2012 Malaysian Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***

I think it's obvious Merc put their development work into qualifying at the front. Probably influenced by the Red Bull strategy from last year, of stick in front and make an early gap to run away from DRS trouble. However, I think the game may have changed a little this year to reflect a more 'traditional' be fast consistantly and take advantages when they arise. So i think despite their clever Qualy innovation they've taken their eye off the bigger picture.

Although Malaysia was skewed by the weather and Grosgean, there is a huge problem though, because both drivers are just dissapearing into the LOWER mid-field, and they can't seem to get positions back once they are lost.


Massa is finished. But how do Ferrari replace him without rocking Alonso's boat?

*edit to say: Go Karthikyan! (even though i disagree with him, why not fight his corner!).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2012 05:50PM by Razorsedge.

NK was in the wrong about the incident, he accepted that im sure but let's be clear...

Under no circumstances has Vettel got any right to call another driver an idiot, or gherkin(???!). Then the middle finger... twice?!

Clearly Vettel is taking his frustration out on Narain...

Kid Vettel showing again. What's happened to the cool, calm, MATURE, gentleman we had last few years?

Lewis called backmarkers monkeys, Vettel calls them idiots. Both drivers rushed into success before they could handle failure. Ah, trials and tribulations of F1.

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

I'm not sure Ferrari will replace Massa, simply because there are no real replacements. Bianchi would struggle, Perezz would be stupid to move there, Rubens is in Indy. Trulli maybe - but he would find something to complain about. Jaime might be a good choice.

Razorsedge schrieb:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Although Malaysia was skewed by the weather and
> Grosgean, there is a huge problem though, because
> both drivers are just dissapearing into the LOWER
> mid-field, and they can't seem to get positions
> back once they are lost.
>
>

correct !! i just wonder, whether the problem is because of tyre degradation only, or rather due to pure lack of pace on a high fuel load

Their other problem is that much of their qualifying pace must come from their DRS/f-duct system. It might only give them a few KPH, but it gives them that any time the car isn't cornering.

Add to that the tyre degradation issues and it's hard to argue they aren't currently the slowest of the established teams.

Mercedes have have issues with the tyres pretty much ever since they became Mercedes in 2010. It got more pronounced last year and yet lot of people are shell shocked that they're struggling with the tyres again this year.

I don't think they've intentionally developed a car biased towards qualifying I just think that other teams and cars are genuinely better at managing the tyres.

What's more is that with engineering depth they have at that team you'd expect them to make steady progress on this issue and the basically haven't. Even Williams who have been woeful on tyre management for a number of years have made one of their main weaknesses into a strength this year as the FW34 seems to manage the tyres well in race trim.

Stefano Domenicali has made quite an interesting point regarding the criticism towards Massa. If we cast our minds back to Malaysia 2008 and the situation was pretty much the same. Massa had had an awful start and after Malaysia there were all sorts of rumours flying around about Massa getting replaced and he wasn´t good enough, etc. Then he turned everything around and nearly won the championship that year.

With that in mind I don´t think Ferrari are going to do anything drastic just yet and as much as I would love to see Jaime get a go, it´s a bit pointless really. Perez surely is going to be driving that car next year, so other than pleasing Santander, it doesn´t really make much sense to put Jaime in the car for the rest of the season, when there is every chance he wont do any better than Massa is doing right now. Perez is at Sauber and TelMex are only there because he is, so there is very little chance of Sauber letting him leave. There best option, as sad as it sounds, is to leave Massa in the car for now.

I think the Karthikeyan and Vettel incident have blame for both parties. Karthikeyan shouldn't really have twitched at the moment, but Vettel should have allowed more room as he lapped him while Karthikeyan was was correcting a mistake on the double right hander.

