Renault(Sorry, Lotus) drivers for 2012
Posted by EC83
Joe_Satriani Wrote:
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> With Ferrari, the issue was another. Although he
> always said the environment was a lot better than
> McLaren, which is very corporate, Ferrari on the
> other hand is very political. And after Ferrari
> brushed Schumacher aside in favour of Massa and
> Raikkonen, and after Raikkonen won the 2007
> championship, it seemed like they needed to prove
> that Massa was a good bet and put all the effort
> behind him. 2008 was a very odd year. If you look
> at the points progression that year, even with
> Raikkonen having a bad year, he was still only a
> few points behind Massa and Hamilton towards the
> end of the year. Had he won that race in Spa, he
> probably could've challenged for the
> championship.
Sure you can make the argument about Raikkonen almost being able to challenge for the 2008 championship, but you could also say the same thing about Massa in 2007. Without the engine failure at Italy and the qualifying debacle at Hungary, it could've been different - and may well have led to McLaren winning as Massa may've taken more points from him.
I think that if you follow Massa's career trajectory up to 2008, there is just as much evidence to suggest Massa improved and beat Kimi fair and square as to Kimi not putting in as much effort and falling behind. I guess there were elements of both. Realistically, Massa should've beat Kimi by more in 2008 if it wasn't for his own errors (he must have nightmares about Sepang), team errors and mechanical failures.
X (@ed24f1)
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> With Ferrari, the issue was another. Although he
> always said the environment was a lot better than
> McLaren, which is very corporate, Ferrari on the
> other hand is very political. And after Ferrari
> brushed Schumacher aside in favour of Massa and
> Raikkonen, and after Raikkonen won the 2007
> championship, it seemed like they needed to prove
> that Massa was a good bet and put all the effort
> behind him. 2008 was a very odd year. If you look
> at the points progression that year, even with
> Raikkonen having a bad year, he was still only a
> few points behind Massa and Hamilton towards the
> end of the year. Had he won that race in Spa, he
> probably could've challenged for the
> championship.
Sure you can make the argument about Raikkonen almost being able to challenge for the 2008 championship, but you could also say the same thing about Massa in 2007. Without the engine failure at Italy and the qualifying debacle at Hungary, it could've been different - and may well have led to McLaren winning as Massa may've taken more points from him.
I think that if you follow Massa's career trajectory up to 2008, there is just as much evidence to suggest Massa improved and beat Kimi fair and square as to Kimi not putting in as much effort and falling behind. I guess there were elements of both. Realistically, Massa should've beat Kimi by more in 2008 if it wasn't for his own errors (he must have nightmares about Sepang), team errors and mechanical failures.
X (@ed24f1)
Regarding Kimi's form in 2008 - it's pretty clear to me his form just took a nosedive that year, and it's pretty clear to me that that's what enabled Massa to take the initiative in the team in the second half of that season. It's also clear that said nosedive in form came from a loss of interest in what he was doing - in the second half of the year he made a string of rookie mistakes. If you make mistakes like that then you're either prone to losing concentration or you're just a @#$%& driver - and you don't suddenly become @#$%& after being as good as Kimi was in the last few seasons before that one. Clearly after winning the title he relaxed and shifted his focus subconsciously, hence the sudden loss of motivation.
Nothing against Massa, but if Kimi had been on form in 2008 he would've ripped Massa to shreds all season.
Nothing against Massa, but if Kimi had been on form in 2008 he would've ripped Massa to shreds all season.
EC83 Wrote:
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> Nothing against Massa, but if Kimi had been on
> form in 2008 he would've ripped Massa to shreds
> all season.
OK, but why didn't he tear Massa to shreds in 2007 then?
X (@ed24f1)
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> Nothing against Massa, but if Kimi had been on
> form in 2008 he would've ripped Massa to shreds
> all season.
OK, but why didn't he tear Massa to shreds in 2007 then?
X (@ed24f1)
EC83 Wrote:
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> if Kimi had been on
> form in 2008 he would've ripped Massa to shreds
> all season.
And with same logic if Massa had been on form in 2007 he would have been world champion, right?
Kimi, so, Massa Fernando Sebastian is faster than you. Can you confirm you understood that message?
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> if Kimi had been on
> form in 2008 he would've ripped Massa to shreds
> all season.
And with same logic if Massa had been on form in 2007 he would have been world champion, right?
SchueyFan Wrote:
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> EC83 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Nothing against Massa, but if Kimi had been on
> > form in 2008 he would've ripped Massa to shreds
> > all season.
>
> OK, but why didn't he tear Massa to shreds in 2007
> then?
For part of 2007 he actually did. And the rest of the time, again, his motivation was questionable. Hence his dip in form between Melbourne and Magny-Cours, for example.
