2011 Italian GP **SPOILERS** + Race Statistics

Posted by andreigp4 
Re: 2011 Italian GP **SPOILERS** + Race Statistics
Date: September 13, 2011 02:08PM
Posted by: J i m
Wrong. F1 has always been as much about technology as it has been about racing.

Re: 2011 Italian GP **SPOILERS** + Race Statistics
Date: September 13, 2011 02:33PM
Posted by: truecrysis
Hamilton wasn't his usual aggressive self. Personally i think there is not a problem with saying "this incident was x's fault", if it actually was their fault. I've never said Hamilton should change his style or overtake less, more "learn from what he did wrong", such as where it is sensible to overtake, not overtake etc. Maldonado in monaco was his fault, thats fair enough to say, and he should learn that type of move doesnt work, rather than just stop overtaking.

And im probably not experienced enough to say, but yes whilst F1 as always been about technology and the machinery coupled with the race drivers, its the small gadgets that arent necessary


Highest position: 2nd - Belgian GP, British GP S8

Highest position: 1st x2 - British GP S1, Austrian GP S2
Re: 2011 Italian GP **SPOILERS** + Race Statistics
Date: September 13, 2011 02:40PM
Posted by: Isaint
Right. The technology has always been fundamentally aimed at safety first and then ways to make the engines and stability more efficient it has nothing to do with gadgets, these are after thoughts because without them the engine is still the same engine therefore it has no more advantage or disadvantage, and as such there is no technological advancement.



" Perfection is not a gift ....... it comes with practice."

Member of R.S.C.T Group



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2011 02:40PM by Isaint.
Re: 2011 Italian GP **SPOILERS** + Race Statistics
Date: September 13, 2011 03:03PM
Posted by: J i m
Colin Chapman was thinking of safety when he strove to make his cars lighter and lighter with the result that they often fell apart? Yes that technology was all about safety wasn't it? I think perhaps some people may not be aware of the history of this sport. Technology has always been about going faster. Technology wasn't truly applied properly to safety until post Imola 1994.

There have always been gadets or gimmicks or some sort anyway. I'm sure when they first introduced wings, someone some where would have scoffed and decided it had nothing to do with racing. Turbo boost effectively achieves the same result as DRS, a boost in straight line speed, are we devaluing that as a gimmick or gadget?

There are many asumptions being made here that are too easy to pull apart with historical knowledge.

There isn't anything wrong with scrutinising an incident and apportioning blame, everyone does that, it's when people insist on scrutinising every aspect of a persons personality to explain it. Hamilton has made some mistakes, at Monaco his attitude was atrocious, since then he's been mature, yet people are scrutinising his personal life in a fruitless effort to explain his continuing mistakes or misfortune. I think he has every right to be miffed, when a select group of people effectively accuse him of crashing into other cars because he happens to go out with a pussy cat doll or whatever it is. It's not relevant. He makes a mistake, fine that's life, let's move on please.

Re: 2011 Italian GP **SPOILERS** + Race Statistics
Date: September 13, 2011 06:05PM
Posted by: Isaint
The F1 oversight body, FIA, began introducing safety regulations in the late 1960s, starting with rules on rollbars, dual braking systems, seatbelts, fire protection, protective clothing, helmets and safe fuel tanks. This soon advanced to safety inspections at racing circuits and the introduction of flag signaling codes. FIA continued to address race safety, implementing organized race marshalling, mandatory five-second cockpit evacuation by drivers and fire-resistant clothing. F1 had a fatality free record for 12 years, until the horrific weekend in 1994, when both Roland Ratzenburger and legendary driver Ayrton Senna died in one race weekend at Imola. Since then, the focus of teams and FIA over the last two decades has been the quest for safety, balancing it with the quest for speed. F1 cars nowadays are faster than ever, as well as safer. However, in a sport where speed is of the essence, it is always going to be difficult to balance safety with speed.

