1980 F1 top speeds

Posted by Kaps 
Re: 1980 F1 top speeds
Date: November 13, 2005 04:51PM
Posted by: Kaps
Hmmm,it's not really working so far...the cars seem to be way to slow, and if I put a downforce/drag ratio anywhere near 1.5 I can't even reach 3rd gear!

And surely track grip shuold be more than 15500? Almost all the custom made MD's have that value between 16200 and 16900.
Re: 1980 F1 top speeds
Date: November 13, 2005 10:01PM
Posted by: JackiMatra
Try less downforce and a higher drag/downforce coefficient then. Perhaps ground effect didn't really increase drag and you should therefore have a high downforce but a relatively low drag/downforce coefficient.
With lower powered cars, you will also need to use much lower gear ratios then what is usual for recent years' cars. Try 16 to 18 for first gear.

The original GP3 track grip averaged out to about 16500. It varied from about 16000 to 16900, and with the original GP3 physics the cars were all much too quick around most of the tracks. Dropping the the track grip by about 1000 made most of the laptimes quite close to real 1998 laptimes for most tracks. The track grip that I use varies greatly from track to track, from as low as 14000 to as high as 17500, but generally averages out to around 15500 for all the tracks of a particular season.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/13/2005 10:19PM by JackiMatra.
Re: 1980 F1 top speeds
Date: November 13, 2005 10:06PM
Posted by: JackiMatra
Gear ratio for your own car, probably not.
Just make 6th gear only one higher and set the gear ratio for fifth high enough so that your car never shifts into 6th gear.With 5th and 6th gears only one apart, the upshift penalty should make it not worth geting into 6th gear even if you should accidentally do so.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/13/2005 10:21PM by JackiMatra.
Re: 1980 F1 top speeds
Date: November 13, 2005 10:14PM
Posted by: JackiMatra
Air resistamce for almost all tracks should be about 16600 and shouldn't vary by more than a couple of hundred from this figure for any track.
(Higher numbers mean less air resistance and lower number mean more air resistance.) I use a lower air resistance figure for Kyalami then usual, as it is located at a high altitude, and even though this should mean less air resistance, because of the high altitude the cars running there were actually oxygen-starved and simulating higher air resistance in GP3 has their engines react more sluggishly as in reality.
Re: 1980 F1 top speeds
Date: November 14, 2005 01:56PM
Posted by: b-tone
great thread guys, and thanks for all the tips Jacki!
for what other years have you made physics files? GP4 and GP3 use essentially the same physics, and I'm working on a 1979 mod now. our physics are ok now, but i'll go back to work on it soon.
one thing missing is the sliding - is there a way to have relaistic sliidng in gpx?

if its possible, can i have a look at your 1985 file please.

____
Tony

Re: 1980 F1 top speeds
Date: November 14, 2005 07:18PM
Posted by: Kaps
I'm still tweaking this here and there, but I'm not at all happy with the results so far.
Jacki, I'll check the air resistence figures in my tracks now. Hopefully that'll help, but the problem is that only with DF/drag ratio of 5.5 I've managed to get accurate laptimes. Still working on this...

b-tone could you possibly send your 1979 physics? It should be pretty much the same as 1980.
Re: 1980 F1 top speeds
Date: November 14, 2005 08:45PM
Posted by: Kaps
Ok, here's the latest development.

I've tested a bit on old Osterreichring. Track grip was at 16654, air resistance at 16685. The car was as follows: Dforce coeff. at 1902.41, Df/drag ratio at 5.52, mass at 674 kg and the set-up: wings at 5, 1st gear at 24, 2nd at 32, 3rd at 39, 4th at 45, 5th at 50 (6th at 51). I've managed top speed of 281 kph and the car generally felt ok and was competitive. This top speed is realistic for Osterreichring, methinks.

But the huge problem(as if you didn't know there would be one, eh?) we were all togehter (me and AI) some 10 secs off real pole time!! Now how the hell am I supposed to shave 10 secs off!?

The only idea I have is to tinker with timing & fine tuning in MD.
Re: 1980 F1 top speeds
Date: November 15, 2005 12:10AM
Posted by: JackiMatra
@ Kaps

I recall that I had trouble getting realistic laptimes at some tracks and the Osterreichgring was a particularly egregious case. This may be because the track in inaccurate (which can't be fixed short of making a new track) or because of something in the track magic data (which can be fixed very easily).