IWE Wrote:
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> And with same logic if Massa had been on form in
> 2007 he would have been world champion, right?
No, because Massa has always made the most of his ability as a driver, and by the way he was on form in 2007.
Simply put, if you could combine Kimi's talent with Massa's motivation, you'd have something close to the ultimate F1 driver.
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> EC83 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Nothing against Massa, but if Kimi had been on
> > form in 2008 he would've ripped Massa to shreds
> > all season.
>
> OK, but why didn't he tear Massa to shreds in 2007
> then?
For part of 2007 he actually did. And the rest of the time, again, his motivation was questionable. Hence his dip in form between Melbourne and Magny-Cours, for example.
IWE Wrote:
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> And with same logic if Massa had been on form in
> 2007 he would have been world champion, right?
No, because Massa has always made the most of his ability as a driver, and by the way he was on form in 2007.
Simply put, if you could combine Kimi's talent with Massa's motivation, you'd have something close to the ultimate F1 driver.
Piquet wasn't much worse than Petrov really. Inconsistent and crash-prone with occasional signs of talent. If he hadn't got his name scarred with the Singapore scandal, there's a good chance he'd still be in F1 somewhere as he had a lot of money behind him.
EC83 Wrote:
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> For part of 2007 he actually did. And the rest of
> the time, again, his motivation was questionable.
> Hence his dip in form between Melbourne and
> Magny-Cours, for example.
Well I think Kimi's motivation is too often used as an excuse for getting beaten. Like someone said here previously, I'm sure the same excuse will appear again should Grosjean beat Kimi in 2012. As a Massa fan, that's quite frustrating, as, for many, it basically undermined Massa's performances in 2008.
X (@ed24f1)
EC83 Wrote:
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> For part of 2007 he actually did. And the rest of
> the time, again, his motivation was questionable.
> Hence his dip in form between Melbourne and
> Magny-Cours, for example.
Well I think Kimi's motivation is too often used as an excuse for getting beaten. Like someone said here previously, I'm sure the same excuse will appear again should Grosjean beat Kimi in 2012. As a Massa fan, that's quite frustrating, as, for many, it basically undermined Massa's performances in 2008.
X (@ed24f1)
Nelsinho Piquet was terrible. And not withstanding that he had a difficult car with an even more difficult team-mate to handle he made a complete pigs ear of F1.
Unlike todays rookies who have very limited testing time to get acclimatised to F1 equipment Piquet had ample test mileage behind him. He had tests with BMW Williams and BAR, and then he had about a year and half of testing with Renault before the testing restrictions came in.
In F3 he was suspected of cheating.
When in GP2, his entourage used to arrange private tests for him in comparable equipment at circuits before the races. Hence he had more preperation time than his rivals and yet he was still inconsistent and failed to win the title.
In F1 testing he was sometimes quick (which is meaningless at testing) yet also visibly inconsistent, at Barcelona testing pre-season in 2008 he managed to crash in the pit-lane entry (I know this because I was there and saw it through my own eyes).
Compared to his contemporaries he had ample seat time before and during his time as a F1 racing driver, yet more often than not he was slow and accident prone.
Compare him to the likes of Alguersauri, who basically skipped the GP2 level and came effectively came from F3 with bugger all F1 testing before his debut mid-season at Hungary 2009. Impressively Jamie was consistent enough to out race Buemi his team-mate at his first attempt. And whilst he hasn't always been particularly quick he's always been competent and usually consistent.
Even the likes of Petrov and Senna who whilst accident prone have managed to look more competent than Piquet and they've had far less testing than Piquet had, even Maldonaldo who more often than not looked poor in 2011 managed to look better than Piquet.
Unlike todays rookies who have very limited testing time to get acclimatised to F1 equipment Piquet had ample test mileage behind him. He had tests with BMW Williams and BAR, and then he had about a year and half of testing with Renault before the testing restrictions came in.
In F3 he was suspected of cheating.
When in GP2, his entourage used to arrange private tests for him in comparable equipment at circuits before the races. Hence he had more preperation time than his rivals and yet he was still inconsistent and failed to win the title.
In F1 testing he was sometimes quick (which is meaningless at testing) yet also visibly inconsistent, at Barcelona testing pre-season in 2008 he managed to crash in the pit-lane entry (I know this because I was there and saw it through my own eyes).
Compared to his contemporaries he had ample seat time before and during his time as a F1 racing driver, yet more often than not he was slow and accident prone.
Compare him to the likes of Alguersauri, who basically skipped the GP2 level and came effectively came from F3 with bugger all F1 testing before his debut mid-season at Hungary 2009. Impressively Jamie was consistent enough to out race Buemi his team-mate at his first attempt. And whilst he hasn't always been particularly quick he's always been competent and usually consistent.
