the tyres

Right. After 4 races we have Mercedes moaning about tyres, Schumacher being quite vocal.

Last year it became obvious, along with slight changes in construction and an F1 team's amazing ability to adapt and learn that the tyres last year became pretty easy to manage for most drivers. MW made the point of asking Pirelli to make it more of a challenge, so now they have that and here we have the sport's most successful driver complaining. (Worth pointing out his under rated team mate has a win in that car whilst Schumacher's results have been... poor)

My point is, in 3-4 races time im pretty sure the teams will be well on top of the tyres again. And Schumacher is saying he can't push at any point... well that's his car more than anything! Button in Australia pushed hard, Vettel did, Lewis did.. that was clear for all to see. In Malaysia, don't begin to think Alonso and Perez were driving on egg shells, and in China the 3 stoppers were pushing! Likewise, in Bahrain I am pretty sure the Lotus guys were going as quick as they could and Vettel at times too (despite being in control).

The tyres are fragile yes, but my point is we have seen racing, we have seen drivers pushing hard (maybe not 100% throughout the race but how often did that happen unless you were challenging for a stronger finish?). Mercedes are the ones being vocal because they know there car probably has the smallest operating window! Mclaren, Lotus and RedBull have been pretty consistent.

Anyone else agree its a classic case of a team moaning because they can't work with the regs, or think these tyres are too biased one way than the other. I posted because I saw an article on Autosport from Nick Fry (remember him?) who agree'd with Schumacher.

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

imo, Schumacher's result have been poor down to luck rather than his driving... he was looking better than Nico in Malaysia, Australia, he was right there at the beginning of China, and he got kicked in Q1 in Bahrain which totally handicaped his race, i mean nowadays it's harder to recover lost ground due to the competitiveness of the grid.
but yeah, those poor results probably have played a role in this triggering his comments, but we need these tyres, they give spectacle and if 1 team or even 2 opposes to them, it's still minority..

Michael expressed his view and a member of the team gave him support but imo it's been blown out of propportion, i'm sure Schumi will adapt soon and bad luck will end... if he gets on the podium he will definitely get that question "do you like the tyres now?" and the answer will still be NO.

Hi Chet. I hear what your saying and yes when your down there can always be a little 'sower grapes' found some where. But call me a purist, I think this whole tyre, DRS, KERS, thing has no place in this sport. Just give them the damn car and tyres and let them race. If they are going to boost the engines give them turbos. If not, give them normally asperated.
All this nursing the tyres, looking for the DRS zone, conserving your KERS is pathetic. I mean just saying it sounds 'Long' imagine how the drivers feel operating it all.
I'm Sorry, this is not F1 for me. That's why everything is so speculative. How can you even guess at who is the best out there when so much depends on the regs?


" Perfection is not a gift ....... it comes with practice."

Member of R.S.C.T Group



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2012 11:15PM by Isaint.

Isaint Wrote:
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> How can you even
> guess at who is the best out there when so much
> depends on the regs?


Easy. Since the regs are the same for everybody, then the best will be the best under those regs. That's it, and no matter how you change the regs, it will still be that way. If you think that the best driver in a "pure" F1 sport is the best driver in the world - full stop - then you are delusional.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

Morbid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Isaint Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Easy. Since the regs are the same for everybody,
> then the best will be the best under those regs.
> That's it, and no matter how you change the regs,
> it will still be that way. If you think that the
> best driver in a "pure" F1 sport is the best
> driver in the world - full stop - then you are
> delusional.

I can t believe you said that.
First off, the regs in question have nothing to do with an individual’s skill. They represent tactical intervention by people outside of the cockpit and outside of the pits.
Second to that, all the things that affect drivers as a result of these regs; such as climate, temperature not to mention mechanical reliability ( where DRS & KERS are concerned) are all beyond a drivers control and as we have seen many times effect different results at every race depending on circumstance.
The Regs are not the same for every driver.
In addition if you believe for one moment that these regs put every driver on an even playing field you are indeed naive.
As for F1 drivers being the best in the world? Well of course they're not..... I am. Which is no easier to prove or disprove compared to anyone on an F1 circuit at the moment.... Because it’s purely speculative, and that's my point.


