Formula One 2015 (and beyond)

Bernie confirmed what I've thought for years, he's only interested in the few rich people, rather than the millions of fans - t0553r!

Good thinking - because young people are 1337, we can slag the 7w@7 off in language he wouldn't be able to understand. LOL.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2014 01:13AM by EC83.

Yeah I think it's time ti say bye for Bernie.. If they're not doing it by now, the teams should either push him out or hire him a consultant that keeps his stupidity in his drying brain...

Yeah, I respectfully think it's time for Bernie to retire.

He's done a massive amount to build the sport into what it is, but he now risks ruining it all.

I wonder if Ross Brawn could be tempted into some kind of interim role... It probably wouldn't be long term and the comerical aspect may not be his area, but if there is one thing that he proved excellent at time and time again, it's putting good people into the right roles and making but successes that way.

Either way, Bernie is getting further out of touch.

The thing is Bernie's comments don't even hold up. While a few sponsors do have an older demographic, a much higher percentage don't, Redbull must be the biggest sponsor in F1 and they certainly aim at kids and 20 somethings. Mercedes too, most of their sponsors bar, pertronas are aimed at young people. It could be argued that Ferrari and McLaren are the only teams that don't have sponsors (that I can think of) that aim at under 30's primarily.

Whilst Bernie has done amazing work to get F1 to where it is, he's undoing all that now. F1 needs to be at the cutting edge, and frankly it isn't now. It's not exciting anymore, If it wasn't for Lewis nothing would have happened this season and the media isn't helping. It's been all doom and gloom and negativity this year. Bernie used to good at turning things around and making a few quid along the way, but it seems he can't do that now, which is shame. It's time someone younger came in, Christian Horner would be perfect, if it wasn't for his involvement with Redbull.

The other scenario is he's as sharp as he has ever been and all this is a plan to make something happen.

I don't think he racing or excitement is the problem, it's been terrific pretty much all year.

It's the politics and bickering which Bernie only manages to stir which is disappointing.

The problem is that when Bernie retires or dies the guy who will take over won't be a racer. Bernie may be going senile but he was at least once a racer. CVC will appoint one of their own, and they will only be interested in making sure the shares look good in the short term and making sure they get out at the right time. Bernie might only be a glorified advisor, but he carries a lot of weight and whoever steps up to replace him is highly likely to be worse.

Somehow F1 as a whole don't realise that without the fans it is fanless, therefore sponsorless and ultimately worthless. Of course CVC's interest is in F1, but at the moment they're doing nothing to support it in a period of need and there has been nothing to suggest anything will change.

F1 is in serious danger of imploding at the moment. It's too expensive for private teams, CVC are likely to only be interested in their own, and if we get another season like 2009 F1 will be dead in a matter of weeks. Let me expand on that last bit. In 2008 Honda withdrew. In 2009 we lost both Toyota and BMW. If another three manufacturers were to disappear in quick succession again, we'd be left with one and F1 would die an immediate death. In 2009 the independent teams (and ultimately Cosworth, ish) were there to pick up the pieces, but if that were to happen at the end of 2015 the independents wouldn't be able to do it, as money (and Bernie) is looking like phasing them out and there is no safety net. Who would supply the engines?

F1 is teetering on the edge and is entirely reliant on a handful of behemoths. If its is still around in 10 (5?) years in any meaningful form I'll be staggered.

It's like the CART/IRL split of the 90s, only this is F1 vs its own inner demons. It's backed itself into a corner it doesn't know how to get out of.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2014 10:32PM by gav.

