Where does Vettel stand amongst the all time best as of now?
Posted by chrislewis
But as it stands now based on his present results he is a great? After all you can't really judge him on future results can you?
As for Alonso, he may so far being simply a double champion but I'd still include him among the greats because as a rookie he dragged a Minardi which was at a best a rush job of a car into positions it had no right to be, he then lowered the benchmark for the youngest position, podium, win and champion and has since won races every single season and been a contender for the title with very exceptions (08/09). He's been one of the very best in the field since 2004/5 and so his longevity this far has been impressive.
And remember you don't need to be a world champion to be talked about among the greats.. Stirling Moss, Gilles Villeneuve etc?
As for Alonso, he may so far being simply a double champion but I'd still include him among the greats because as a rookie he dragged a Minardi which was at a best a rush job of a car into positions it had no right to be, he then lowered the benchmark for the youngest position, podium, win and champion and has since won races every single season and been a contender for the title with very exceptions (08/09). He's been one of the very best in the field since 2004/5 and so his longevity this far has been impressive.
And remember you don't need to be a world champion to be talked about among the greats.. Stirling Moss, Gilles Villeneuve etc?
He never won in 2009(Which is understandable, given what a shitbox that Renault was). But, yeah, he's had an almost superhuman presence in the sport for over 10 years now - and is definitely one of the greats.
I think greatness in F1 is ultimately measured by how a driver compares with other, proven drivers. Alonso proved himself by winning two titles while racing against MS, one of them after a really tough battle. Vettel in turn has now proven himself by winning titles racing against Alonso.
Looking at it like that, "great" drivers represent a continuum, an almost unbroken thread that stretches right the way back through F1's history. Schumacher didn't win a title against Senna, but he definitely beat him plenty of times in races, and common sense suggests he would've won against him at some point even with a legal car. Senna won against Prost. Prost won against Lauda. Lauda won against Fittipaldi. Fittipaldi won against Stewart, etc etc. The only real interruptions to it have been when a top driver has lost his life.
It's the only real way to know how good a particular top driver is, with the difference in their various eras.
I think greatness in F1 is ultimately measured by how a driver compares with other, proven drivers. Alonso proved himself by winning two titles while racing against MS, one of them after a really tough battle. Vettel in turn has now proven himself by winning titles racing against Alonso.
Looking at it like that, "great" drivers represent a continuum, an almost unbroken thread that stretches right the way back through F1's history. Schumacher didn't win a title against Senna, but he definitely beat him plenty of times in races, and common sense suggests he would've won against him at some point even with a legal car. Senna won against Prost. Prost won against Lauda. Lauda won against Fittipaldi. Fittipaldi won against Stewart, etc etc. The only real interruptions to it have been when a top driver has lost his life.
It's the only real way to know how good a particular top driver is, with the difference in their various eras.
I'm not sure where this myth of Alonso excelling in poor machinery has come from.
I can think of only three occasions when he has won in an inferior car and two of those were in 2008. For one of those the team cheated, and in the other, all of the top runners had a dreadful day.
His other stand out win in a 'poor' car was Malaysia 2012, which was a wet race and was crazy as hell.
I'm not trying to say he isn't a great driver, because believe me he is and I was a great fan of his back back when he was younger, but the idea that he has always excelled in poor cars, in my eyes simply isn't true.
In fact, his performances in the early part of 2008 and for the most part in 2009 were very mediocre.
Races: 163 - Wins: 23 - Pole Positions: 24 - Fastest Laps: 22
Season 9: Constructors' Champions
I can think of only three occasions when he has won in an inferior car and two of those were in 2008. For one of those the team cheated, and in the other, all of the top runners had a dreadful day.
His other stand out win in a 'poor' car was Malaysia 2012, which was a wet race and was crazy as hell.
I'm not trying to say he isn't a great driver, because believe me he is and I was a great fan of his back back when he was younger, but the idea that he has always excelled in poor cars, in my eyes simply isn't true.
In fact, his performances in the early part of 2008 and for the most part in 2009 were very mediocre.
Races: 163 - Wins: 23 - Pole Positions: 24 - Fastest Laps: 22
Season 9: Constructors' Champions
Ferrari2007 Wrote:
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> In fact, his performances in the early part of
> 2008 and for the most part in 2009 were very
> mediocre.
It wasn't the most impressive time of his career in terms of general results, although the quality of the cars he was driving skews that. But one thing I'll say about 2008 was that towards the end of that year, at Fuji, he delivered one of the most impressive performances I've ever seen from any driver. He didn't drive badly during the opening few laps, but when Kubica pitted he took off and started doing laptimes that shouldn't even have been possible in that car, literally. Lap after lap after lap, not only on the edge but over it at times, and still making it work perfectly. It was as good as Senna at Donington or MS in Hungary 1998. He did something literally superhuman that day, and it was magical and mindblowing to watch.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/08/2013 10:01AM by EC83.