" Perfection is not a gift ....... it comes with practice."

Member of R.S.C.T Group

He's right though. If we suddenly moved from the 5,000 metres to the 100m sprint, then yeah, we might get a different winner, but other than qualifying, that'll never be the case. The best driver is the driver who knows when to drive at the maximum and when to conserve their equipment. I agree on the DRS/KERS thing (I've no issue with KERS, but it should be a constant, allowing teams as much energy recovery as they can harvest), but tyre management has been an issue since we moved to radial tyres, and a driver's skill is getting 100% out of those tyres, be it wearing them efficiently or learning how they work.

You must really hate Le Mans.

Isaint Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I can t believe you said that.

The very fact that replied to my post kind of proves, that you do in fact believe that I posted what I did. If not, then what are you doing replying to my post?

> First off, the regs in question have nothing to do
> with an individual’s skill.

So why isn't it you and me that is in the cockpit? Why do the best drivers get huge pay checks? Do you think team manager are complete morons to offer those kinds of salaries? How come Alonso time and time again can wrestle results out of a car that should not be able to score solid points, and really never should be even close to a podium and much less a win?

It is about skill. It has everything to do with skill! Time and time again we have seen people like Button, starting off carefully down in row 3 or 4, and then later capitalize on tyre conservation and smooth driving style. At other times, the challenge has been to get the tyres up in temperature, which is a challenge that favours his team mate Hamilton instead. Both situations requires specific types of skill. All the button mashing and lever pulling adds the to mental workload of the driver, and we have heard several of them complain about that from time to time. It makes the drivers that are less able to focus prone to making more errors. That is another type of skill that is tested under these regs, and I could go on and on.

So stating that the regs have nothing to do with skill is ridiculous. Your problem seems to be, that you don't think F1 tests the RIGHT types of skill. That is something completely different and much more subjective.

> They represent
> tactical intervention by people outside of the
> cockpit and outside of the pits.

Tactical intervention will never make tyres last 10+ extra laps. At best you can get fresh tyres at the right time from tactical intervention.

> Second to that, all the things that affect drivers
> as a result of these regs; such as climate,
> temperature not to mention mechanical reliability
> ( where DRS & KERS are concerned) are all beyond a
> drivers control and as we have seen many times
> effect different results at every race depending
> on circumstance.

So a soccer match that is played on a turf that is muddy from rain and in windy conditions, negates the skills of the players, rendering it a random game? Interesting thought you have there. Climate, temperature not to mention mechanical reliability have been the staple of motor racing since it's birth a century ago, and if anything, it had even more to say in the past than it does now. Clearly you cannot remember how it was like just 10 years ago, with the Michelin and Bridgestone tyres having completely different characteristics, and mechanical failures often wiping out about 1/3 of the grid each race.

> The Regs are not the same for every driver.

I maintain that the regs are the same for all drivers. There is only one rulebook, and all drivers are treated equally in accordance with those rules. Please stop this non sense, or prove the existence of a second set of regs, and show which drivers that are being handicapped by this second set of regs.

> In addition if you believe for one moment that
> these regs put every driver on an even playing
> field you are indeed naive.

F1 has never EVER been about an even playing field. You always had development, strength and setup differences between the cars. If you want a level playing field, go watch a formula that standardizes all components, like Formula Ford, World Series by Renault or GP2. Better yet, make sure that all drivers are forced to use the same setup.

> As for F1 drivers being the best in the world?
> Well of course they're not..... I am. Which is no
> easier to prove or disprove compared to anyone on
> an F1 circuit at the moment.... Because it’s
> purely speculative, and that's my point.