Bernie's suggestion that F1 is better off with old rich people, than poor young people, is really the same thing as his suggestions on sprinklers and track shortcuts. On paper, you get what you want. In reality, you get nothing close to what you really want. In marketing, getting young people to switch to your product is like striking gold. A certain portion of consumers will not switch to another brand, once they made their choice. This is especially true for men, one of the reasons advertising targets women far more often than men. It's true that old rich people have spending power, but for how long do they have that? Rich dead consumers don't consume. If you get young people, especially young guys, hooked on your product, you could get anything between 1 to 50+ years of purchases and the majority are not going to stay poor forever. Targeting old rich people will get sales here and now. Targeting young people will get far more bang for the buck.

gav Wrote:
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> Somehow F1 as a whole don't realise that without
> the fans it is fanless, therefore sponsorless and
> ultimately worthless. Of course CVC's interest is
> in F1, but at the moment they're doing nothing to
> support it in a period of need and there has been
> nothing to suggest anything will change.

I have worked in a couple of places, that were bought up by investment funds. In practice, what they want is twofold, but it really is the same thing. They want the share prices to soar, which will of course net them a huge profit, when (and it is never IF) they decide to sell. The second thing they want, is to limit the expenses of the running costs and boost revenue as much as possible, even to the point of neglecting critical maintenance and key staff employment satisfaction. They do so, to be able to siphon off as much money as they can every single year. The reason for that is more than immediate profit. In the current economic climate, share prices rely heavily on yearly profits, as stocks are not seen as long term investments through 15-30 years of dividend any more. Thus siphoning off as much money as possible (to the detriment of the health of the investment) actually BOOSTS share prices, because potential buyers get fixed on that yearly profit that could be theirs here and now. The point of sale happens, just before the stream of money begins to taper off, thus allowing sales of shares at peak profit. So often, the investment itself is not much more than a dry husk at that point, nowhere near the value of the share prices. It's simple profit maximization.

And agree, in the hands of CVC, there is not much hope that F1 exists 10 years down the road. And eccentric and senile as Bernie has become, it is going to get worse once he is gone, and replaced by a CVC agent.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2014 10:28AM by Morbid.

Maybe it's me, but in F1s current state, it's hard to get young people interested at all, even if Bernie wanted to.

Alan Henry wrote a great piece a few months ago on F1s marketing off itself (or lack thereof). Towards the end, he writes about all the terms F1 uses. MGU-K, MGU-H, DRS, ERS, prime tyre, option tyre. Let's be honest, those terms excite nobody. I like Henry's concept of the Speedwing, for example. Just call it like it is. How is a dad going to explain to his 10 year old who just started watching F1 with his father what the MGU-H is. When I started watching, it took me an age to even remember what a chicane was. Hell, it took me several races to remember whether the prime tyre was the harder or the softer tyre when those were introduced. A son starts watching F1 because it is exiting. Listening to a commentator who sounds like he's reading from an engineering book is hardly going to excite a young audience.

At this moment, F1 doesn't have to put effort into attracting a young audience, because it can't anyway. F1 isn't appealing to a young audience. It's far too hard to get into.

Well, the current engine regs are a disaster on so many issues, regardless of them being comprehensible or not.

Let's take a look at some facts, that I got from Kiesa during the coverage of the last race. The current budget for a year's worth of engines is at least 20£ million, which is double that of what it was with the V8s. There is no question that this pushed both Marussia and Caterham closer to the brink. But despite years and years of cost cutting, the fact is that this hasn't happened at all.

When Kiesa drove for Minardi back in the days, they had half the budget of what proved to be insufficient for both Marussia and Caterham. During a race weekend, they would go through more than one engine and often more than one of the other auxiliary units, like the gearbox. Today, you have 6 engines, that cost much, much more than double what it took for a team to use multiple engines every weekend. That's not just the cost of supply, but also of the logistics of carting it around from venue to venue and the people needed to take care of that. What is even more worrying Minardi used to go testing on a pretty regular basis, which means using even more engines. They also had to spend money on testing teams and the logistics that came with that, including housing and feed the testing teams while on site, and paying the testing venue. These costs don't even exist in any meaningful way any more.

So how can it be that teams, that effectively had double the budget of Minardi a decade ago, which also have a significant portion of their costs through testing eliminated, can only get a mere fraction (30-60+ versus 6) of the engines Minardi got, and still can't survive or make any more of an impact at the races than Minardi could? The public talk has been about cost cutting, but clearly, underneath the surface, this has never really happened. If anything, the costs have exploded, and the engine regs are a major part of that.

