Renault(Sorry, Lotus) drivers for 2012

Posted by EC83 
Re: Renault(Sorry, Lotus) drivers for 2012
Date: January 28, 2012 03:00PM
Posted by: SchueyFan
Joe_Satriani Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> With Ferrari, the issue was another. Although he
> always said the environment was a lot better than
> McLaren, which is very corporate, Ferrari on the
> other hand is very political. And after Ferrari
> brushed Schumacher aside in favour of Massa and
> Raikkonen, and after Raikkonen won the 2007
> championship, it seemed like they needed to prove
> that Massa was a good bet and put all the effort
> behind him. 2008 was a very odd year. If you look
> at the points progression that year, even with
> Raikkonen having a bad year, he was still only a
> few points behind Massa and Hamilton towards the
> end of the year. Had he won that race in Spa, he
> probably could've challenged for the
> championship.

Sure you can make the argument about Raikkonen almost being able to challenge for the 2008 championship, but you could also say the same thing about Massa in 2007. Without the engine failure at Italy and the qualifying debacle at Hungary, it could've been different - and may well have led to McLaren winning as Massa may've taken more points from him.

I think that if you follow Massa's career trajectory up to 2008, there is just as much evidence to suggest Massa improved and beat Kimi fair and square as to Kimi not putting in as much effort and falling behind. I guess there were elements of both. Realistically, Massa should've beat Kimi by more in 2008 if it wasn't for his own errors (he must have nightmares about Sepang), team errors and mechanical failures.





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Re: Renault(Sorry, Lotus) drivers for 2012
Date: January 28, 2012 05:42PM
Posted by: EC83
Regarding Kimi's form in 2008 - it's pretty clear to me his form just took a nosedive that year, and it's pretty clear to me that that's what enabled Massa to take the initiative in the team in the second half of that season. It's also clear that said nosedive in form came from a loss of interest in what he was doing - in the second half of the year he made a string of rookie mistakes. If you make mistakes like that then you're either prone to losing concentration or you're just a @#$%& driver - and you don't suddenly become @#$%& after being as good as Kimi was in the last few seasons before that one. Clearly after winning the title he relaxed and shifted his focus subconsciously, hence the sudden loss of motivation.
Nothing against Massa, but if Kimi had been on form in 2008 he would've ripped Massa to shreds all season.



Re: Renault(Sorry, Lotus) drivers for 2012
Date: January 29, 2012 04:51PM
Posted by: SchueyFan
EC83 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nothing against Massa, but if Kimi had been on
> form in 2008 he would've ripped Massa to shreds
> all season.

OK, but why didn't he tear Massa to shreds in 2007 then?





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Re: Renault(Sorry, Lotus) drivers for 2012
Date: January 29, 2012 05:13PM
Posted by: IWE
EC83 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> if Kimi had been on
> form in 2008 he would've ripped Massa to shreds
> all season.


And with same logic if Massa had been on form in 2007 he would have been world champion, right? ;-)


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Re: Renault(Sorry, Lotus) drivers for 2012
Date: January 29, 2012 07:17PM
Posted by: mitadumapaga
i'd say we better wait till mid 2012 and then go on with this discussion
Re: Renault(Sorry, Lotus) drivers for 2012
Date: January 29, 2012 07:22PM
Posted by: mitadumapaga
btw, i ve always wanted to share a view on 1 thing with ya.

in my view piquet jr. wasnt that rubbish driver as it turned out in the end. everyone claimed he was good 4 nothing driver and was logically fired, but I think he had talent enough to be at least in a mid field team. after the 2008 magny cours -race, where he passed alonso on pure pace basis. No different strategies, no team orders no tech. problem in nando's car, i thought--> this guy has a potential. Lets face it, it was only his 8th race and he managed to not only keep up with his way more experienced team mate, but also to overtake him.

i am just curious what your thoughts are on that.
Re: Renault(Sorry, Lotus) drivers for 2012
Date: January 29, 2012 07:48PM
Posted by: Slash
but Alonso can afford a bad race. the guy drives his life on every corner.. maybe he just had a bad day.

in F1 when you have a bad weekend your seat is in jeopardy.. Piquet had enough bad weekends to earn the criticism he received
Re: Renault(Sorry, Lotus) drivers for 2012
Date: January 29, 2012 08:29PM
Posted by: EC83
SchueyFan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> EC83 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Nothing against Massa, but if Kimi had been on
> > form in 2008 he would've ripped Massa to shreds
> > all season.
>
> OK, but why didn't he tear Massa to shreds in 2007
> then?

For part of 2007 he actually did. And the rest of the time, again, his motivation was questionable. Hence his dip in form between Melbourne and Magny-Cours, for example.