No matter which regs you opt for, it will never ever consistently produce the best driver in the world. The best you can hope for, is that you get the best driver under the current regs. If F1 produced world champions that were the best drivers in the world, then they would trash everybody else in all other motorsport challenges, and as we have seen time and time again... they don't.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

Oh please don't be a child. Why have I replied to your post ... ' Is it because you think I'm right?'
No, it's because I have an opinion that's what this thread is all about. You say something, someone says something else. They agree or disagree... they may even open your eyes to something new.
I'm not going to go into a manuscript with this; I have better things to do.

Just get one thing straight. If you have a valid point I'll be the first to concede to it, on the other hand my opinion is my opinion, simple as that. You don't have enough words in your vocabulary to change that.

Comparing football with F1 is like comparing a mature glass of wine to a flat glass of beer. In any event, if that’s the best you can come up with I'll indulge you. If you really think that a player is so skilful that he won’t slip on the mud or the rain won’t take the spin of the ball or he is so precise that he can compensate for the change of wind in a mille- second and of course none of this affects his game or slows him down because of course he is so skilful, yeah okay!? Right. And that's why they have these little things called 'studs' and guess what? They are manufactured to last the whole game not for two Free kicks or one penalty ... the whole game.

Second to that, your little tirade concerning Jenson and his 'smooth' driving.... so tired of that saying. Drivers conserving their tires because of skill? Well the same drivers including Jenson should be able to do that little trick at every race and Win! Don't you think? Or maybe it's because there are other adverse aspects that they cannot control that affect this out come?
You talking about how a driver can nurse a tyre for ten laps about sums everything up, how sad 'Wow he made the tyres last for ten laps then he had to pit!' Is that the spectacle of racing that you want to defend? Go ahead.....
As for Le Mans no I don’t like it, plus it’s a totally different discipline.
As for drivers having to worry about their tyres from the beginning of time, you know well that that kind of tyre preservation cannot compare to the fall-off that these purpose built tires give now.
And what’s all this crap about the best driver in the world. F1 represents just that, the 'Pinnacle of motor sport' an all that. I really don’t care about rallying or Nascar or any of that otherwise I'd be watching it ..... I’m watching formula1, if there is some guy out there in the Outer Hebrides that is quicker than Senna ever was who cares .... Is he sitting in an F1 car now? No, so the point is mute.
Finally cos’ I’m getting bored now. I don’t remember at any point saying there were different regs for different drivers? I simply think that regs we have now were thought up by John todts grandchild.
They prevent us seeing a race from start to finish without ‘imposed’ incident. I would like to see the tyre life of old and the outlawing of DRS and KERS, if that makes me a pariah that’s too bad.


" Perfection is not a gift ....... it comes with practice."

Member of R.S.C.T Group



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2012 02:09PM by Isaint.

Isaint Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh please don't be a child.

You kick off the debate with an insult in your opening remark. Well done, and it clearly demonstrates that if anything, YOU are not the child.

> I'm not going to go into a manuscript with this; I
> have better things to do.

And then proceeds to type up a large volume of text.

> If you have a valid
> point I'll be the first to concede to it

I really doubt this is the case. Let me demonstrate why.

> on the
> other hand my opinion is my opinion, simple as
> that. You don't have enough words in your
> vocabulary to change that.

Another insult, this time to my vocabulary.

> Comparing football with F1 is like comparing a
> mature glass of wine to a flat glass of beer.

So, you reject my assertions, by saying that F1 and Football are not subject to proper analogies...

> In
> any event, if that’s the best you can come up
> with I'll indulge you. If you really think that a
> player is so skilful that he won’t slip on the
> mud or the rain won’t take the spin of the ball
> or he is so precise that he can compensate for the
> change of wind in a mille- second and of course
> none of this affects his game or slows him down
> because of course he is so skilful, yeah okay!?
> Right. And that's why they have these little
> things called 'studs' and guess what? They are
> manufactured to last the whole game not for two
> Free kicks or one penalty ... the whole game.

... and you proceed to give more of those very same flawed analogies?!? I should think you, under pain of hypocrisy, would be barred from doing so!

> Second to that, your little tirade concerning
> Jenson and his 'smooth' driving.... so tired of
> that saying.

