Schumacher V's Lewis (Spoiler Alert!) and losing it?

I think to some degree you are all doing Hamilton down a bit. He has done the best job overtaking this season across the races so far. One also senses yet again an element of anti Hamilton here too.

I think it was fair enough he showed Michael respect on those opening exchanges. What was interesting later that no one seems to have picked up on was what he said in his interview after the race - he (Michael) " was probably the most aggressive guy I've ever competed against". On the second SC restart Michael was very much his old self and put Hamilton in the gravel when he tried to go around the outside.

I think MS will get back to the kind of form he wants (maybe not where he was) but challenging Rosberg before long. I don't know enough about car setup but Gav's observations about trying to force the car to a pointy style was very interesting. Presumably this car was designed from last summer with Button in mind?

It isn't anti-hamilton. It is just anti-comparisons between Lewis being the next dot dot dot.

A ridiculous comparison, considering the accomplishments of those being compared to.

Sure, if Lewis wins another title or two THEN we can make comparisons.

But heck, Alonso nearly won three in a row, and there are no Alonso-Senna comparisons. He is almost overlooked. Alonso is the Big Lebowski.


Jenson drives it like he owns it; Lewis drives it like he stole it

To be fair I think Hamilton does stand comparison now with both Mansell and Montoya. I maybe getting over the hill but when Mansell was competing in the 80s most people would say he was seriously overrated and a waste of space, you probably never heard James Hunt having a go.

I don't think the comparison of Alonso and Senna is the right one. It should be Alonso and Prost. As Fernando himself said "I'm not the fastest but I'm the most consistent". Back in the 80s Senna may have been the most electrifyingly quick racing driver but Prost was the most complete.

Just my view.

LMAO at the poo analogy! First time I've seen that one! I see where you're coming from though.


davidm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To be fair I think Hamilton does stand comparison
> now with both Mansell and Montoya. I maybe getting
> over the hill but when Mansell was competing in
> the 80s most people would say he was seriously
> overrated and a waste of space, you probably never
> heard James Hunt having a go.

I've watched quite a few races from the early- and mid-80s, and AFAIK Hunt was never particularly critical of Mansell at all. He did criticise Nigel if he made a silly mistake for example, but then he did that for all the drivers. If anything he apparently used to bash Patrese more(I say "apparently" because in the recordings I've come across so far, I've not yet come across any criticisms of Patrese's driving that weren't justified at the time).

---

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2010 06:20PM by EC83.

Sorry - must'nt be an old codger but James was fairly critical particularly prior to Nigel's first Brands win in '85. It was also a generally held view in the racing press that he was a "journeyman". They all resented it when he turned it round and proved them wrong, it took a very long time for him to be accepted for what he was.

The Patrese issue went back to Ronnie Peterson's fatal crash in 1978 which (although it was genrally thought otherwise), James blamed Riccardo for - he never gave up on it.

danm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If Senna was a poo, he'd be one of those you take
> after a long hard day at work. Very complete,
> start to finish feel good factor, you know when
> the poo is done, you know where you stand, almost
> sophisticated, relaxing with an elegant truffle
> texture. but still spicy enough to remind you what
> you ate for dinner. High quality stuff.

Best. quote. EVER. :D

Anyway, Lewis IMHO has far more similarities with Jacques Villeneuve than Ayrton Senna. e.g.
First season - Debuted in the same team as the title elect and quickly established himself, challenging for the title against his illustrious team leader, but lost out at the final race.
Second season - Led the team after the former champion's departure, had a strong season despite a messy few races in the middle, ended up going toe-to-toe against some guy in a Ferrari in the last race for the title. Won it after a dramatic and controversial last 30 minutes.
Third season - Found himself with a horrible, underperforming car but managed to dig deep to deliver some heroic performances. People start realising that he's not just a one-trick-pony.

In terms of achievements so far, Lewis Hamilton === Jacques Villeneuve. All the Hamilton fans may cringe at that comparison, but it's the truth.

---

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Please find us on [en.wikipedia.org] for more information.

Quote
davidm
I think to some degree you are all doing Hamilton down a bit. He has done the best job overtaking this season across the races so far. One also senses yet again an element of anti Hamilton here too.

No one will doubt that Hamilton is a good overtaker, least of all me, but you have to keep in mind that he's got the best engine and has done since he started (along with a couple of other teams), and in addition had the best KERS system by miles last year and has the f-duct this year. You have to keep yourself in perspective with his moves so far.