As you can see the re-dress to safety was instituted a lot sooner than 1994.
In any event, the technology behind F1 whether it be for safety or speed is not in question. It's merely the way that it is implemented and ultimately how it affects the sport. I don't see K.E.R's or D.R.S as some major technological break through, in the same vein as A.B.S or power steering, four wheel drive ..... turbo engines etc. All of which can be seen on road cars today. Your are hardly likely to see K.E.R'S or D.R.S on a road car that's because these are not seen as technological advancements. They are what they are, temporary measures to circumvent the rules lay-ed down by the FIA. They are unnecessary and detract from what an individual can deliver in regards to his own raw talent.

As regards to Lewis I could not agree more, his personal life has nothing to do with any one and it is certainly not a reflection on anything he does on the track.



" Perfection is not a gift ....... it comes with practice."

Member of R.S.C.T Group



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2011 06:06PM by Isaint.
Re: 2011 Italian GP **SPOILERS** + Race Statistics
Date: September 13, 2011 06:42PM
Posted by: J i m
Those safety features introduced as you put it by the FIA came about by the GPDA and people such as Jackie Stewart rightly insisting upon improved safety, not by teams developing safer cars via technology. The 12 year gap without a fatality at a race weekend (deaths had happend in testing between, e.g De Angelis) had as much to do with sheer good luck as it did with any technological advancement in safety. The FIA have been far more strict on imposing safer technical regulations regarding both cars and tracks since Imola 1994 than before it and it took the loss of a legend who was almost perceived as invincible to do provoke it.

Since that fateful day circuits have been modified, and driver safety within the car has been increased more than more obsessively than any period from the beginning right upto and including the nineties. Before 1995 a drivers head and feet were in precarious position and very exposed in the event of a crash. These fundamental changes came after Imola 1994 not before. Think of icidents like Heidfeld colliding with Sato at Austria 02, Kubica's accident at Montreal in 08... Had these happened as recently as the early to mid nineties then they had very severe concenquences indeed, let alone had they occurred in the 50's to 70's or even before.

Hence my comment that it wasn't technology that drove safety forward in earnest until post Imola 1994. It was the original GPDA who had to fight tooth and nail against hostile organisers, promoters and in some cases their own teams! Simply to introduce such obvious features such as armcoe barriers (the run offs at Spa and Hockenheim literraly used to be the trees) or emergency medical crews and facilities at the circuits, it took nearly an hour for an ambulance to arrive for Stewart at spa in the 60's and it was left to Graham Hill and nuns would you believe to stay with him until professional medical help arrived and when it did it only went and got lost on the way to the hospital for crying out loud!

Technical advances in F1 before 1994 were predominantly aimed at making a car go faster, you only have to look at a car from any period unto to 1995 to realise that safety took the back seat to performance.

This role was only reversed from 1995, and thankfully the rate of increased safety is still increasing now.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2011 06:46PM by J i m.
Re: 2011 Italian GP **SPOILERS** + Race Statistics
Date: September 13, 2011 07:11PM
Posted by: Isaint
'Hence my comment that it wasn't technology that drove safety forward in earnest until post Imola 1994.'

I understand your point and knowing the history behind this I agree with you.
How-ever the K.E.R's and the D.R.S thing, still sticks in my throat I just can't see this as a natural part of racing .......



" Perfection is not a gift ....... it comes with practice."

Member of R.S.C.T Group
Re: 2011 Italian GP **SPOILERS** + Race Statistics
Date: September 13, 2011 07:35PM
Posted by: EC83
The 12 year gap without a fatality at a race weekend (deaths had happend in testing between, e.g De Angelis) had as much to do with sheer good luck as it did with any technological advancement in safety.

Exactly - Adelaide 1991 alone is proof of this, many drivers and marshalls were very lucky not to die that day, but because no tragedy actually happened the safety issue stayed brushed under the carpet.