The real Osterreichring was in the mountains which means that the air resistance should be less than usual. I checked to see what I have in my magic data for this track for 1985, and I have the air resistance at 16950 and the track grip at 17500 (the largest number that I have ever used), and I seem to recall that the cars were still all too slow.

In the magic data, you can also adjust the laptimes (both the AI and your own) by changing the "timing factor?" and "timing factor finetune?" numbers. I don't recall which way does what, but give it a try with a really large change, for starters, both ways, and see what happens.

@ b-tone

F1 1977, 1985, 1991, 1993, and 1995-2002, and CART 2000 (road/street and oval), none of them really finished to my satisfaction, particularly the 1977 and 1991 F1 ones.

I don't think that you will ever get the GP3 AI to do any drifting, but you probably can yourself with either a low enough tyre grip or a high enough tyre slip angle. I certainly seem to recall finding myself going through some turns at nearly a 45 degree angle or soemthing of the sort when I used a slip angle of about -15, once upon a time.

Let me dig out my 1985 physics file and I'll post it here.


Re: 1980 F1 top speeds
Date: November 15, 2005 02:24AM
Posted by: Kaps
I've switched my testing to Buenos Aires and with too low values in the performance file I'm 6 secs off the pole in qualifying, and only 2 secs off the fastest lap in race. And there's still some room for experimenting.
I just might be getting there afterall!

Jacki, what do you reckon the values should be in the perf. files for Pole winner and for race winner. I usually have around 16450 for the best in qualifying and 16350 in race, with the rest down in % as they were in real life.
Re: 1980 F1 top speeds
Date: November 15, 2005 08:57AM
Posted by: b-tone
thanks jacki.
your 85, and 77 if possible would be nice.
i'll fiddle with the slip angles and see what happens. best i've got so far is more of losing, and catching the rear rather than drifting.


____
Tony

Re: 1980 F1 top speeds
Date: November 15, 2005 09:49AM
Posted by: JackiMatra
Because one obviously can't very well drift a high-downforce (or ground-effect) car at anywhere near the limit.

The downforce or ground-effect works when the car is traveling forward, put it sideways a bit and the downforce goes from 3500+ pounds to nil in a moment. You're either very good or very fortunate it you can save it.
Re: 1980 F1 top speeds
Date: November 15, 2005 10:09AM
Posted by: JackiMatra
I do season performance files for GP3, and not individual race performance files for GP3-2k.

Ignore my old 1995-2001 performance package because the performance values are much too low in that. I now set the mean of the top five rated drivers plus the mean of the top ten rated drivers divided by two to equal 16205 for the F1 race performance, and am very pleased with the results, competitively speaking. The qualifying perfomances are set so that the AI do realistic laptimes in comparison with the race laptimes taking into account differences in qualifying and race engine power. In the days of special qualifying tyres, expect an occasional super-qualifier, such as Senna, to have a qualifying perfomance in the vicinity or sometimes even quite a bit in excess of 17000.
Re: 1980 F1 top speeds
Date: November 15, 2005 10:21AM
Posted by: JackiMatra
Here are a few examples of GP3Edit F1 performance files that I have.

My final finished GP3 F1-2002 performance file:

** GP3edit - Performance File **

[Team #00]
Name=Ferrari,??
Performance=868,908,859
First Driver=1,Michael Schumacher,16682,2,17100,111
Second Driver=2,Rubens Barrichello,16220,8,16768,126

[Team #01]
Name=McLaren,Mercedes
Performance=861,894,8117
First Driver=3,David Coulthard,16252,4,16751,257
Second Driver=4,Kimi Raikkonen,16035,8,16613,176

[Team #02]
Name=Williams,BMW
Performance=866,899,4060
First Driver=5,Ralf Schumacher,16021,2,16955,165
Second Driver=6,Juan-Pablo Montoya,16126,11,16783,657

[Team #03]
Name=Sauber,Petronas
Performance=856,889,2705
First Driver=7,Nick Heidfeld,15736,9,16380,294
Second Driver=8,Felipe Massa,15760,12,16043,193

[Team #04]
Name=Jordan,Honda
Performance=849,879,6088
First Driver=9,Giancarlo Fisichella,15856,4,16390,238
Second Driver=10,Takuma Sato,15761,5,16034,260

[Team #05]
Name=BAR,Honda
Performance=849,879,10824
First Driver=11,Jacques Villeneuve,15861,2,16325,202
Second Driver=12,Olivier Panis,15918,6,16099,237