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> In fact, his performances in the early part of
> 2008 and for the most part in 2009 were very
> mediocre.
It wasn't the most impressive time of his career in terms of general results, although the quality of the cars he was driving skews that. But one thing I'll say about 2008 was that towards the end of that year, at Fuji, he delivered one of the most impressive performances I've ever seen from any driver. He didn't drive badly during the opening few laps, but when Kubica pitted he took off and started doing laptimes that shouldn't even have been possible in that car, literally. Lap after lap after lap, not only on the edge but over it at times, and still making it work perfectly. It was as good as Senna at Donington or MS in Hungary 1998. He did something literally superhuman that day, and it was magical and mindblowing to watch.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/08/2013 10:01AM by EC83.
Gav ..... I have to laugh. I do @#$%& like that all the time when I'm trying to figure things out.
I think the answer to your question is to have all the attributes that you mentioned not just one ( excluding the best car ) because when you are complete as an athlete you can perform well in any situation with any equipment and even if you don't win all the time people talk about you as if you did .... why? Well I guess it's because even when your not in the best car or your opponent is bigger than you or faster or has better ball control or can even lift more than you. In the end you triumph ...... I guess that's greatness.
" Perfection is not a gift ....... it comes with practice."
Member of R.S.C.T Group
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/08/2013 11:36PM by Isaint.
I think the answer to your question is to have all the attributes that you mentioned not just one ( excluding the best car ) because when you are complete as an athlete you can perform well in any situation with any equipment and even if you don't win all the time people talk about you as if you did .... why? Well I guess it's because even when your not in the best car or your opponent is bigger than you or faster or has better ball control or can even lift more than you. In the end you triumph ...... I guess that's greatness.
" Perfection is not a gift ....... it comes with practice."
Member of R.S.C.T Group
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/08/2013 11:36PM by Isaint.
This year has been the year where my opinion of Vettel has changed, I now see him as a genuinely good driver. But, do I think he's the best on the grid? No. I still think that's Alonso and Hamilton.
Yes, he has been dominating and winning by insane margins, but there are still so many unknowns. He has had the same teammate, the same car, the same Adrian Newey, the same Helmut Marko. I'm afraid that I'm in the camp who will not call him a great until he proves that it's his own skill that's creating the success. Alonso has driven with several teammates at various teams and has beaten them all convincingly (with the exception of Hamilton). Yes, Alonso did get the teams to make him the number 1 driver, like Vettel, but he did it with several teams, whereas Vettel has only done it with one. He may have just been very lucky and had it all fall into place (unlikely, I know, but it's a thought that still lurks at the back of my mind. Is it manufactured success?). Once he does it all again with another team, then I'll happily call him a great.
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You know you want to. [judgegrudge.mybrute.com]
Yes, he has been dominating and winning by insane margins, but there are still so many unknowns. He has had the same teammate, the same car, the same Adrian Newey, the same Helmut Marko. I'm afraid that I'm in the camp who will not call him a great until he proves that it's his own skill that's creating the success. Alonso has driven with several teammates at various teams and has beaten them all convincingly (with the exception of Hamilton). Yes, Alonso did get the teams to make him the number 1 driver, like Vettel, but he did it with several teams, whereas Vettel has only done it with one. He may have just been very lucky and had it all fall into place (unlikely, I know, but it's a thought that still lurks at the back of my mind. Is it manufactured success?). Once he does it all again with another team, then I'll happily call him a great.
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You know you want to. [judgegrudge.mybrute.com]
But by that definition Jim Clark would not be "great".
Well I'm British and I have to say that I would not put Lewis in the great category .... I predicted this on the outset of his initiation into F1 to be honest.
Every one talks about how quick his raw speed is but there are plenty of drivers that given the right opportunity could display the same 'Raw' speed. Lewis is not consistent and has never had the right mind set or temperament to be in the great league and in my opinion never will.
Lewis was groomed to do exactly what Vettel has achieved and he didn't, sorry for all the Lewis fans but that is that, he missed the boat ...
I can not for one minute see him winning multiple Championships at Mercedes. So that would probably mean another change and more disruption to his career and all the time getting older.
It's also blatantly obvious that Rosberg pound for pound can match him .... no problem. Also this puts a tennis ball in the mouth of all the Schumacher critics no doubt.
Lewis can still win races and may or may not win another Championship but that depends on his career path as well as being up against the likes of Alonso and Kimmi never mind Vettel .........
Sorry to say I can't see Lewis doing anything special that would relegate him into the greats ...... Vettel has already sailed that ship. As for being consistent and totally dogged even when in inferior machinery both Kimmi and Alonso are way in front of Lewis in that department, so ...I just don't see any significant change in the near future.
" Perfection is not a gift ....... it comes with practice."
Member of R.S.C.T Group
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2013 08:38PM by Isaint.
Every one talks about how quick his raw speed is but there are plenty of drivers that given the right opportunity could display the same 'Raw' speed. Lewis is not consistent and has never had the right mind set or temperament to be in the great league and in my opinion never will.