Re: 2011 Italian GP **SPOILERS** + Race Statistics
Date: September 13, 2011 09:01PM
Posted by: Anonymous User
[en.espnf1.com]

I agree with him.
Re: 2011 Italian GP **SPOILERS** + Race Statistics
Date: September 13, 2011 09:48PM
Posted by: EC83
I don't see how he can be seen as anything other than having caused an avoidable accident. I agree with Gav's post.



Re: 2011 Italian GP **SPOILERS** + Race Statistics
Date: September 13, 2011 10:36PM
Posted by: gav
Going back to the safety aspect and the constant punishment, or debate of punishment for drivers, the problem isn't the stewards.

Of course they do make frequent decisions that some of us can only scream "WTF?!" at, but in my view the truth of the matter is this:

The stewards are forced to act because the drivers are once again getting complacent.

If it wasn't for the stewards and we went back to a 90's and earlier level of punishment (practically zero for all but extremely unsporting or dangerous driving) then it would be carnage.

We've got drivers racing so close it's unreal - they aren't all respecting each other regarding safety - they're beginning to think they're invincible.

The last time that happened we had 2 deaths and 14 injuries.

Damon Hill commented after Barrichello's accident at Imola "we all brushed ourselves off and carried on qualifying, reassured that our cars were tough as tanks and we could be shaken but not hurt".

The current generation aren't invincible - Massa showed just how vulnerable drivers are, and while it was a freak occurrence, so was Ratzenburger's front wing only falling off at the worst possible place, Senna being hit on the head by his own wheel, Graham Beveridge having a wheel coming through a tiny gap in the catch fencing, and Frentzen's wheel flying across the track at undiminished speed straight into the helpless Paolo Ghislimberti.

I don't like drivers being punished for hard racing, but if they didn't, we'd all have to go through the horror of Imola 1994 all over again. The way some are driving, we might anyway.
Re: 2011 Italian GP **SPOILERS** + Race Statistics
Date: September 13, 2011 11:58PM
Posted by: Anonymous User
Apologies for my last post - I confess I hadn't actually read much of the forum (not Gav or EC83s' posts anyway) since my previous post and as such it looks like I was trying to contradict other views - I wasn't :P

I agree though that some drivers seem to think they're invincible and recent manoeuvres like Webber on Alonso and also Vettel on Alonso seem to support this theory. While it's ACE to watch it probably is only a matter of time before we have someone flying inverted at 180MP towards a horrendous accident. Some would say that that is racing and others would call it reckless.

Actually the drivers who you would usually expect to be involved in more serious tangles (Kobayashi and Sutil spring to mind) they have actually been pretty well behaved. The hair-raising stuff is being seen at the front of the grid.
Re: 2011 Italian GP **SPOILERS** + Race Statistics
Date: September 14, 2011 02:01AM
Posted by: chet
With regards to Vettel on Alonso. Clearly he expected Alonso to give him more room. Alonso being the tough competitor he is didnt. It was obviously surprising to Vettel who after the race was obviously not best pleased about it no matter how hard he tried not to show it!

With Webber and Alonso. Webber basically gave Alonso no option to lift. It was either that or tangle. That kind of racing is perfectly fine because 9/10 the other driver knows when to back off. Webber had the momentum, and the right line.

In recent years the only dangerous one I remember was Hungary last year where Schumacher tried to scare Rubens into the wall. Poor driving from Schumacher/