[Team #06]
Name=Renault,??
Performance=861,889,8117
First Driver=14,Jarno Trulli,15795,4,16486,248
Second Driver=15,Jenson Button,15988,4,16231,284

[Team #07]
Name=Jaguar,Cosworth
Performance=846,879,10824
First Driver=16,Eddie Irvine,16109,8,16146,505
Second Driver=17,Pedro de la Rosa,15580,8,15829,445

[Team #08]
Name=Arrows,Cosworth
Performance=847,879,12650
First Driver=20,Heinz-Harald Frentzen,15884,4,16167,214
Second Driver=21,Enrique Bernoldi,15525,2,15640,330

[Team #09]
Name=Minardi,Asiatech
Performance=821,849,7137
First Driver=22,Alex Yoong,15363,2,15045,441
Second Driver=23,Mark Webber,16077,8,15749,297

[Team #10]
Name=Toyota,??
Performance=849,883,7666
First Driver=24,Mika Salo,15836,5,16241,362
Second Driver=25,Allan McNish,15422,8,15852,380

[File]
Version=213
Re: 1980 F1 top speeds
Date: November 15, 2005 10:24AM
Posted by: JackiMatra
My final finished GP3 F1-2000 performance file:

** GP3edit - Performance File **

[Team #00]
Name=McLaren,Mercedes
Performance=810,820,2705
First Driver=1,Mika Hakkinen,16318,6,16730,134
Second Driver=2,David Coulthard,16236,7,16713,82

[Team #01]
Name=Ferrari,??
Performance=803,809,3383
First Driver=3,Michael Schumacher,16473,3,16859,157
Second Driver=4,Rubens Barrichello,16266,7,16629,141

[Team #02]
Name=Jordan,Mugen Honda
Performance=789,803,8117
First Driver=5,Heinz-Harald Frentzen,15925,10,16438,152
Second Driver=6,Jarno Trulli,15799,6,16435,226

[Team #03]
Name=Jaguar,Cosworth
Performance=790,798,4736
First Driver=7,Eddie Irvine,15720,7,16370,258
Second Driver=8,Johnny Herbert,15600,6,16108,236

[Team #04]
Name=Williams,BMW
Performance=788,797,7441
First Driver=9,Ralf Schumacher,16113,8,16463,229
Second Driver=10,Jenson Button,16014,13,16259,318

[Team #05]
Name=Benetton,Playlife
Performance=779,784,3383
First Driver=11,Giancarlo Fisichella,16042,8,16463,154
Second Driver=12,Alexander Wurz,15737,13,16330,154

[Team #06]
Name=Prost,Peugeot
Performance=763,770,11500
First Driver=14,Jean Alesi,15891,12,16282,144
Second Driver=15,Nick Heidfeld,15878,14,16132,335

[Team #07]
Name=Sauber,Petronas
Performance=772,776,2875
First Driver=16,Pedro Diniz,15771,11,16199,287
Second Driver=17,Mika Salo,15948,6,16391,218

[Team #08]
Name=Arrows,Supertec
Performance=779,784,8363
First Driver=18,Pedro de la Rosa,15819,7,16287,179
Second Driver=19,Jos Verstappen,15961,10,16262,224

[Team #09]
Name=Minardi,Fondmetal
Performance=755,755,6764
First Driver=20,Marc Gene,15787,11,16004,232
Second Driver=21,Gaston Mazzacane,15702,12,15652,211

[Team #10]
Name=BAR,Honda
Performance=798,805,5412
First Driver=22,Jacques Villeneuve,15905,8,16325,206
Second Driver=23,Ricardo Zonta,15717,8,15984,207

[File]
Version=213
Re: 1980 F1 top speeds
Date: November 15, 2005 10:25AM
Posted by: JackiMatra
My unfinished F1-1993 performance file:

** GP3edit - Performance File **

[Team #00]
Name=Williams,Renault
Performance=769,817,2875
First Driver=0,Damon Hill,16145,3,16977,160
Second Driver=2,Alain Prost,16306,2,17258,64

[Team #01]
Name=Benetton,Ford
Performance=742,775,5031
First Driver=5,Michael Schumacher,16326,4,16935,197
Second Driver=6,Riccardo Patrese,15954,3,16318,112