His teammates are hardly renowned for fantastic moves either - Alonso's OK, but overtaking is one of his few weaker areas, Heikki only ever went backwards in races and Button only seems to make moves when he's stronger on the brakes than others - like through 2009 when his Brawn was notably stable under braking - he's not the sort of driver who makes move happen out of no-where.

Hamilton's a very good racer and not afraid to overtake, but there are good reasons why his car has allowed him to perhaps look better at it than he would be in another car. For instance in a Renault or Red Bull I suspect he'd look very, very average with his overtakes, as he wouldn't have the weapons he has enjoyed for the past few seasons.

As for the Hamilton hate? He's got a couple of sides to him that's difficult to like. He's prepared to push the break the rules in order to gain (Spa 2008), sometimes has a disregard for those around him (Fuji 2007, Monza 2008) and didn't shirk when asked to lie in order to get another team punished (Melbourne 2009). He's managed a more widespread breakage of rules in 3 years than Schumacher managed in his entire career. He's a wonderfully talented driver who constantly taints himself. As a result you'll get a split - some love him, some hate him. People like me are stuck in the middle. I love watching him drive, but can't stand the bloke doing the driving. Perhaps he shares a bit of that with Senna and Schumacher, but it's the 1 'quality' you wouldn't want as an influence.

Quote
davidm
On the second SC restart Michael was very much his old self and put Hamilton in the gravel when he tried to go around the outside.

Hang on, Hamilton was behind Schumacher. If he was put into the gravel, what the @#$%& was he doing alongside him? Button Monza 2000 moment? Either way it's not Schumacher's job to ensure those behind him are doing their jobs, so long as it's not Fuji 2007 type of driving (ironically, guess who was caused the trouble there...)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2010 10:51PM by gav.

On your collective view of the earlier points all taken onboard. However you do seem to come down on the side of him being a fairly decent racer, certainly as good as a Mansell or Montoya. On the second point I was referring to after the SC had been released - I think turn 5 or 6., Michael dfended very strongly. One felt that had nothing to do with this race more "what will be when I'm truly up to speed".

The sad part is we will never truly know Hamilton's street value as a low level racer - because he was thrust straight into a winning car.

We've seen Mansell, Senna, Prost, Button, Hakkinen, Alonso, Schumacher... pretty much all champions of recent times work from the bottom up.

They shined in unshiny objects, most famed for trawling the back end of the grid.

Because Hamilton was thrust straight into a car capable of winning, if he did anything but, he was be considered a disappointment.

Think Coulthard. Race winning machinery for YEARS. Didn't make as much of it as he / or others may well have done.

So to say Hamilton has done spectacularly is maybe now a little unjust. Yes, he is good. Very good. But HOW good? He has the car.

We just won't know. I don't see him being put in a Lotus or a Sauber any time soon, so I doubt we ever will.

Put your keys under your pillow before you go to bed. Wake up. Are you surprised to find them there?

Put Hamilton straight into a VERY fast car. Watch the season unfold. Are you surprised he got podiums and wins?


Jenson drives it like he owns it; Lewis drives it like he stole it

Dan makes a good point. Senna, Prost, Alonso, Schumacher etc all had their early seasons in cars which were fairly competitive, but not top level(the Lotus 97T, the Benetton B192, Prost's and Alonso's first Renaults). Those were cars that weren't perfect, but were still competitive enough that a really top driver could make the difference and win in them. So they provided a good opportunity for a potentially great driver to showcase his talent, without being so good that people would think the car was winning and not him.

Lewis has never been in that situation. The 2007 and 2008 McLarens were much better cars than the ones mentioned above. The only time he's had an awkward/uncompetitive car so far has been the first half of 2009, and he hardly set the world on fire then(remembering that the majority of overtakes he did were made possible/easier by KERS). Later 2009, his car was put right after being worked on all season by the team, and he started winning again - while being made to look better still by the lack of performance from Heikki, who was going through a clear dip in form at that exact time.
So I've struggled - so far, at least - to see Lewis making any F1 car do things it shouldn't.

---

Exactly!

He is a very good driver. Sure. But we can't be absolutely certain. Take what Alonso did with the last few Renaults. Take what he has done so far this season. Sure, awkward race tactics and strategies, but Alonso took it to another level entirely.

I think this has a lot to do with driver maturity. Alonso matured driving some crap cars. He worked hard, was punished, and worked harder still. He got his rewards. It took him time to get there.

Hamilton has been rewarded from the start. I don't think he has the mental ability to deal with defeat. Being handed something and expected to always win, is it any surprise he pulls off outrageous moves and all or nothing dives. He doesn't and isn't knowledged in the art of losing. When he does, all is great. But the moment he isn't, or it is against him, we see the actions of a brat. A kid who can't have chocolate pudding because he didn't eat his vegetables. The child who doesn't get to stay up and watch the movie, so he throws a tantrum to the parents.