But those engines was what the manufacturers wanted, because they relate to road car technology, so that was what they got. In all honesty, it is hard to see any MAJOR players, that want what is good for the sport. They are all pushing their own self-serving agendas. And the collective sum of those single rationalities becomes the madness of the F1 world we know today.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2014 12:43PM by Morbid.

F1's been too complacent for years; it's the only real worldwide top-tier series, so it could previously afford to be. However, with Formula E offering a little more accessibility for a younger crowd, F1's going to have to sort itself out to make it an attractive viewing experience.

What should have been the case is that engine manufacturers had to work to a certain pricing plan. The engine should have cost no more than $10m to develop, and the engine prices should have been capped at around $5m. Costs wouldn't have been as large to the teams, reducing the issues we currently have, plus I would expect more unpredictable reliability from cheaper units.

Furthermore, Bernie should be actively helping teams. The number of blank cars is staggering; not even Minardi were faced with that issue back in the day (because they had about 50 small sponsors, but still). There should perhaps be some negotiation between larger sponsors and CVC, who then allocate them to a team. Although that might be a bit too much, it's surely a better option than just sitting and laughing at the teams who can't attract big sponsors for whatever reason.

But as Nickv said, the technical jargon is too heavy. It's fine for me, I'm a Motorsport student, but I appreciate that everyone else is not going to give a @#$%& what MGU-K, H, ABC, XYZ or whatever is. F1 needs to simplify. It's all very well that the cars are trying to be road-relevant, but I don't really think they need to be. Let WEC be the flagship for new technology, and let F1 be about balls-to-the-wall racing. I like the current V6t units, but they were implemented wrongly. As much as it annoys me to say, nobody cares about anything other than the engine. Let there be turbos and naturally-aspirated engines simultaneously. Let the allowable boost pressure be free to choose. Let the teams make the choice.

The largest problem is Bernie. He takes the old phrase "all publicity is good publicity" and pushes that so far that he can barely see the wood for the trees. He's so caught up in playing games with teams, sponsors and fans that he's got tangled up and doesn't know how to get out of it. If a government was run like he runs F1, he'd be in jail for corruption. His obsession with "cleaning the riff-raff" from the back of the grid has produced some of the price inflation. It's not an accessible sport for a little team with nothing but the love of racing in their pockers; we'll never see the tiny teams bringing home a big result in dodgy conditions anymore because they've been priced out of the market. F1 shouldn't be cheap, but it shouldn't be just a toy for the richest players either. It's about racing, not money.

Perhaps a GP1 series is viable at this time. Single-spec chassis from Dallara, and single-spec engine from Mecachrome/AER/Cosworth/Judd/etc; ensure a yearly budget is capped at $10m. No guff, no gubbins, just 26-30 high performance pure racing vehicles racing around the globe. Should be quite simple to implement, no?

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GPGSL: S6 - TafuroGP Tester (14th) /// S7 - ART Tester (6th) /// S8 - Demon Driver (13th) /// S9 - Demon/Snake Driver (13th) /// S10 - Snake Driver (???) ///]
"My ambition is handicapped by laziness" - Charles Bukowski

As an additional bit to the craziness(And has been pointed out on Sky several times, and Bernie even acknowledged it himself in an interview earlier this year), the GP2 crew, who run on a tiny fraction of the budget of the F1s, have been lapping within a few seconds of them this year. There's a solution to the problem in there somewhere, but because it would involve people swallowing their pride and doing the odd U-turn, I guess a completely blind eye will be turned to it.
Brilliant!

Edit: Just seen Incident 2K9 touched on this in his post he made while I was typing this.

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2014 01:50PM by EC83.