[Team #02]
Name=McLaren,Ford
Performance=746,777,5750
First Driver=7,Michael Andretti,15863,5,16035,160
Second Driver=8,Ayrton Senna,16546,5,16910,192

[Team #03]
Name=Footwork,Mugen Honda
Performance=720,755,5031
First Driver=9,Derek Warwick,16017,3,16087,280
Second Driver=10,Aguri Suzuki,15701,3,15989,197

[Team #04]
Name=Lotus,Ford
Performance=735,760,5935
First Driver=11,Alessandro Zanardi,15840,5,15654,240
Second Driver=12,Johnny Herbert,16036,7,15941,288

[Team #05]
Name=Jordan,Hart
Performance=715,748,8903
First Driver=14,Rubens Barrichello,16029,7,16078,365
Second Driver=15,Thierry Boutsen,15955,10,15735,280

[Team #06]
Name=Larrousse,Lamborghini
Performance=717,750,10063
First Driver=19,Philippe Alliot,15979,5,15788,280
Second Driver=20,Erik Comas,15930,5,15773,112

[Team #07]
Name=Minardi,Ford
Performance=735,755,4313
First Driver=23,Christian Fittipaldi,16012,5,15449,197
Second Driver=24,Fabrizio Barbazza,15886,7,14930,280

[Team #08]
Name=Ligier,Renault
Performance=759,795,1438
First Driver=25,Martin Brundle,15773,7,15785,160
Second Driver=26,Mark Blundell,15750,9,15734,256

[Team #09]
Name=Ferrari,??
Performance=748,788,10063
First Driver=27,Jean Alesi,15985,7,16153,320
Second Driver=28,Gerhard Berger,15983,7,16024,254

[Team #10]
Name=Sauber,Ilmor
Performance=741,778,9344
First Driver=29,Karl Wendlinger,15925,5,15970,128
Second Driver=30,J.J. Lehto,15890,7,15897,160

[File]
Version=213
Re: 1980 F1 top speeds
Date: November 15, 2005 10:27AM
Posted by: JackiMatra
My unfinished F1-1985 performance file:

** GP3edit - Performance File **

[Team #00]
Name=McLaren,TAG Porsche
Performance=814,900,8160
First Driver=1,Niki Lauda,15906,7,16182,300
Second Driver=2,Alain Prost,16489,3,16868,400

[Team #01]
Name=Tyrrell,Renault
Performance=785,875,4929
First Driver=3,Ivan Capelli,15651,11,13633,500
Second Driver=4,Martin Brundle,15621,9,14499,400

[Team #02]
Name=Williams,Honda
Performance=808,902,8160
First Driver=5,Nigel Mansell,16098,3,16762,300
Second Driver=6,Keke Rosberg,16142,6,16942,320

[Team #03]
Name=Brabham,BMW
Performance=807,897,10387
First Driver=7,Nelson Piquet,15958,8,17138,500
Second Driver=8,Marc Surer,15668,6,16192,400

[Team #04]
Name=Lotus,Renault
Performance=789,890,7188
First Driver=11,Elio de Angelis,16094,3,16699,300
Second Driver=12,Ayrton Senna,16187,4,17275,266

[Team #05]
Name=Renault,??
Performance=791,887,8160
First Driver=15,Patrick Tambay,15942,4,16216,200
Second Driver=16,Derek Warwick,15740,5,16255,200

[Team #06]
Name=Arrows,BMW
Performance=807,897,5750
First Driver=17,Thierry Boutsen,15700,5,16248,300
Second Driver=18,Gerhard Berger,15432,6,16089,360

[Team #07]
Name=Toleman,Hart
Performance=774,857,20700
First Driver=19,Teo Fabi,15583,11,16173,660
Second Driver=20,Piercarlo Ghinzani,15535,5,14783,300

[Team #08]
Name=Alfa Romeo,??
Performance=779,872,14375
First Driver=22,Riccardo Patrese,15808,5,16096,300
Second Driver=23,Eddie Cheever,15820,11,15964,560

[Team #09]
Name=Ligier,Renault
Performance=784,874,7667
First Driver=25,Andrea de Cesaris,15635,5,16358,300
Second Driver=26,Jacques Laffite,16073,5,15830,300

[Team #10]
Name=Ferrari,??
Performance=799,890,7907
First Driver=27,Michele Alboreto,16316,6,16736,360
Second Driver=28,Stefan Johansson,16178,4,16324,280