This is one big reason I think Button is making him look patchy.

In Button, we may not have as pristine a carrat; or as pure a diamond. No. Maybe not.

But in Button we have that extra something, maturity, level headedness that compensates that. His racecraft. His experience. These things, race tactics etc included, are what have got Jenson two wins already.

If only we could have had another 2009 year for Lewis. I think it would have smoothed out some of his child antics and brat attacks. But then again, maybe we will. Maybe being beaten by Jenson will make Lewis the bigger man in the long run.

Maybe Jenson will be the true making of Lewis Hamilton.

On a side note...

I really wish I had put a bet on Jenson doing the double this year. I really think he is second favourite, behind Alonso. Vettel might be quick, but he too has maturity to prove over distance. Plus he has a lot of reliability issues. The gap already is big, and we know how reliable the Mercedes engines are and Jenson's consistency to get in the points. Steady wins it.

There is more than a strong chance Vettel will have more DNF's or grid penalties as the season progresses. For me, aside from the likes of Hamilton / Rosberg / Massa / Webber gobbling shrapnels of outlying points, the tone has been set. Vettel could well win 8 more races this year. But how many of the others will be zero pointers? I do wonder... He doesn't strike me as a fighter through the field, a la Alonso.

Front row win, or bust.

I'll revert back to this thread in 6 months time. Think it'll be interesting to see how Jenson helps to mature Lewis.

Button going to McLaren was one of the best things to happen I feel, for Hamilton's career. Alonso was too fierce. Like when you bark back at a dog in a kennel, they both all get agitated and yelp at eachother. Nothing is solved. They both try to be the big man, and both end up hurt.

But nothing is more humiliating or like a good wake-up call than someone strolling into Woking as if it was no big deal and whipping their (c)ock out and casually slapping it over your face. 'Hey homies, I'm moving in. Cool with you, yeah'. Or softly talking to a very angry and wiley dog locked in a cage barking its head off for no reason. And just totally ignoring it.

That is what Jenson has done to Lewis. Little or minimal effort really. No yelping. No talking. Slow and steady (c)ock slapping.

And no fighting talk, and keeping quiet has got him two wins. Sure, maybe not out of pure racing and aggressive merit, but a win is a win. Two wins are two wins. Zero wins are zero. Zilch.

So will this make Hamilton realise he doesn't have to be the dog with the loudest bark, or coolest collar in town?

Wake up juice, if ever there was a perfect glass. Start the day with Jenson Button.

So Lewis, what's for dinner?


Jenson drives it like he owns it; Lewis drives it like he stole it



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2010 05:11AM by danm.

In terms of being a 'racer', I don't rate Lewis as good as Mansell or Montoya. But as an overall Formula One driver, I rate him considerably above Montoya.

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Alonso was made to look better in the bad car though by having 2 poor team mates, so please come back with a better comparison than Lewis and Kovy. Mclaren have also shown they give equal cars, just like Renault have this year as well. Why do Alonso fans feel the need to justify 2007, when both drivers got on and when everything was ok in the team Lewis still had more points than Alonso and beat him fare and square at a good number of races. Why do we always come back to Alonso and Lewis comparisons. You can only compare two drivers in the same car in the same team, oh Lewis finished 2nd in the championship Alonso 3rd there you go

The so called great Alonso, well he has one of the best cars on the grid probably the 2nd best car. His errors and a team mistake have stopped him doing better. In Australia he was saved by the safety car and in China he was saved twice by the saftey car. But yes he is doing a lot better than Massa but Massa is not making the same errors.

Button is the only top driver doing a perfect job if you ask me.

But when we get to normal races, ones with no rain, I expect Lewis to be the mclaren driver that comes out on top just like at the 1st race. But lewis was lucky in China as really he should have had 2 drive throughs, well he would have done 2 years ago. Last year I thought he got over the silly stuff but so far this year he has shown there is still some way to go and is giving people the chance to put him down.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2010 02:11PM by marcl.

villeneuve - hamilton comparison is valid. remember at the start of last year, hamilton had a bad car and he put in terrible performances, what was he like 18th in some races. reminds me of villeneuve in early bar days. only when the car got to track with long straights did he do good performnaces, and also mclaren did the best job of improving the car throughout the year.