Really shows the difference in maturity between Seb and Schumacher though, as TV isn't the best place to be name calling other drivers in the field. Vettel is probably forgetting that the HRT are the cars that he will overtake the most this season, and name calling won't help Karthikeyan from not doing the same later in the season

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2012 03:05AM by matt3454.

matt3454 Wrote:
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> Really shows the difference in maturity between
> Seb and Schumacher though, as TV isn't the best
> place to be name calling other drivers in the
> field. Vettel is probably forgetting that the HRT
> are the cars that he will overtake the most this
> season, and name calling willing won't help
> Karthikeyan from not doing the same later in the
> season

Yes, I thought Seb had moved on from his 2010-esque immaturity, but obviously not.


airefresco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Stefano Domenicali has made quite an interesting
> point regarding the criticism towards Massa. If
> we cast our minds back to Malaysia 2008 and the
> situation was pretty much the same. Massa had had
> an awful start and after Malaysia there were all
> sorts of rumours flying around about Massa getting
> replaced and he wasn´t good enough, etc. Then he
> turned everything around and nearly won the
> championship that year.

2008 was a little different though, he was running in the points before an engine failure at Melbourne and was running 2nd in Malaysia before spinning out (which must give him nightmares), not to mention being on pole.

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X (@ed24f1)

This is the epicness that was the start to Massa's 2008



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Though in fairness he was in pole for Malaysia.

That move at Melbourne was hardly awful, Coulthard gave him no room and Massa had nowhere to go.

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X (@ed24f1)

Nonsense... Massa wasn't far enough alongside into the braking zone, it was too optimistic.

It's a classic example of what happens when a driver does a part overtake on a driver who can't be bullied out of the way.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2012 12:37PM by J i m.

DC could have, and should have given more room in that instance. Massa was not fully alongside, but he was close enough to justify a couple more inches of room more than the 0 DC gave. Not a great example Jim, DC was pretty crash happy in his final few years.

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

Where as Massa has been crash happy in all of his seasons. There's nothing wrong with the example it shows what happens when a driver attempts an over ambitious overtaking move. Massa isn't the sole culprit granted.. Hamilton is probably worse.

Sure when it works it's heroic... But you can't simply push other drivers out of the way and then blame them for not leaving room when you crash into them.

J i m Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nonsense... Massa wasn't far enough alongside into
> the braking zone, it was too optimistic.
>
> It's a classic example of what happens when a
> driver does a part overtake on a driver who can't
> be bullied out of the way.

Well Coulthard could've given more room through Turn 1 and still held position through Turn 2 though. Even if Massa's move was opportunistic it doesn't give DC the right to shut the door like that.

Also, realistically, Massa was more than 1 second per lap faster at that part of the race (check their fastest laps of the race), so what was to be gained from such a desperate defensive move? At best he slows both cars down for a few laps, at worst he ruins his own or both of their races. They weren't at half distance so it wasn't like he could've defended all the way home.

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X (@ed24f1)

Well no... Traditionally you needed much more than 1 second a lap advantage to make a overtake achievable... So DC was within his rights to race Massa and could well have held him until a next of pitstops for example. DC could have taken a wider line for sure but you are discounting the possibility even probability that he didn't see him especially in those cars with a zillion winglets and silly placed mirrors rearward visibility was at an all time low.

Basically that overtake was not going to work, DC was clearly ahead and the racing line was his to take as he pleased, had Massa been fully alongside into the braking zone then yes.. He'd have effectively won the corner and DC would have been forced to concede.

There are one or two drivers who seem to lack a bit of common sense when it comes to race craft.. Mostly Hamilton and Massa which was illustrate perfectly last year by the amount of times they swapped bodypaint. Like I said.. If the driver infront co-operates with their assertiveness then it's a spectacular overtake. But if not.. Then the driver behind in most instances should be responsible for avoiding a collosion (there are a few exceptions, e.g. Massa Hamilton at india). A driver with track position doesn't have to jump out of the way simply because the car behind has decided it has a devine right to overtake regardless.