Even the likes of Petrov and Senna who whilst accident prone have managed to look more competent than Piquet and they've had far less testing than Piquet had, even Maldonaldo who more often than not looked poor in 2011 managed to look better than Piquet.
marcl Wrote:
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> Massa needs everything to be perfect for him to
> win. He needs the best car no race problems and
> start from pole.
Have another look at the 2009 season! Massa was arguably the 2nd best driver in the field behind Button up until his accident.
For example; charging from 13th to 3rd in 15 laps at China before an electrical problem, holding off Vettel and setting a faster lap than both Red Bulls at Barcelona, maximising his strategy at Silverstone etc.
Massa probably could've won a race or two in late 2009 if it wasn't for his accident, considering Kimi's form, the fact Ferrari stopped development after the accident and Massa's past form at some tracks - e.g. Hungary and Valencia.
marcl Wrote:
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> 2008 Kimi had a bad year, but had car problems as
> well and that cost him. Kimi should have won in
> France but had a car problem, Canada he would have
> come out in the lead but Lewis rammed him. In
> some races Kimi was miles ahead of Massa but for
> one reason or another did not get the result.
Sure Kimi had car issues, but I don't think they were any more costly than Massa's were - maybe less.
mitadumapaga Wrote:
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> brundle said it pretty spot on in my view at
> suzuka last year. Massa had to lift off to let
> alonso by and brundle said " yeah, there he goes.
> they destroyed his psychics totally".
That was a stupid comment from Brundle, Alonso was in the DRS and thus had a big speed advantage, and no driver in the field would've closed the door on their team-mate in that situation and risked an enormous crash.
X (@ed24f1)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2012 04:44PM by SchueyFan.
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> Massa needs everything to be perfect for him to
> win. He needs the best car no race problems and
> start from pole.
Have another look at the 2009 season! Massa was arguably the 2nd best driver in the field behind Button up until his accident.
For example; charging from 13th to 3rd in 15 laps at China before an electrical problem, holding off Vettel and setting a faster lap than both Red Bulls at Barcelona, maximising his strategy at Silverstone etc.
Massa probably could've won a race or two in late 2009 if it wasn't for his accident, considering Kimi's form, the fact Ferrari stopped development after the accident and Massa's past form at some tracks - e.g. Hungary and Valencia.
marcl Wrote:
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> 2008 Kimi had a bad year, but had car problems as
> well and that cost him. Kimi should have won in
> France but had a car problem, Canada he would have
> come out in the lead but Lewis rammed him. In
> some races Kimi was miles ahead of Massa but for
> one reason or another did not get the result.
Sure Kimi had car issues, but I don't think they were any more costly than Massa's were - maybe less.
mitadumapaga Wrote:
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> brundle said it pretty spot on in my view at
> suzuka last year. Massa had to lift off to let
> alonso by and brundle said " yeah, there he goes.
> they destroyed his psychics totally".
That was a stupid comment from Brundle, Alonso was in the DRS and thus had a big speed advantage, and no driver in the field would've closed the door on their team-mate in that situation and risked an enormous crash.
X (@ed24f1)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2012 04:44PM by SchueyFan.
SchueyFan Wrote:
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> Well I think Kimi's motivation is too often used
> as an excuse for getting beaten.
How can it be an excuse when it's genuinely what happened? The facts about Kimi's best drives speak for themselves. It never ceases to surprise me that people argue that he's not exceptional.
Regarding Massa, I'm not sure how anyone can argue he was the 2nd best driver in early 2009. As well as Kimi, there was Alonso, Vettel, Rubens and Lewis driving, all of who are an echelon above Massa. Sorry.
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> Well I think Kimi's motivation is too often used
> as an excuse for getting beaten.
How can it be an excuse when it's genuinely what happened? The facts about Kimi's best drives speak for themselves. It never ceases to surprise me that people argue that he's not exceptional.
Regarding Massa, I'm not sure how anyone can argue he was the 2nd best driver in early 2009. As well as Kimi, there was Alonso, Vettel, Rubens and Lewis driving, all of who are an echelon above Massa. Sorry.
Incident 2k9 Wrote:
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> Massa started 2009 well, but by no means better
> than Button, Barrichello and Vettel. If you
> remember, at Melbourne that year Barrichello
> ballsed up the start, and still carved his way
> though to second. I'd even put Trulli up there, as
> he got two 3rd places in the first four races (and
> the Toyota wasn't particularly quick either,
> especiallty in Monaco). So I'd definitely think
> these guys started '09 better than Massa. Rosberg
> deserves a mention as well.
Of course Button was #1.
Vettel made crucial mistakes at Melbourne, Turkey and Monaco, as well as an average race at Barcelona, so I wouldn't conclusively put him above Massa for early 2009. Barrichello was solid, but I would say he'd need to have won a race to be considered for 2nd. He also had a scrappy race at Turkey, and a poor start at Melbourne as you say.