Lewis was groomed to do exactly what Vettel has achieved and he didn't, sorry for all the Lewis fans but that is that, he missed the boat ...
I can not for one minute see him winning multiple Championships at Mercedes. So that would probably mean another change and more disruption to his career and all the time getting older.
It's also blatantly obvious that Rosberg pound for pound can match him .... no problem. Also this puts a tennis ball in the mouth of all the Schumacher critics no doubt.
Lewis can still win races and may or may not win another Championship but that depends on his career path as well as being up against the likes of Alonso and Kimmi never mind Vettel .........
Sorry to say I can't see Lewis doing anything special that would relegate him into the greats ...... Vettel has already sailed that ship. As for being consistent and totally dogged even when in inferior machinery both Kimmi and Alonso are way in front of Lewis in that department, so ...I just don't see any significant change in the near future.
" Perfection is not a gift ....... it comes with practice."
Member of R.S.C.T Group
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2013 08:38PM by Isaint.
I too am British and Hamilton is not a great in my eyes, he hasn't done nearly enough to considered as great. It's probably more of the modern pop culture which may generate that perception among the British public.
But in many ways who we do consider as great is really quite subjective. How do we define it?
In my view Stirling Moss is a "great" and yet he never won a world championship. He did however have bucketfuls of legendary results and was considered as the best by his peers post Fangio.
Jack Brabham is often forgotten about. But he is a triple world champion. He built his own cars not only as a constructor in which he was the first and only driver to win a championship as owner/driver/constructor but he also built his own cars at Cooper. Surely he qualifies as great?
Jim Clark (in F1 at least) only ever drove for Lotus who often as not had the best car (if also the most fragile). But without exception he was considered by his peers to the most naturally talented driver ever grace the wheel of a racing car. And he did also score maximum points in a championship not once but twice. A great? Almost certainly.
Niki Lauda was never considered to be among the most talented or quickest, and yet he's a triple champion whose meticulous attention to detail often did put him above his peers. He beat Prost to a championship in the same car at a time when the Frenchman stepping up to his prime.
People often argue that Schumacher isn't a great because he lacked the competition, usually had the best car and had all the factors engineered towards his favor. And yet his work ethic built that environment and his statistics speak for themselves.
Some drivers, who ought not to considered great are still revered (often rightly so). Gilles Villeneuve, Jean Alesi, Montoya, Kimi etc.
But in many ways who we do consider as great is really quite subjective. How do we define it?
In my view Stirling Moss is a "great" and yet he never won a world championship. He did however have bucketfuls of legendary results and was considered as the best by his peers post Fangio.
Jack Brabham is often forgotten about. But he is a triple world champion. He built his own cars not only as a constructor in which he was the first and only driver to win a championship as owner/driver/constructor but he also built his own cars at Cooper. Surely he qualifies as great?
Jim Clark (in F1 at least) only ever drove for Lotus who often as not had the best car (if also the most fragile). But without exception he was considered by his peers to the most naturally talented driver ever grace the wheel of a racing car. And he did also score maximum points in a championship not once but twice. A great? Almost certainly.
Niki Lauda was never considered to be among the most talented or quickest, and yet he's a triple champion whose meticulous attention to detail often did put him above his peers. He beat Prost to a championship in the same car at a time when the Frenchman stepping up to his prime.
People often argue that Schumacher isn't a great because he lacked the competition, usually had the best car and had all the factors engineered towards his favor. And yet his work ethic built that environment and his statistics speak for themselves.
Some drivers, who ought not to considered great are still revered (often rightly so). Gilles Villeneuve, Jean Alesi, Montoya, Kimi etc.
If Clark and Moss deserve a mention here, Stewart and Mansell do as well.
Stewart was in the same class as Clark. He didn't have quite the same raw speed(although he wasn't far behind), but what he lacked there he made up for in bold confidence and completeness. He was a brilliant all-rounder.
Mansell was a late developer as a driver, but over time he became one of the very best. His combination of obvious aggression, outstanding intuition and racecraft was pretty exceptional.
(The racecraft side might not seem obvious, but there were times when he pulled off masterstrokes. For example, Portugal 1989 is remembered for him ignoring the black flag, but his move on Berger for the lead earlier on in the race was exceptionally clever and beautifully timed.)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2013 01:25AM by EC83.
Stewart was in the same class as Clark. He didn't have quite the same raw speed(although he wasn't far behind), but what he lacked there he made up for in bold confidence and completeness. He was a brilliant all-rounder.
Mansell was a late developer as a driver, but over time he became one of the very best. His combination of obvious aggression, outstanding intuition and racecraft was pretty exceptional.
(The racecraft side might not seem obvious, but there were times when he pulled off masterstrokes. For example, Portugal 1989 is remembered for him ignoring the black flag, but his move on Berger for the lead earlier on in the race was exceptionally clever and beautifully timed.)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2013 01:25AM by EC83.
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