Last year at Monaco Hamilton pulled off a brave move on Schumacher at Ste Devote, it was brave because it was late and Schumacher (for once) would have be within his rights to pretty much drive his normal line.. But he gave Hamilton the smallest of windows and the pass was relatively clean with the smallest of contacts.. Later in the race Hamilton tries the same move on Maldonaldo.. Maldonaldo takes his line and Hamilton has gone for a gap that wasn't really there and crash... You couldn't really blame Maldonaldo for that.. Similarly you couldn't blame Massa for his contact with Hamilton at Lowes.. Even though Hamilton managed to blame both of them.

quite honestly, i do think that the comparison between maldonado-hamilton (monaco 2011) and massa-coulthar (australia 2008) is the best one. Both hamilton in 2011 and massa in 2008 were not quite alongside, but the other car (maldonado, coulthard) should've given more space. I still can't fully understand why everyone blamed hamilton for the accident with maldonado. Maldonado was in his right to turn in, thats correct, but so was hamilton to stick to the inside.

and a good example of what the attacking car does wrong is grosjean vs schumacher at sepang. grosjean simply didnt turn in at all and there was no room for schuey to go, whereas coulthard and maldonado both had plenty of room on their left side (but were fully in their right to shut the door, as well).

J i m Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well no... Traditionally you needed much more than
> 1 second a lap advantage to make a overtake
> achievable... So DC was within his rights to race
> Massa and could well have held him until a next of
> pitstops for example. DC could have taken a wider
> line for sure but you are discounting the
> possibility even probability that he didn't see
> him especially in those cars with a zillion
> winglets and silly placed mirrors rearward
> visibility was at an all time low.

Fair point about the speed differential. I guess you can also take my argument the other way in that Massa could've waited as there was no rush. But still, consideing Coulthard didn't even attempt to defend, I can see why Massa thought he had an opportunity. Obviously he wasn't blameless, but I don't think you could say it was his fault more than Coulthard's.


mitadumapaga Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> quite honestly, i do think that the comparison
> between maldonado-hamilton (monaco 2011) and
> massa-coulthar (australia 2008) is the best one.
> Both hamilton in 2011 and massa in 2008 were not
> quite alongside, but the other car (maldonado,
> coulthard) should've given more space. I still
> can't fully understand why everyone blamed
> hamilton for the accident with maldonado.
> Maldonado was in his right to turn in, thats
> correct, but so was hamilton to stick to the
> inside.

The difference is that the braking zone is about half the length at Monaco compared to Melbourne Turn 1 I think. It's also a bit different at Monaco as it's more difficult to give room on the exit and it's not an established overtaking place.

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X (@ed24f1)

As Far as Mercedes go. I don’t think that there is a problem with the 'F'duct or rather a problem with their strategy to put so much emphasis on its development for qualy speed. It is a tire issue most definitely.
I also agree that they have had this problem from the beginning of their return to the sport. I believe that they have made more progress on this issue than we have been lead to believe but conditions have not allowed for us to see the degree of that progress. Temperatures were quiet extreme at Malaysia and the weather and it's unpredictability through all kind of spanners in the works as it always does when conditions are that bad.
Right now I think it's a combination of 'New car' and getting to know it. Also remember that on their long runs in winter testing they did not suffer any major problems with tires, which leads me to believe that the chassis of the car is fundamentally sound. A perfect scenario of course but in real race guise they may need to understand the car a lot better and obviously conditions allowing we may see that they 'Mercedes' have made very good progress but we will have to wait ... mm, just a tad too early to really see a proper picture with them I think.
Rememeber Michael made his intermediates last for twenty five laps I think but he just had no pace that suggests more than just tires but maybe set up as well. Melbourne was a better beromitor but obviously the lead Mercedes being taken out robbed us of a truer picture.


" Perfection is not a gift ....... it comes with practice."

Member of R.S.C.T Group



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2012 04:11PM by Isaint.