

I understand Horner's situation, and I agree that he requested Webber to hold station but I do no believe he can be angry at Webber or feel let down. Horner needs to accept he that he can not control certain aspects about his team and the race weekend. What Webber did was give the PAYING fans a great show. If Horner want's to dispute that because is scared his drivers do not have the ability to race wheel to wheel then he needs to talk to Bernie about how to go about this motor racing business.

On the race, good stuff by Lewis at the start. Good stuff from Di Resta except for the obvious bits :p! And generally a great race! Looked like alot of mid field action! Sauber must be pleased they were as quick as the quickest Mercedes!

Button's race was disappointing, slow at the start then once he was quick he had that issue. Looked like he would come out at least alongside Webber so based on that I feel a podium was on the cards but mistakes happen. The mirror was reporting rumours of him to RBR. If that is the case I suggest he jump ship ASAP! He will not beat Lewis at Mclaren, and its very likely he will not beat Vettel at RBR but IMO he would give Vettel more competition than Webber. Button has proved pure speed is not everything in F1, that is how he has kept so close to Lewis. Difference is Vettel seems (atm) to be less prone to the errors Lewis will sometimes make. Likewise Mclaren have done EVERYTHING to make Button feel at home whilst I do not believe RBR will do the same. Horner is apparently quite the fan of Button but no doubt see's him as the number #2 driver who will listen to team orders . At the end of the race, Stefano and Webber seemed pretty friendly too. Silly season should be interesting.

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

chet Wrote:
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> Webber and Vettel... Well what Horner did was
> probably the right thing to do but for Webber to
> defy the team orders was also pretty fair IMO. I
> find it pretty rich of Horner and to read and hear
> his comments about this, and compare them with
> Germany 2010. He never mentioned the legality last
> year but made reference to taking away a part of
> the show. Thanks to Webber we did not lose that.
> But here Horner is trying to control an aspect of
> the sport he has no right to control.
>
> His comments show a huuuuuuuge lack of faith in
> his drivers and are generally disappointing to
> hear. Ive never been a fan of Horner so I am
> probably biased one way but forgetting the
> legality issue of Germany (because that wasnt his
> concern) how can he be so quick to change his mind
> about the situation.

[www.autosport.com]

Quote

Asked to respond to recent claims from Red Bull boss Dietrich Mateschitz that the team would never impose team orders, Horner said: "Mr Mateschitz would not thank us for having both cars in the fence in the last lap, with so many points having got ourselves into a very good position.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

I didnt realize he could predict the future, he seems so sure they would colide.

There's a chance Vettel could have crashed whilst racing Lewis, why not back off save the car and not risk an incident to get points? Lewis has been rather trigger happy with his racing of late. There was as much chance they would have collided as there was with Webber.

It should not be upto Horner to decide the result of a race. Unless it is written in Webber's contract Webber has NO obligation NOT to race Vettel whilst he has a chance for the WDC.

Had this siuation taken place 3-4 races later where it might be clear Webber will not win then I will understand, but not now.

As I said, Horner shows a huge lack of respect for his two drivers here. He assumes they will end up in the fence and act's accordingly but if they end up in the fence then thats racing. At this stage in the championsip he has zero right to dictate if Webber races Vettel or not.

Team orders are legal now, but Horner needs to at least show us why he believed they would crash/felt the need to restrain Webber. By doing so he is effectively saying Webber will not be allowed to win.

To say they would have ended up in the fence is God awful team management and that is a fact.

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL