F1 European Grand Prix: Valencia 2008

It caused two problems I never said there was an issue with it. I still think its a good system, i only said it has caused two problems in one weekend, when initially I thought it would be faultless.

Massa continued to make the issue worse agreed, but that was his choice alone so i guess thats why he was fined and not ferrari.

And about alonso, it was pit-entry i beleive. And though 10,000 is nothing to him its still a stupid amount for something as silly as crossing the entry line. Ive not see any other information about it, but as far as I know he was the only in the area, so its not like a car behind got confused or something.

---

"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

Bruninho Wrote:
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> I hope that the Ferrari #2 gets a penalty for the
> incident with Sutil - he should be checking his
> mirrors when rejoining!

You've supposedly watched F1 in 3 different decades, yet you still don't know that in no F1 pit can a driver see anything coming down the pitlane in his mirror?

Neither should have got a penalty in my opinion. Had he been in any other pit-stall, then yes, but he had plenty of space to be released into. Sutil didn't move until after Massa had let him go anyway. :\

chet Wrote:
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> Morbid - how was Sutil f*cked over by Ferrari in
> this case? As a backmarker he should have let him
> go anyway!

Agreed on the first point, but not on the 2nd. The pitlane isn't the place to give way, and it should make no difference whether they are a backmarker or not. There are no blue-flag rules in the pits, and it would ludicrous to start treating it as such a zone. I hope on reflection Massa apologises to Sutil as he was out of order saying he should have moved over or given way.

Morbid Wrote:
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> He had to swerve towards the wall to avoid Massa.

He didn't swerve at all though. There was a metre gap to his left which stayed constant until Massa had backed off, at which point Sutil did move left (after that narrowing of the pits - note not before that narrowing - after).

Morbid Wrote:
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> No it can't. They awarded the fine to the team. As
> I said, they CANNOT change WHO the penalty goes
> to, and they did.

Define 'his' though. You could interpret that it's not Massa's car, but that of the team owner. Or the man/men responsible for the release of the car. I'm not going to trawl through the sporting code to see if there's a definition of 'his' in regards to who's car it is in such a situation, but it could clearly be open to interpretation and as such gives some leverage in such a situation to apply penalties in different ways. That the driver is totally reliant on his team in such situations should leave that interpretation open too.

sasjag Wrote:
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> what would have happened if ferrari were not last in
> the pitlane, and a team of mechanics were tending
> to a car in teh next pit box?
>
> he would of wiped them out, or had to have slowed
> down and dropped behind sutil.

But they were the team at the end of the pitlane. Why not allow them to use that space, so long as it's safe (which it was, as the 2 cars never came close to touching each other or anything else). They should stop people using the shortcut to the first garage too if this is the case.

I agree with the general consensus that this shouldn't have been punished if other instances hadn't occurred at recent races. It's all good and well following the trend set in GP2, but where is the race to race consistency that everyone is crying out for? It's not necessarily a case of same penalty for all, but why no penalty at all since... well a while back. If you're going to suddenly start penalising teams for this (which is fine by me) then you have to say so openly prior to actually issuing them... you can't just chop and change when you want to bring the regulations into effect.




Anyway, the rest of the race.

Rubens was @#$%&. DC was @#$%&. Nakajima was @#$%&. Piquet nearly took his teammate out. Kimi was an idiot. Ferrari had another blow up. Massa was great. Vettel was great. Trulli was man of the race for me. Pretty much sums it up.

Kudos on Ferrari for still letting their drivers race. Today was evidence of just how little they're favouring either driver, and it was refreshing to see it stamped on the race in such a clear manner.

ITV moan. Steve Rider said before the race that "nothing had really changed after Hungary". We'll ignore the fact that Massa had fallen back a good bit and Raikkonen overtaken him, shall we? STOP TALKING ABOUT THINGS FROM THE LEWIS PERSPECTIVE AND START TALKING ABOUT THE @#$%& SPORT OF WHICH HAMILTON IS ONE COMPETITOR. He used to be miles better than this on the BBC during Hill's reign.... Bias is fine, and it's been the case in sporting commentary, at least in Britain, forever. But please, talk about things which affect Lewis, not simply that Lewis is there and has a supporting cast of 19 nameless minions.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2008 09:11PM by gav.

gav Wrote:
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> ITV moan. Steve Rider said before the race that
> "nothing had really changed after Hungary". We'll
> ignore the fact that Massa had fallen back a good
> bit and Raikkonen overtaken him, shall we? STOP
> TALKING ABOUT THINGS FROM THE LEWIS PERSPECTIVE
> AND START TALKING ABOUT THE @#$%& SPORT OF WHICH
> HAMILTON IS ONE COMPETITOR. He used to be miles
> better than this on the BBC during Hill's
> reign.... Bias is fine, and it's been the case in
> sporting commentary, at least in Britain, forever.
> But please, talk about things which affect Lewis,
> not simply that Lewis is there and has a
> supporting cast of 19 nameless minions.

Best post on ITV's hideousness so far

You're right though, due to the complications of the winner, even at the very end of the coverage, Steve Rider still talks about Lewis and dreams about Lewis winning by default and says "it can still be Lewis." twat

There's definitely an element of the FIA withholding penalties to stop them interfering with the Championship battle. I've never seen an incident be investigated by the stewards during the race and a penalty not be given out on the spot. The incident Lewis got the drive-thru for in France was minor by comparison, in terms of the potential consequences, but Lewis still got a penalty for his infringement.
Massa did show disregard for the rules, and didn't help himself with his comments about Sutil in the press conference in my opinion.


Ferrari_Fuhrer Wrote:
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> Ok, three points:
>
> 1) Ferrari's pit stop system is NOT automated. One
> of the guys on the pit wall hits a switch to
> change the lights. This does puzzle me somewhat,
> because I'm not sure how you save the time in the
> pit stop by doing this, but that's the way it is
> anyway. Automated it is not.

Fair enough. I called it that to save time, rather than writing "system without a lollipop, with lights" etc etc. Fair dos.

>
> 2) Kimi hasn't won every race since 2002 - MS won
> in 2002. It's also not been held twice in the last
> five years, so just to be clear, he's won it the
> last three times. It's still a good achievement,
> but the statistics were put in a way that made it
> slightly more impressive than it really was...

I know. You misunderstood my wording I think - I meant it literally, ie Kimi has won every GP held at Spa since MS won in 2002. It's true I put it in a way that flatters Kimi - spin is a wonderful thing

>
> 3) Massa's consistency. Yeah, ok, in the past he's
> not been very consistent. Even this year, you can
> look at Malaysia and say he made a schoolboy
> error, or at Silverstone and just see that he had
> a mare. But to he honest, when you look at his
> speed and consistency compared to all the other
> drivers this year, he fares pretty well. He's won
> four races, the same number as Hamilton and two
> more than Kimi. He's retired once through driver
> error (Malaysia) and driven another awful race
> (Silverstone), but Hamilton screwed up in Canada
> and only just got away with another error in
> Monaco. Hamilton and Massa have one fastest lap
> between them - and that's Massa's from Valencia,
> and both have 7 podiums - to Kimi's 7 fastest laps
> and 6 podiums. So, Massa might not be consistent
> in the vain of Schumacher or Alonso like we've
> been used to, but compared to the driver's he up
> against, he seems to be as consistent as his
> rivals - with perhaps only Kubica being more
> consistent (backmarkers aside).

You're forgetting Melbourne, where Massa drove like an inexperienced touring car driver, and Hockenheimring, where his racecraft was abysmal.
It's very true that Massa is improving steadily with each season that passes, and he's more consistent now than ever before. But he still has some way to go before he's true champion material IMO. For example, Massa hasn't driven a race yet like the ones Lewis drove at Silverstone and Hockenheim. He's getting better, but there's a lot of room for improvement still.

EC83 Wrote:
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> The incident Lewis got the drive-thru for in
> France was minor by comparison, in terms of the
> potential consequences, but Lewis still got a
> penalty for his infringement.

You can draw no comparison. One is a safety concern, the other is a sporting concern. It's chalk and cheese.

ITV Lewis rant continued in response to Monza972:

I don't care that they're Hamilton fanboys at all. Murray was a Mansell and Hill fanboy and it never bothered me in the slightest because of the way it was done.

It's the whole dumbing down of everything, and that everything must be Hamilton-centric. It doesn't bother me that they love him and want their show to be about him more than anyone else. What does irk me is that everything they do must relate to Lewis in some way. They don't give a stuff about the other drivers or teams.

"Mike Gascoyne, how do your calculations show Lewis? Do you think he can go further into the race than Kimi?".

"Thank you Steve, I'm talking to Pat Symonds of Renault. Pat, how do you think Lewis will drive with his cock in my mouth?"

It's hopeless. They get to talk to some of the best technical minds in the sporting world, but all they do is ask the most mind-numbingly stupid questions about a driver that these guys couldn't give a flying duck about. How they're not offended by it I've no idea.

If it was a 10 minute pre and post race, it wouldn't matter, but it's and hour before and half an hour afterwards, and if you skipped it every race, you may miss something that would be genuinely watchable (such as the 60 years of Silverstone segment, which still wasn't done particularly well).

Just acknowledge that there are other drivers out there. Kubica is having an awesome year, probably better than any driver on the grid in terms of his consistency race-to-race, but he's barely getting a mention. Trulli yesterday was fantastic, but the only time we hear something about him is when he gives them a bloody crate of wine from his vineyard for the competition with the most ludicrous of questions. You only ever hear something about them during the commentary when the camera is focussed on them, and you know it's bad when James Allen is featuring in the only tolerable bit of the show.

I think ITV are just really happy that there's finally a British driver who's actually good instead of just average, and they've taken their enthusiasm a bit too far

Its the same in other countries from what I have heard.

Spanish TV is just Alonso.

Germany was just MS

Italy Ferrari

So ITV is no different to these, they assume most people in the UK will support a driver from GB. ITV used to be button all the time and yes the BBC was Mansell but they also looked at Senna and others.

F1 has not had a top British driver since Hill so they will focus on Lewis, I dont think the last few races they have been as bad as they used to.

but with Button, it was a little bear-able but now, ouch!

marcl schrieb:
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> Germany was just MS

it was by far not as bad as it is with lewis. and during the years everyone got used to see him winning.
austria has always been quite crazy about their drivers - no matter if they ever won a race or not

Japan has an excellent commentary team who are enthusiastic and knowledgeable,but mostly enthusiastic about who-ever is putting on a great show on track. For the grid interviews they sometimes send along a cute model so at least you've got something nice to watch while the drivers ramble on about...whatever. They do keep an eye on the local boys,and teams but certainly not to the exclusion of others.

I started watching ITVs streaming races live, but have gone back to the delayed Japanese telecasts, which reflects my opinion of ITV's Hamilton fest.

Massa is really looking good in these last two races. He seems to be really focussed, If he can maintain that focus I think he will storm to the title.

Surely Kimi MUST try fueling low in qualy at least ONCE?? It's like his side of the garage is frozen and can't react.

I'm not sure about B.M.W.s strategy to just go with the flow and focus on next years car. Kubica is still, amazingly, in range of the title (just 2 points of Kimi and 15 off the lead!!). It just seems a shame they can't/wont push on for a shot at glory.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2008 04:53AM by Razorsedge.

EC83 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There's definitely an element of the FIA
> withholding penalties to stop them interfering
> with the Championship battle. I've never seen an
> incident be investigated by the stewards during
> the race and a penalty not be given out on the
> spot. The incident Lewis got the drive-thru for in
> France was minor by comparison, in terms of the
> potential consequences, but Lewis still got a
> penalty for his infringement.
> Massa did show disregard for the rules, and didn't
> help himself with his comments about Sutil in the
> press conference in my opinion.
>
>

Why is people having a hard time accepting Hamilton lost/ Massa won??
this incident happened before in 2004 with Montoya and Raikkonen in the Brasilian GP AND THEY WHERE FIGHTING FOR POSITION, and Montoya went to win the race... why don't people complain just as much??... Right.. because Kimi finished 2nd, not Hamilton

in America, where if a guys spins or almost hits the wall a caution comes out for like 5 laps, they have a better view of this pit stuff, you can race side by side and no penalty would be given, i've seen people crashing into each other coming out and people don't get penalized, i think this rule is stuppid to be applied in F1, really...

also how stupid would it be to prevent Massa from winning the race when he was the best on the track that day, just because he went side by side out of pits with a backmarker?