His overtaking on track has been incredibly helped by kers last year and now the f-duct, he hardly ever has to outbrake anyone, he is usually through on a straight before a turn comes up, no skill involved.
Now in Sepang he looked like a hero because he was passing cars, and button in the same car wasnt, well anyone with brains saw that it was more because button in the early laps was behind ferraris, the car with the engine most comparable to the mercedes in the mclaren, so that held him up a bit, it wouldve held hamilton up too, as was evidenced by what happened when he caught up to the force india, which also has a mercedes engine, and he wasnt able to pass.

Hamilton is very lucky, Mclaren is the best team in F1 at improving a car, now they are nearly on Red bulls pace, so expect wins for Hamilton this year. He is so lucky to be driving that Mclaren with the fduct which pulls the car straight into the biggest aerodynamic slipstream slingshot of a car in front.

His comment about schumacher being the toughest competitor he has faced in an ontrack battle is outrages, everyone in the world saw that it was hamilton that stuffed up the overtaking manouvers, not schumacher defending god-like. Hamilton says this kind of stuff because he is extremely arrogant and over the top in his belief that he is god-like, he want people to think 'schumacher is the toughest to pass, but I-ME-ONLY ME- was good enough to pass him, so that makes me the best'. Obvoiusly he forgot about how hard it was to pass Sutil in Sepang!

Its that kind of arrogance and commentry, and along with some arrogant ontrack behaviour which make people dislike him. if he justdrove fast, which he does, but without so much errors and without so many arrogant comments to the media and without dubious manouvers on track (like driving pople off the road at 150mph in monza) then people would respect him.

Schumacher vs lewis, hmm - well what about Button?, he has 2 wins to hamiltons 0.
Everyone knows Hamilton is fast, but lets not make 'god' comparisons, as there are probably faster drivers in slower cars:

ie,
Robert Kubica, who is finishing races further up the field then the car deserves, where as hamilton is finishing races lower then the car deserves, and has made no mistakes unlike kubica.
Also remember in Melbourne, Hamilton f-ducting passed everyone, the only person he couldnt pass was kubica, infact he went off the track when he did try to pass.
Kubica has made 0 errors this year, where as Hamilton has made lots, in fact he made one within 30 seconds of the season starting, when he tried to outbrake massa in bahrain, and another car went passed he as he went wide throught the turn (this was only captured on the onboard f1 channel). Kubica has outqualified and finished ahead of his teammate in every race, and has finished ahead of drivers in better cars, has hamilton done any of that?
If i was as fanatical as most hamilton fans, id be starting a Fangio vs Kubica thread. but that is not needed, and neither is this dumb schumacher-lewis thread.
Well i guess he does do something for f1, he causes the great love-hate about sport, i posted in this thread even though i thought it was stupid, that shows what he and the media are doing.
Love-hate.... i vote hate, it will be funny if button in a few races is 3 wins to 0 or 4 wins to 0, i wonder what sort of funny comments we will get from hamilton then?

marcl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Alonso was made to look better in the bad car
> though by having 2 poor team mates, so please come
> back with a better comparison than Lewis and Kovy.
> Mclaren have also shown they give equal cars,
> just like Renault have this year as well. Why do
> Alonso fans feel the need to justify 2007, when
> both drivers got on and when everything was ok in
> the team Lewis still had more points than Alonso
> and beat him fare and square at a good number of
> races. Why do we always come back to Alonso and
> Lewis comparisons. You can only compare two
> drivers in the same car in the same team, oh Lewis
> finished 2nd in the championship Alonso 3rd there
> you go
>
> The so called great Alonso, well he has one of the
> best cars on the grid probably the 2nd best car.
> His errors and a team mistake have stopped him
> doing better. In Australia he was saved by the
> safety car and in China he was saved twice by the
> saftey car. But yes he is doing a lot better than
> Massa but Massa is not making the same errors.
>
> Button is the only top driver doing a perfect job
> if you ask me.

Did you watch Alonso from 2001-2003? worst car on the grid in 2001, and only 19 years old and often outqualified and outraces better cars. in 2002 to 2003 same thing in the Renault.
Its quite likely that in 2007 Hamilton only won races because Alonso put so much development work into the car, and then was treated unequally to Ron Dennis's favoured son. Yet Alonso with all the stress in inequality in the team still managed the same amount of points as Hamilton.

Your next paragraph, you can replace the world Alonso with Hamilton and everything you said would be correct also.

Button is the only top driver doing a perfect job? no he isnt he stuffed up qualifying in sepang also. Kubica is the only top driver doing a perfect job, or do you only classify top drivers if they are in top cars? even Sutil is driving beutifully.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2010 02:36PM by kubica2.