Incident 2k9 Wrote:
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> F1's been too complacent for years; it's the only
> real worldwide top-tier series, so it could
> previously afford to be. However, with Formula E
> offering a little more accessibility for a younger
> crowd, F1's going to have to sort itself out to
> make it an attractive viewing experience.

I have watched Formula E, and they are very far from being a challenge to F1, let alone GP2. They sound spectacle is so underwhelming. The cars have a simplistic look, almost like a lower formula series, and they can't generate much downforce, partly due to lack of top speed. The suspension looks like it was made by Fred Flintstone. It's rock hard. The slip angle is almost none existent, which cars having grip in a almost on/off kind of way that does not return easily, even when comes to turning at relatively modest speeds. So the racing is in a weird clattering through the streets sort of way. Also, their batteries don't allow for GP length races.

> What should have been the case is that engine
> manufacturers had to work to a certain pricing
> plan. The engine should have cost no more than
> $10m to develop, and the engine prices should have
> been capped at around $5m. Costs wouldn't have
> been as large to the teams, reducing the issues we
> currently have, plus I would expect more
> unpredictable reliability from cheaper units.

The worst thing is, that engine regs are the easiest to cost cut. If they follow the line of what is popular around the world in amateur stock car (not ovals) racing, it would be the simplest regs in the world. Basically, you can show up with whatever technology you want to put on your car, but you have to be willing to sell the whole car at a low fixed price, like £2500 to any contender that would want to purchase it after the race. That prevents the need for scrutiny crews and complicated regs. You can purchase success, but only if you are willing to bleed through the nose for it, and very soon, the other contenders will have the same equipment for a fraction of the price.

Following the same principle, the manufacturers could have been told, look you can invent any engine you want and you can spend as much developing it as you want. But you have to accept that a years supply can cost a maximum of 5£ million, and that ANY team can purchase that engine at the end of the season, including other manufacturers, for that price, and you have to deliver the same spec engine, that you are using yourself. Let's see Mercedes and Renault post billions of $$$ into development of engines under those regs. It won't happen. They will spend enough that they think they can win, and it is still advantageous and not a dime more.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

Morbid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Incident 2k9 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > F1's been too complacent for years; it's the
> only
> > real worldwide top-tier series, so it could
> > previously afford to be. However, with Formula
> E
> > offering a little more accessibility for a
> younger
> > crowd, F1's going to have to sort itself out to
> > make it an attractive viewing experience.
>
> I have watched Formula E, and they are very far
> from being a challenge to F1, let alone GP2. They
> sound spectacle is so underwhelming. The cars have
> a simplistic look, almost like a lower formula
> series, and they can't generate much downforce,
> partly due to lack of top speed. The suspension
> looks like it was made by Fred Flintstone. It's
> rock hard. The slip angle is almost none existent,
> which cars having grip in a almost on/off kind of
> way that does not return easily, even when comes
> to turning at relatively modest speeds. So the
> racing is in a weird clattering through the
> streets sort of way. Also, their batteries don't
> allow for GP length races.
>

You're quite correct, but the first few years will be getting the technology just right. However, it's a formula taking the known limits of electrical power and pushing it, hopefully to a level where there is more speed and more life. It doesn't have to be quick right now, because the first race was enjoyable, it just needs time to grow. It's a simple concept and it seems to be working.

Alejandro Agag has picked up a TV deal with CCTV, one of the biggest Chinese national TV stations, which F1 doesn't have. For the next race at Putrajaya, the Formula E website will be streaming the race live online. They're active on social media, they're a product of this generation. F1's currently pioneering modern technology but being run like it's the 1970s. FE might not have the excitement factor that F1 draws, but it's building its profile in the right way.

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GPGSL: S6 - TafuroGP Tester (14th) /// S7 - ART Tester (6th) /// S8 - Demon Driver (13th) /// S9 - Demon/Snake Driver (13th) /// S10 - Snake Driver (???) ///]
"My ambition is handicapped by laziness" - Charles Bukowski



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2014 02:18PM by Incident 2k9.