IWE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And with same logic if Massa had been on form in
> 2007 he would have been world champion, right? ;-)

No, because Massa has always made the most of his ability as a driver, and by the way he was on form in 2007.

Simply put, if you could combine Kimi's talent with Massa's motivation, you'd have something close to the ultimate F1 driver.



Re: Renault(Sorry, Lotus) drivers for 2012
Date: January 30, 2012 06:49AM
Posted by: SchueyFan
Piquet wasn't much worse than Petrov really. Inconsistent and crash-prone with occasional signs of talent. If he hadn't got his name scarred with the Singapore scandal, there's a good chance he'd still be in F1 somewhere as he had a lot of money behind him.

EC83 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For part of 2007 he actually did. And the rest of
> the time, again, his motivation was questionable.
> Hence his dip in form between Melbourne and
> Magny-Cours, for example.

Well I think Kimi's motivation is too often used as an excuse for getting beaten. Like someone said here previously, I'm sure the same excuse will appear again should Grosjean beat Kimi in 2012. As a Massa fan, that's quite frustrating, as, for many, it basically undermined Massa's performances in 2008.





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Re: Renault(Sorry, Lotus) drivers for 2012
Date: January 30, 2012 12:52PM
Posted by: vesuvius
SchueyFan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Piquet wasn't much worse than Petrov really.
> Inconsistent and crash-prone with occasional signs
> of talent. If he hadn't got his name scarred with
> the Singapore scandal, there's a good chance he'd
> still be in F1 somewhere as he had a lot of money
> behind him.
>
> EC83 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > For part of 2007 he actually did. And the rest
> of
> > the time, again, his motivation was
> questionable.
> > Hence his dip in form between Melbourne and
> > Magny-Cours, for example.
>
> Well I think Kimi's motivation is too often used
> as an excuse for getting beaten. Like someone said
> here previously, I'm sure the same excuse will
> appear again should Grosjean beat Kimi in 2012. As
> a Massa fan, that's quite frustrating, as, for
> many, it basically undermined Massa's performances
> in 2008.

yes I also think Kimi's motivation was not the problem...however Ferrari's cars never suited for Kimi as well as they did for Felipe. Kimi's driving style is known to be most gentle for the tyres and this was a bad thing because Ferrari was also gentle for it's tyres so Kimi couldn't get enough heat for the tyres over one lap that was his main difficulty over the ferrari years. on race pace he was if not always ...most of the time faster than Felipe. 2008 there is no doubt Massa did better job than Kimi.

I must say however that current Felipe is not driving in the same way he did 2006-2009, he is not as aggressive etc, there is something missing from his driving.


the fact is drivers do get beaten by their team mates....Hamilton has been beaten by Button, Button has been beaten by Barrichello,Fisischella and Hamilton, Alonso has been beaten by Trulli and Hamilton, Schumacher has been beaten by Rosberg, Massa has been beaten by Alonso,Kimi,Fisischella,Heidfeld...., Kimi has been beaten by Massa, Coulthard,Heidfeld...Heidfeld has been beaten by Alesi, Kubica...Kubica has been beaten by Heidfeld....do you see the point? no one is unbeatable, if things are not perfect for driver A then driver B can beat him, simple as that.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2012 01:00PM by vesuvius.
Re: Renault(Sorry, Lotus) drivers for 2012
Date: January 30, 2012 12:56PM
Posted by: marcl
Massa had been at Ferrari for years and we was used to the tyres, kimi moved to a new team and had to get used to different tyres. Kimi done the better job in 2007 moving to a new team and winning straight away.

Massa needs everything to be perfect for him to win. He needs the best car no race problems and start from pole.

2008 Kimi had a bad year, but had car problems as well and that cost him. Kimi should have won in France but had a car problem, Canada he would have come out in the lead but Lewis rammed him. In some races Kimi was miles ahead of Massa but for one reason or another did not get the result.

2008 Lewis done everything he could not to win the championship, yet he still won.
Re: Renault(Sorry, Lotus) drivers for 2012
Date: January 30, 2012 01:24PM
Posted by: J i m
Nelsinho Piquet was terrible. And not withstanding that he had a difficult car with an even more difficult team-mate to handle he made a complete pigs ear of F1.

Unlike todays rookies who have very limited testing time to get acclimatised to F1 equipment Piquet had ample test mileage behind him. He had tests with BMW Williams and BAR, and then he had about a year and half of testing with Renault before the testing restrictions came in.

In F3 he was suspected of cheating.

When in GP2, his entourage used to arrange private tests for him in comparable equipment at circuits before the races. Hence he had more preperation time than his rivals and yet he was still inconsistent and failed to win the title.