[File]
Version=213
Re: 1980 F1 top speeds
Date: November 15, 2005 10:31AM
Posted by: JackiMatra
My unfinished GP3 F1-1977 performance file:

** GP3edit - Performance File **

[Team #00]
Name=McLaren,Ford
Performance=480,480,6464
First Driver=1,James Hunt,16276,6,16698,256
Second Driver=2,Jochen Mass,16066,6,16295,256

[Team #01]
Name=Tyrrell,Ford
Performance=475,475,9469
First Driver=3,Ronnie Peterson,15734,6,16278,256
Second Driver=4,Patrick Depailler,16123,6,16356,256

[Team #02]
Name=Lotus,Ford
Performance=480,480,9757
First Driver=5,Mario Andretti,16461,6,16754,256
Second Driver=6,Gunnar Nilsson,16104,6,16248,256

[Team #03]
Name=Brabham,Alfa Romeo
Performance=520,520,7441
First Driver=7,John Watson,15123,6,16148,256
Second Driver=8,Hans-Joachim Stuck,15251,6,15839,256

[Team #04]
Name=Surtees,Ford
Performance=477,477,4600
First Driver=18,Vittorio Brambilla,15478,6,16168,256
Second Driver=19,Hans Binder,14896,6,15323,256

[Team #05]
Name=Ferrari,??
Performance=515,515,3066
First Driver=11,Niki Lauda,16000,6,16481,256
Second Driver=12,Carlos Reutemann,15653,6,16097,256

[Team #06]
Name=Shadow,Ford
Performance=480,480,8117
First Driver=16,Riccardo Patrese,15186,6,15944,256
Second Driver=17,Alan Jones,16075,6,16038,256

[Team #07]
Name=Wolf,Ford
Performance=480,480,5412
First Driver=20,Jody Scheckter,16487,6,16394,256
Second Driver=21,Carlos Pace,15823,6,16303,256

[Team #08]
Name=Ensign,Ford
Performance=473,473,9000
First Driver=22,Clay Regazzoni,15598,6,16158,256
Second Driver=23,Patrick Tambay,15549,6,16115,256

[Team #09]
Name=Ligier,Matra
Performance=510,510,8945
First Driver=25,Jacques Laffite,15588,6,15972,256
Second Driver=26,Jean-Pierre Jarier,14962,6,15548,256

[Team #10]
Name=Fittipaldi,Ford
Performance=472,472,8625
First Driver=28,Emerson Fittipaldi,15874,6,15876,256
Second Driver=29,Ingo Hoffmann,14860,6,15349,256

[File]
Version=213
Re: 1980 F1 top speeds
Date: November 15, 2005 10:50AM
Posted by: JackiMatra
My unfinished generic F1-1985 physics file:
(I hope to someday do different physics files for all the different cars, with matching performace files and magic data, so that it will be possible to drive all of the different cars with different physics and still get realistic performance and results.)


Chassis/General

Downforce Coefficient 1860
Downforce/Drag Ratio 1.85
Mass 634
X-axis Rotational Inertia 634
Y-axis Rotational Inertia 634
Z-axis Rotational Inertia 106
Front Track 1787
Rear Track 1651
Wheelbase 2784
CoG Height 277
Braking Force 5035
Weight Distribution 46/54

Engine/Drivetrain

Human Race Power 814
Human Qualy Power 920
Upshift "Penalty" 2560
Flywheel Inertia 0.03
Max RPM 12,000

Tires

Grip 1934
Slip Angle? -6.3
Re: 1980 F1 top speeds
Date: November 15, 2005 02:05PM
Posted by: b-tone
thanks Jacki.
waht about cc-lines - have you tryed altering them for better performance from older cars?
i've got no concrete facts, but it does play quite a part in how the cars drive - especially braking.

____
Tony

Re: 1980 F1 top speeds
Date: November 15, 2005 11:56PM
Posted by: JackiMatra
It's soemthing that I would very much like to see done, as there are a number of GP3 tracks that need work in this regard, and not just "older" ones. The Indianapolis road circuit, the Buenos Aires circuit used in F1 until 1998, and the Fundidora Park circuit, all have one turn at which even modern physics cars constantly run off the track, for example.

I believe that someone, possibly Larry O'Meara, if I recall, once mentioned a specific way that he found in making a CC-line that would make the AI brake earlier.

I'd like to give it a try, however, there is only so much time in a day, and I intend to finish all of my F1 and CART menu background sets for GP3 first.
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