If the F duct is such an advantage why was MS able to repace Lewis then using the slip stream? Lewis got a run on MS down the straight due to coming out the corner better he was passing even before they were in top gear. That had nothing to do with the f duct. I think people need to actually look up what the f duct does and see that it actually as zeo advantage in corners or going onto the straight if they stalled the rear wing they would simply spin off.

Lewis is saying MS was hard as MS was defending and making Lewis go round the long way unlike everyone else leaving the inside open.

How many times did Lewis get close to Nico down the back straight then?

How about you look at a few thing, MS was running more rear wing due to the rain as wel Webber which is why Lewis go such a run on them.

The move on Sutil and the Rbr car was a clever move and well thought out, what is wrong with that move then?

In the rain he was also passing people round corners, I suppose that rubbish as well as it must be the f duct lol.

The f duct did not help lewis in Sepang and even in the tow he could not pass Sutil down the straight as Sutil was faster.

I like Lewis the driver but not lewis the man its as simple as that. He has carried out 22 over takes this year so far and yet people still say thats rubbish for this reason and that reason.

I agree about Kubica btw he is doing a great job this year, but I do not count him at the moment in that car with a chance to win the title so I was looking at the top 4 teams. Out of the top 4 teams Button and Nico are doing the best jobs.

I remember Alonso from his early years btw, how did he do against Trulli oh yeah and Brazil when he could have killed himself and workers on the track for not slowing down for a yellow flag. Great example. Dont get me wrong Alonso is a fantastic driver but was even worse than Lewis when he got a topish drive.

I give credit where credit is due even if I am not a fan of the driver, unlike some who just try and put people down all the bloody time for the sake of it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2010 02:42PM by marcl.

Quote
marcl
Button is the only top driver doing a perfect job if you ask me.

But Button has been hammered in both dry races. The only thing saving him has been his 2 decisions which have swung his way. His qualifying record is very good so far, but in both 'normal' races, he's been shown the way, not only by his teammate, but by his other title rivals. In my opinion the only way Button can carry on and be a title contender is if we have half a season of marginal conditions or wet weather and his decisions continue to pay off.

Quote
marcl
If the F duct is such an advantage why was MS able to repace Lewis then using the slip stream?

The benefits of the f-duct are 2 fold. You can apply more wing for more downforce without the penalty of losing straight-line speed, or you can carry a similar ratio of downforce to others and have a larger straight-line advantage. Chances are McLaren opt to go between the 2, having a touch more downforce while still being a touch faster on the straights. A large slipstream is a greater benefit than the f-duct, but you need to be right behind a car to get a large slipstream.

what is wrong with the sutil rbr move? it wasnt a move, sutil and rbr both went wide gifting hamilton 2 places. if you look at the race stats, hamilton was 11kmh faster then many cars down a straight, that is not driver ability.
if the f-duct was no advantage, why is everyteam wanting to implement it?
The reason people say is its no advantate is because a lot of times on the timing the mclaren doesnt have a faster top speed then other cars, well i will explain that to you as you seem to be struggling to understand formula one. with the f-duct, the DO have a top speed advantage, but they can now run more downforce and still have a decent top speed!! (maybe the extra downforce explains him getting out of corner faster then schumacher too). also the f-duct lets the car accelerate faster, so even if its not quicker in max speed, it will help accelerate the car into the slipstram of the car in front, where as without the fduct it might not be possible.

How many times did he close down nico?? none! because nico was driving a great race, his car was slower then hamiltons but he managed to hold him off. he had a better car setup then schumacher and drove a better race. hamiltons fuct still helped him close down to rosbergs car down the straight but not quite enough, because rosberg had enough grip out of the last turn to just hold up the mclaren. or perhaps he just drove better then hamilton?? that can be easily said, as at the end of the day hamilton in a better car, couldnt pass him! he did eventually, but only in the pits.

Dont get me wrong Alonso is a
> fantastic driver but was even worse than Lewis
> when he got a topish drive.
>

yes thats why he beat schumacher twice to the championship :P

I did not say the f duct was not an advantange, its is. But he got close to MS before it would have even take proper effect. And yes I know they can run extra down force etc but if u listen to Button and Lewis the car does not have enough down force. The F duct does not allow the car to accelerate any faster and they have to run longer gears as well to stop it hitting the rev limiter, when its in 6th and 7th gear then yes its faster.

MS has said Nico and him had near enough the same setup btw.

So lets get this right if Lewis wins from the front its easy, if he over takes people its due to this that and this.

Lewis got passed Nico in the pits yes due to better pit stratergy the same way Button won the 2 races and MS won a load of races. Oh but Lewis done this so its crap