In F1 testing he was sometimes quick (which is meaningless at testing) yet also visibly inconsistent, at Barcelona testing pre-season in 2008 he managed to crash in the pit-lane entry (I know this because I was there and saw it through my own eyes).

Compared to his contemporaries he had ample seat time before and during his time as a F1 racing driver, yet more often than not he was slow and accident prone.

Compare him to the likes of Alguersauri, who basically skipped the GP2 level and came effectively came from F3 with bugger all F1 testing before his debut mid-season at Hungary 2009. Impressively Jamie was consistent enough to out race Buemi his team-mate at his first attempt. And whilst he hasn't always been particularly quick he's always been competent and usually consistent.

Even the likes of Petrov and Senna who whilst accident prone have managed to look more competent than Piquet and they've had far less testing than Piquet had, even Maldonaldo who more often than not looked poor in 2011 managed to look better than Piquet.

Re: Renault(Sorry, Lotus) drivers for 2012
Date: January 30, 2012 03:57PM
Posted by: mitadumapaga
someone mentioned here earlier that lewis did his utmost to loose the championship in 2008. Even if that's true this shouldn't undermine the achievments of Massa. He did great and was unlucky in SINGAPORE, HUNGARY and Malaysia as well. he would have continued and scored certaing 8 points, if he was so unlucky that exactly in the safety zone his car got beached in the gravel. There's 28 points lost just like that. And btw in the closing stages of the 2011 season masssa actually upped his game significantly. He was on par with alonso at all qualys and in the first stint of several races as well. Then of course lewis interfered with him several times and spoilt the rest of the race for him (e.g. india)
Re: Renault(Sorry, Lotus) drivers for 2012
Date: January 30, 2012 04:01PM
Posted by: mitadumapaga
and one last thing.... in 2010 massa was 31 points behind alonso pre Hockenheim. Had the team not interfered and given team orders, massa would've closed the gap to alonso to 24, which in the old system is as good as 9 points. so.. there you go.

brundle said it pretty spot on in my view at suzuka last year. Massa had to lift off to let alonso by and brundle said " yeah, there he goes. they destroyed his psychics totally".

But still, i really hope he can come back in 2012 and at least score a win or two... his last victory was probably the saddest moment of his f1 career so...i route for the guy
Re: Renault(Sorry, Lotus) drivers for 2012
Date: January 30, 2012 04:42PM
Posted by: SchueyFan
marcl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Massa needs everything to be perfect for him to
> win. He needs the best car no race problems and
> start from pole.

Have another look at the 2009 season! Massa was arguably the 2nd best driver in the field behind Button up until his accident.

For example; charging from 13th to 3rd in 15 laps at China before an electrical problem, holding off Vettel and setting a faster lap than both Red Bulls at Barcelona, maximising his strategy at Silverstone etc.

Massa probably could've won a race or two in late 2009 if it wasn't for his accident, considering Kimi's form, the fact Ferrari stopped development after the accident and Massa's past form at some tracks - e.g. Hungary and Valencia.


marcl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 2008 Kimi had a bad year, but had car problems as
> well and that cost him. Kimi should have won in
> France but had a car problem, Canada he would have
> come out in the lead but Lewis rammed him. In
> some races Kimi was miles ahead of Massa but for
> one reason or another did not get the result.

Sure Kimi had car issues, but I don't think they were any more costly than Massa's were - maybe less.


mitadumapaga Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> brundle said it pretty spot on in my view at
> suzuka last year. Massa had to lift off to let
> alonso by and brundle said " yeah, there he goes.
> they destroyed his psychics totally".

That was a stupid comment from Brundle, Alonso was in the DRS and thus had a big speed advantage, and no driver in the field would've closed the door on their team-mate in that situation and risked an enormous crash.





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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2012 04:44PM by SchueyFan.
Re: Renault(Sorry, Lotus) drivers for 2012
Date: January 30, 2012 05:33PM
Posted by: EC83
SchueyFan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well I think Kimi's motivation is too often used
> as an excuse for getting beaten.

How can it be an excuse when it's genuinely what happened? The facts about Kimi's best drives speak for themselves. It never ceases to surprise me that people argue that he's not exceptional.

Regarding Massa, I'm not sure how anyone can argue he was the 2nd best driver in early 2009. As well as Kimi, there was Alonso, Vettel, Rubens and Lewis driving, all of who are an echelon above Massa. Sorry.



Re: Renault(Sorry, Lotus) drivers for 2012
Date: January 30, 2012 05:54PM
Posted by: Incident 2k9
Massa started 2009 well, but by no means better than Button, Barrichello and Vettel. If you remember, at Melbourne that year Barrichello ballsed up the start, and still carved his way though to second. I'd even put Trulli up there, as he got two 3rd places in the first four races (and the Toyota wasn't particularly quick either, especiallty in Monaco). So I'd definitely think these guys started '09 better than Massa. Rosberg deserves a mention as well.