Another insult.

> Drivers conserving their tires
> because of skill?

Well we constantly hear drivers talking about it. But I guess you are privy to a conspiracy, between the thousands of employees in the F1 circus, that this is not really the case.

> Well the same drivers including
> Jenson should be able to do that little trick at
> every race and Win! Don't you think?

No. I explained that in the previous post.

> Or maybe it's
> because there are other adverse aspects that they
> cannot control that affect this out come?

Please do read it.

> You talking about how a driver can nurse a tyre
> for ten laps about sums everything up, how sad
> 'Wow he made the tyres last for ten laps then he
> had to pit!' Is that the spectacle of racing that
> you want to defend? Go ahead.....

No, again please do read. I said "10+ extra laps". The difference is small, I know. Just 6 characters and an empty space - but the difference in meaning is vast.

> As for Le Mans no I don’t like it, plus it’s a
> totally different discipline.

Discipline... as in different distribution of required skills?

> As for drivers having to worry about their tyres
> from the beginning of time,

Why do you switch "radial" to "beginning of time"? This is an rhetorical trick, that gives you a significant advantage. You do not argue the point, you argue the point you think you can defeat.

> you know well that
> that kind of tyre preservation cannot compare to
> the fall-off that these purpose built tires give
> now.

See above.

> And what’s all this crap about the best driver
> in the world. F1 represents just that, the
> 'Pinnacle of motor sport' an all that. I really
> don’t care about rallying or Nascar or any of
> that otherwise I'd be watching it ..... I’m
> watching formula1, if there is some guy out there
> in the Outer Hebrides that is quicker than Senna
> ever was who cares .... Is he sitting in an F1 car
> now? No, so the point is mute.

Pinnacle of Motor Sport does not mean the best driver in the world. Again you change the phrasing, so you don't have to argue against the actual point, but you can argue against the point of your choosing.

> Finally cos’ I’m getting bored now. I don’t
> remember at any point saying there were different
> regs for different drivers? I simply think that
> regs we have now were thought up by John todts
> grandchild.

Your memory does not serve you well.

Quote
Isaint
The Regs are not the same for every driver.

> They prevent us seeing a race from start to finish
> without ‘imposed’ incident. I would like to
> see the tyre life of old and the outlawing of DRS
> and KERS, if that makes me a pariah that’s too
> bad.

That is fair enough. But if you don't want to be a pariah, then have the strength of conviction just to state your opinion and believe that is good enough. All the stupid and manipulative tricks you pull in your post only goes to show, that you don't really believe that it is okay. Why else would you try to defeat the persona of those you debate (through insults and ridicule) instead of their arguments, and why else would you twist their words, as you do? It makes the following statement from you very flimsy indeed:

> If you have a valid point I'll be the first to concede to it

... especially when you in such a volume of text actually manage to ignore most of the proposed points. It seems to me, that you are so bent on preaching, that you have totally forgotten, that maybe it is you that needs to learn something new.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2012 02:38PM by Morbid.

I dont see the tyres´fragility as a problem, but i dont like the reg of using both prime and option during the race, and neither having onle one tyre supplier. having 2 or more tyre suppliers and not having the obligation of using both tyre types during the race would let the drivers adapt the car to their driving style a little better and we would see more variation in the strategies, something that today depends almost totally of the qualifying.

Alright....
Here we go again quote ' The regs are not the same for every driver' does not mean there are different regs for different drivers; it means it affects drivers in different ways. That's why it can’t be the same.
As for preaching, take along look at yourself my friend. I come on here when I have something to say ... this is your life and you seldom agree with anyone because you feel your point is always the most important.
As for ridiculing and insulting you? What are you looking for an audience? You are the most insensitive person on this thread so don’t put on the wounded act.

Have you ever seen the size of a manuscript? Thought not.
There is no scheming or manipulation or play on words, that's in your mind, this is simply my view. I don’t like the Regs that are in place right now. I think it spoils the sport again, my opinion.
You ranting on about hypocrisy and baying for people to get banned shows your nature in true form. You want to ask the question but don’t like the answer ' oh so let's ban him!' If the powers that be feel that is the case the freedom of speech on this site is all lost and so is mature debate something you have a big problem with.