You are quite on the money with those considerations. Formula E could be grand in time (... in time mind you!), and they are certainly doing a much better job at the level of the framework of the series than F1 is doing.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

I think it's all getting rather silly.

Bernie is obviously trolling again, it's what he tends to do as part of his tactic of "divide and conquer" only this time he really is risking it all.

To be so dismissive of the younger fan is ludicrous. Where on earth does he think the next generation of fans are coming from? They might not have money to waste on his brands today... but they will do tomorrow whilst his OAPs won't because they'd have died off.

Besides which, most people interested in motorsport probably become so at a young age. I think I was probably about eight when I suddenly 'discovered' F1. My dad took me to the 1991 British Grand Prix and WOW... these big bright, loud, smelly and spectacular cars whizzing past at a million miles per hour, what excitement! I was hooked and I still am. I certainly never had any money back then to put in Bernies pockets but I sincerely doubt F1 would have caught my imagination so easily if I only discovered it as an adult.

Don't get me wrong... we don't need to dumb F1 down to attract the younger fan, we don't need any of this 'twitter vote for boost bullshit'... but we shouldn't dismiss the younger fan as penniless and pointless either. After all, one day they will be the market and hence need to be embraced.

I maintain that the politics as ever are the problem and inevitably Bernie is at the centre of it all.

I know this won't happen, because of course like any bank they are only interested in their own profit and won't mind screwing over anyone else to get it... but CVC really need to bring all the parties in the sport together and say "See here chaps, these historical bonus payments are rather daft and can no longer be allowed to go on".

All teams should get the same participation payment. And then a smaller fund for prize money can be dished out on a more sliding scale of merit. As Brundle says.. there is more than enough money in F1 to support ten good quality racing teams. The current arrangement is insanity.

It's like a house of cards, it'll only take the slightest draft of wind or jog of the table to bring the whole lot down. By letting the core race teams go out of business threatens the whole sport because there will be no teams left when the manufactures decide to pull out on a whim because they're losing or because their new chief executive doesn't like racing cars.

The actual racing and talent pool is as good as it's ever been, but the organisation and promotion is more so than ever loosing touch.

Are Ferrari and Red Bull afraid of sharing the F1 revenue more evenly because the likes of Manor might actually start beating them? It often looks like that they are... but the problem is... the less teams there are left to race, mean less teams there are to beat... and suddenly they'll start to look less impressive because they'll have no competition to beat.

It's daft... so daft. F1 has the resources to support it's core, i.e. the race teams whose business it is to race.. the people who will always be there whether there are manufactures present or not. It also has the resource to support the next new drivers... but ridiculously the champions of the main feeder series GP2 routinely find themselves with no chance to race in F1 because no team can afford to run them. It's mind numbingly stupid because the money exists in F1 to solve all of this.

But as ever greed, selfishness and sheer stupidity will rule the roost.





Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2014 04:19PM by J i m.

J i m Wrote:
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> But as ever greed, selfishness and sheer stupidity
> will rule the roost.

Pardon my correction, but that would be hordes of intelligent people, running the agendas of clever greed and stupid selfishness at the behest of industrial and financial behemoths. It's hard to find stupid people in F1.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

Yes, well intelligence doesn't exclude someone from stupidity.

Unfortunately, in some circumstances, it makes you more prone to being stupid... and stubborn to boot.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

Morbid Wrote:
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> racing is in a weird clattering through the
> streets sort of way. Also, their batteries don't
> allow for GP length races.

i watched the first race, and i've always questioned how were they going to do in the future to solve that problem.. and then found this news not long ago

Titanium - Dioxide Batteries Will Last 20 Years and Recharge in 5 mins

Apparently they are being developped and release in 2 years from now.. though i'm sure the final product won't be as promised, it at least seems that won't be a "problem" in the near future. Honestly i don't know how F1 is going to be the pinaccle over the next few years if everything continues the way it is.
And those facts you got from Kiesa seem quite frightening... everybody's been fooled for a few years now