Back to Piquet Jr., he was really awful. I think Jim summed him up well, and although Grosjean scored no points either I've noticed (looking at the old timesheets) that he was quite quick at Spa (Practise 2&3) in a car that looked like a tank. Not too bad...



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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2012 07:38PM by Incident 2k9.
Re: Renault(Sorry, Lotus) drivers for 2012
Date: January 30, 2012 06:14PM
Posted by: SchueyFan
Incident 2k9 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Massa started 2009 well, but by no means better
> than Button, Barrichello and Vettel. If you
> remember, at Melbourne that year Barrichello
> ballsed up the start, and still carved his way
> though to second. I'd even put Trulli up there, as
> he got two 3rd places in the first four races (and
> the Toyota wasn't particularly quick either,
> especiallty in Monaco). So I'd definitely think
> these guys started '09 better than Massa. Rosberg
> deserves a mention as well.

Of course Button was #1.

Vettel made crucial mistakes at Melbourne, Turkey and Monaco, as well as an average race at Barcelona, so I wouldn't conclusively put him above Massa for early 2009. Barrichello was solid, but I would say he'd need to have won a race to be considered for 2nd. He also had a scrappy race at Turkey, and a poor start at Melbourne as you say.

Trulli and Rosberg would be other potential candidates, I agree.


EC83 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How can it be an excuse when it's genuinely what
> happened? The facts about Kimi's best drives speak
> for themselves. It never ceases to surprise me
> that people argue that he's not exceptional.

Well you can't empirically prove a loss of motivation though. I never argued he wasn't exceptional, just that it is too simplistic to solely blame motivation for Massa beating Kimi in 2008 and 2009.


EC83 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Regarding Massa, I'm not sure how anyone can argue
> he was the 2nd best driver in early 2009. As well
> as Kimi, there was Alonso, Vettel, Rubens and
> Lewis driving, all of who are an echelon above
> Massa. Sorry.

Just because they were "driving" doesn't mean they were better in early 2009. Lewis made a few mistakes, had a poor attitude and was even beaten by Kovalainen more regularly, and Vettel made plenty of mistakes as I mentioned above. You could almost say Kimi was equal with Massa, but I don't think you could put him ahead considering Massa scored 22 points to 10.

Alonso was also good in a poor car, and another candidate for Top 5 in that period.





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Re: Renault(Sorry, Lotus) drivers for 2012
Date: January 31, 2012 02:22AM
Posted by: vesuvius
2009 massa drove very well indeed but Kimi was right there with him, yes points say 22-10 but Kimi`s points didn`t reflect his true speed at all. Kimi outqualified Massa 6-4 and in those races he was usually either in front or right behind massa.Kimi also suffered a lot more tactical problems from the team, example malaysia race and qualifying at barcelona.

massa on the other hand got huge advantage from the tactics...when he qualified for example 11th and kimi 9th with half a second faster time but massa got a chance to fill his car with fuel and kimi not so there was a huge advantage.

Also to claim Massa would have done better job at hungary than Kimi is laughable, when he was already miles slower during the qualifying when he had that horrible accident, he was out of top ten and couldn`t have beaten kimi during the race.

don`t get me wrong, I think massa was as good as Kimi during their time together but in my view it was mainly due because Kimi didn`t do as well as he did at mclaren, his driving was like massa`s today...far from his true potential.


I hope we do see massa of 2006-09 back because if not, he will be beaten by Kimi and lotus this year..but some performances at the end of 2011 gave some promises of better tomorrow for him.
Re: Renault(Sorry, Lotus) drivers for 2012
Date: January 31, 2012 02:44AM
Posted by: EC83
SchueyFan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well you can't empirically prove a loss of
> motivation though.

No, but you can note obvious signs of it which couldn't really be signs of anything else. I also remember Kimi saying in an interview early on in his career that he wanted to win the Championship, but only once, and that he'd probably stop soon after he'd won it if he ever did. Again, his loss of form in 2008 correlates exactly with this prediction.

> Just because they were "driving" doesn't mean they
> were better in early 2009.

Yes it does. Each of them(except maybe Kimi) were doing arguably better than Massa was at that point, considering their circumstances. Alonso and Lewis had terrible cars and Vettel was on a steep learning curve with a new team(and still pretty inexperienced in F1 too at that point), although he still pulled off a performance in China which was better than anything Massa managed that season. Rubens also had times(like in Barcelona) when he outshone anything Massa was doing.



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