Anybody that knows me on this site will tell you I am the most amiable person to talk to but I don’t like 'Bullies' either physically or verbally. I met them all in my gym they couldn't last one minute let alone three and after that they had very little to say.

I don’t need to stoop to insults, I have nothing to prove but if my opinion offends you because that’s all it is at the end of the day, simply don’t respond.
I'm going to close this off now for the sake of the other guys if you want to talk to me in private feel free to PM me.


" Perfection is not a gift ....... it comes with practice."

Member of R.S.C.T Group

I am not a fan on the current tyres but its the same for everyone this time.

I remember years and years ago when MS was happy and the rest were not and he was not bothered then. It turns out he had tyres made for him that not even his team mate got.

So for once what goes around comes around.

F1 should be about flat out racing not about take it easy half the race or be @#$%& for half of it.

This is ridiculous. I could say a lot of things, but I will just point to one, just to show how f@cked up the content of your post is:

Isaint Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You ranting on about hypocrisy and baying for
> people to get banned shows your nature in true
> form. You want to ask the question but don’t
> like the answer ' oh so let's ban him!' If the
> powers that be feel that is the case the freedom
> of speech on this site is all lost and so is
> mature debate something you have a big problem
> with.

Where... just WHERE... did I say anything about banning? Why do you feel this need to twist everything out of proportion and put words in other peoples mouths?

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2012 05:07AM by Morbid.

Quote '. and you proceed to give more of those very same flawed analogies?!? I should think you, under pain of hypocrisy, would be barred from doing so!'
You're the one that's @#$%& up mate ..... and you're beginning to get on my nerves. In case your blind as well stupid I said, use my Pm box if you have the balls.


" Perfection is not a gift ....... it comes with practice."

Member of R.S.C.T Group



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2012 12:57PM by Isaint.

Quote '. and you proceed to give more of those very same flawed analogies?!? I should think you, under pain of hypocrisy, would be barred from doing so!'
You're the one that's @#$%& up mate ..... and you're beginning to get on my nerves. In case your blind as well stupid I said, use my Pm box if got you have the balls.


" Perfection is not a gift ....... it comes with practice."

Member of R.S.C.T Group

Isaint, I have no intention of taking sides, but you've completely misread that part of his post. He's saying that your logical urge to not be a hypocrite should prevent you from saying what you did. No-one's threatening to ban anyone from the forum...

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Thankyou senninho, for your clarification. This would have been more literal though, don't you think? ...'I should think you, under pain of hypocrisy, would refrain from doing so!' In any event I have no intention of continuing this. I've made it clear that it is not productive for other members. I have a Pm box we can sort it out right there.


" Perfection is not a gift ....... it comes with practice."

Member of R.S.C.T Group



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2012 01:55PM by Isaint.

TBH, you have misread most of what wrote in all of my posts, in the same way as you misread barred and banned. I already pointed out several cases of this in the earlier posts. It is clear that you are much to quick to anger, and that you don't take the proper time to read the text that is presented to you. Take a chill pill, dude. I tried (in vain) to debate with you, not fight you.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

Well, first off I am not angry. You know nothing about me but believe this. You have not seen me angry. This is just annoyance.
If you call your efforts debating, fine but you and I both know there was quite a bit more than that, if you’re honest. I'll ignore the 'Chill-pill' and forgive you for the 'Dude' salutation cos' it is just a little bit passé.
All I know is this.... We won’t be taking warm showers together any time soon.


" Perfection is not a gift ....... it comes with practice."

Member of R.S.C.T Group

OK, you are very cool, big and strong, and nobody pushes you around. Disagreeing with you is a bad idea, because you are also extremely clever, and even when you are wrong, you eventually end up being right. You are the big man. Everybody knows that now, and you have set the record straight... permanently! Can we get on with the original topic?

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.