>
> You're forgetting Melbourne, where Massa drove
> like an inexperienced touring car driver, and
> Hockenheimring, where his racecraft was abysmal.
> It's very true that Massa is improving steadily
> with each season that passes, and he's more
> consistent now than ever before. But he still has
> some way to go before he's true champion material
> IMO. For example, Massa hasn't driven a race yet
> like the ones Lewis drove at Silverstone and
> Hockenheim. He's getting better, but there's a lot
> of room for improvement still.

why are you comparing Massa to Hamilton?., who's Hamilton?, what f1 championship did he won?, if you are talking about champion material compare him with a champion, like Kimi for example, who's being knocked out race by race by Massa, if he beats the current champion in the same car, than Massa is champion material... beisdes Massa has made great races and comebacks from the back, and the guy knows how to overtake, i think it was back in 2004 where he had the record of most overtake maneuvers in one season... with 27 or something like that...

gav Wrote:
>
> "Thank you Steve, I'm talking to Pat Symonds of
> Renault. Pat, how do you think Lewis will drive
> with his cock in my mouth?"

OMG, this just made my day HAHAHAHA



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2008 06:12AM by Slash.

lol slash, kimi being knocked out race by race? it only started 3 races ago, not more :P

edit - actually kimi was in 6 races better, and massa was in 6 races better, that includes the last 3 races.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2008 07:47AM by Iceman-Kimi.

a good analysis about the race i found this:

[rosehillpilot.spaces.live.com]

People were saying the same about Kimi last year and he won the championship.

All it takes is a win by kimi and an dnf by massa and lewis and kimi is leading the championship do not right him off yet.

Massa is driving well in the last 2 races, but Germany and Silverstone were not that great and the next race I fully expect Kimi to have the upper hand on him same at Monza.

Will be interesting to see what ferrari do with their engines. Kimi will now have a new engine that will need to do Spa and Monza, Massa will just need to do Spa.

most strange thing is that the 2 engine failures happend in the last 2 races, theres an engine freeze, so it can mean 2 things, it was a production error, or ferrari is secretly developing their engines, and went down the wrong way with it.

As I said earlier people need to remember that the engine in kimi's car was on its 2nd race, it was the same batch that blew up in Hungry for Massa.

Why have the FIA not checked any more engines yet? Another forum is saying stuff like Ferrari have gone back to the spec of engine that they started the year with and thats why they are getting these problems.

yeh but, in the beginning of the year they didnt have those problems, so why do they have them now then?

About the penalty. Ferrari have mumbled something about the penalty being applied team and not the driver, and whether that is a bit of Ferrari spin or not, lets face it they are likely to pay for it anyway and not Massa. I find it strange that Kimi's incident isn't being looked into, or at least not publicly anyway especially since it resulted in an injury to a mechanic (minor or not) and also Webber who came into his pit-box and nearly took out his jackman who was lucky not to land somewhere in south Africa.

About ITV, yes they are cringworthy beyond belief but in their defense (as feeble a defense as it may seem) the BBC are likely to be just a Lewis centered when they take the coverage on from next year.

mechanics know that such thing can happen, like when schumacher hit the jackman (at that time it was nigel stepney )

Iceman-Kimi Wrote:
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> most strange thing is that the 2 engine failures
> happend in the last 2 races, theres an engine
> freeze, so it can mean 2 things, it was a
> production error, or ferrari is secretly
> developing their engines, and went down the wrong
> way with it.


Ferrari kne about the fact that Kimi's engine could blow up just like Felipe's did...it was informed in finnish media week before the valencia gp that Ferrari had tested the engine in the test bench and it blow up just like at hungary , still they decided to take a risk with Kimi and use that engine instead of 10 grid penalty.


"Furthermore, the engineers were aware of a potential risk in general terms with the 056 engine fitted to Kimi's car, which was on its second race, given that the con rods were part of the same batch used on Felipe's engine. Changing the engine on Kimi's car would have seen the Finn start from far down the grid at a track where it appeared that overtaking was impossible, proving it's not enough to bring Formula 1 to a street circuit in a fantastic location to produce spectacular racing."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2008 10:38AM by vesuvius.