Trulli and Rosberg would be other potential candidates, I agree.
EC83 Wrote:
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> How can it be an excuse when it's genuinely what
> happened? The facts about Kimi's best drives speak
> for themselves. It never ceases to surprise me
> that people argue that he's not exceptional.
Well you can't empirically prove a loss of motivation though. I never argued he wasn't exceptional, just that it is too simplistic to solely blame motivation for Massa beating Kimi in 2008 and 2009.
EC83 Wrote:
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> Regarding Massa, I'm not sure how anyone can argue
> he was the 2nd best driver in early 2009. As well
> as Kimi, there was Alonso, Vettel, Rubens and
> Lewis driving, all of who are an echelon above
> Massa. Sorry.
Just because they were "driving" doesn't mean they were better in early 2009. Lewis made a few mistakes, had a poor attitude and was even beaten by Kovalainen more regularly, and Vettel made plenty of mistakes as I mentioned above. You could almost say Kimi was equal with Massa, but I don't think you could put him ahead considering Massa scored 22 points to 10.
Alonso was also good in a poor car, and another candidate for Top 5 in that period.
X (@ed24f1)
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> Massa started 2009 well, but by no means better
> than Button, Barrichello and Vettel. If you
> remember, at Melbourne that year Barrichello
> ballsed up the start, and still carved his way
> though to second. I'd even put Trulli up there, as
> he got two 3rd places in the first four races (and
> the Toyota wasn't particularly quick either,
> especiallty in Monaco). So I'd definitely think
> these guys started '09 better than Massa. Rosberg
> deserves a mention as well.
Of course Button was #1.
Vettel made crucial mistakes at Melbourne, Turkey and Monaco, as well as an average race at Barcelona, so I wouldn't conclusively put him above Massa for early 2009. Barrichello was solid, but I would say he'd need to have won a race to be considered for 2nd. He also had a scrappy race at Turkey, and a poor start at Melbourne as you say.
Trulli and Rosberg would be other potential candidates, I agree.
EC83 Wrote:
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> How can it be an excuse when it's genuinely what
> happened? The facts about Kimi's best drives speak
> for themselves. It never ceases to surprise me
> that people argue that he's not exceptional.
Well you can't empirically prove a loss of motivation though. I never argued he wasn't exceptional, just that it is too simplistic to solely blame motivation for Massa beating Kimi in 2008 and 2009.
EC83 Wrote:
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> Regarding Massa, I'm not sure how anyone can argue
> he was the 2nd best driver in early 2009. As well
> as Kimi, there was Alonso, Vettel, Rubens and
> Lewis driving, all of who are an echelon above
> Massa. Sorry.
Just because they were "driving" doesn't mean they were better in early 2009. Lewis made a few mistakes, had a poor attitude and was even beaten by Kovalainen more regularly, and Vettel made plenty of mistakes as I mentioned above. You could almost say Kimi was equal with Massa, but I don't think you could put him ahead considering Massa scored 22 points to 10.
Alonso was also good in a poor car, and another candidate for Top 5 in that period.
X (@ed24f1)
SchueyFan Wrote:
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> Well you can't empirically prove a loss of
> motivation though.
No, but you can note obvious signs of it which couldn't really be signs of anything else. I also remember Kimi saying in an interview early on in his career that he wanted to win the Championship, but only once, and that he'd probably stop soon after he'd won it if he ever did. Again, his loss of form in 2008 correlates exactly with this prediction.
> Just because they were "driving" doesn't mean they
> were better in early 2009.
Yes it does. Each of them(except maybe Kimi) were doing arguably better than Massa was at that point, considering their circumstances. Alonso and Lewis had terrible cars and Vettel was on a steep learning curve with a new team(and still pretty inexperienced in F1 too at that point), although he still pulled off a performance in China which was better than anything Massa managed that season. Rubens also had times(like in Barcelona) when he outshone anything Massa was doing.
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> Well you can't empirically prove a loss of
> motivation though.
No, but you can note obvious signs of it which couldn't really be signs of anything else. I also remember Kimi saying in an interview early on in his career that he wanted to win the Championship, but only once, and that he'd probably stop soon after he'd won it if he ever did. Again, his loss of form in 2008 correlates exactly with this prediction.
> Just because they were "driving" doesn't mean they
> were better in early 2009.
Yes it does. Each of them(except maybe Kimi) were doing arguably better than Massa was at that point, considering their circumstances. Alonso and Lewis had terrible cars and Vettel was on a steep learning curve with a new team(and still pretty inexperienced in F1 too at that point), although he still pulled off a performance in China which was better than anything Massa managed that season. Rubens also had times(like in Barcelona) when he outshone anything Massa was doing.
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