"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
Re: 2011 Italian GP **SPOILERS** + Race Statistics
Date: September 14, 2011 06:54AM
Posted by: Morbid
gav Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Going back to the safety aspect and the constant
> punishment, or debate of punishment for drivers,
> the problem isn't the stewards.
>
> Of course they do make frequent decisions that
> some of us can only scream "WTF?!" at, but in my
> view the truth of the matter is this:
>
> The stewards are forced to act because the drivers
> are once again getting complacent.
>
> If it wasn't for the stewards and we went back to
> a 90's and earlier level of punishment
> (practically zero for all but extremely unsporting
> or dangerous driving) then it would be carnage.
>
> We've got drivers racing so close it's unreal -
> they aren't all respecting each other regarding
> safety - they're beginning to think they're
> invincible.
>
> The last time that happened we had 2 deaths and 14
> injuries.
>
> Damon Hill commented after Barrichello's accident
> at Imola "we all brushed ourselves off and carried
> on qualifying, reassured that our cars were tough
> as tanks and we could be shaken but not hurt".
>
> The current generation aren't invincible - Massa
> showed just how vulnerable drivers are, and while
> it was a freak occurrence, so was Ratzenburger's
> front wing only falling off at the worst possible
> place, Senna being hit on the head by his own
> wheel, Graham Beveridge having a wheel coming
> through a tiny gap in the catch fencing, and
> Frentzen's wheel flying across the track at
> undiminished speed straight into the helpless
> Paolo Ghislimberti.
>
> I don't like drivers being punished for hard
> racing, but if they didn't, we'd all have to go
> through the horror of Imola 1994 all over again.
> The way some are driving, we might anyway.

Thumbs up!



It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.
Re: 2011 Italian GP **SPOILERS** + Race Statistics
Date: September 14, 2011 08:11AM
Posted by: gav
Quote
chet
In recent years the only dangerous one I remember was Hungary last year where Schumacher tried to scare Rubens into the wall. Poor driving from Schumacher

I'm not just referring to dangerous moves, more the general complacency slipping in.

Take Alonso-Vettel for example. I like Alonso's never-say-die attitude, but I didn't like what he did there. But from Vettel's point of view, he could have backed out. It was at that point on the race-track 11 years ago that a marshal died from a needless coming together. If you're on the grass at 190mph, you'll be luck not to spin, and thankfully Alonso gave him space before the braking zone.

Liuzzi - with the smallest degree of sense, he would have backed out, settled behind the Lotus and probably finished the race. But he had a case of brain fade and ended up sideways at 130mph creaming into a bunch of cars effectively standing still from his perspective. That was so close to being a horrible accident, and it was all down to complacency and idiocy.

Webber's accident with Heikki in Valencia last year. If Webber was thinking, he wouldn't have been under the rear wing of a car 5 or 6 seconds a lap slower entering the hardest braking zone on the track. He got complacent and as a result most of the viewing world would have held their breath for the several seconds until we saw him move.

We all like hard racing, and Webber-Alonso at Spa is a cracking example of that - but drivers need to be aware that they're not driving hire karts.
Re: 2011 Italian GP **SPOILERS** + Race Statistics
Date: September 14, 2011 08:14AM
Posted by: Slash
Re: 2011 Italian GP **SPOILERS** + Race Statistics
Date: September 14, 2011 10:25AM
Posted by: J i m
That clip is disappointing because it doesn't show Schumacher's chop on Hamilton at Curve Grande, but it does show how greedy he was at the braking zones, it was definitely too complacent at times.

And what Gav says about this not being rental karts is absolutely spot on, you get all kinds of incompetent stupidity in karts which could cause a nasty enough accident in that arena... That kind of behaviour in actual racing cars is insane and almost suicidal behaviour.

We all like hard and tough side by side racing, but you can have that without forcing one car off the road at or before braking zones.

Re: 2011 Italian GP **SPOILERS** + Race Statistics
Date: September 14, 2011 11:03AM
Posted by: LeeBeau
J i m Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That clip is disappointing because it doesn't show
> Schumacher's chop on Hamilton at Curve Grande

wut, so you think it was a brilliant idea for Hamilton to go ahead and try to get by there from the inside, you think that was a maneuver that was bound to work if it weren't for that meddling Schumacher?

Honestly if you see something 'illegal' or 'iffy' in that clip then not only will your dad be very disappointed with you but so will all your racing heroes. Mclaren really did an awful job with the setup, shame on them.
Re: 2011 Italian GP **SPOILERS** + Race Statistics
Date: September 14, 2011 11:22AM
Posted by: marcl
All I can say is if it had been Lewis doing what MS was doing there would be hardly any defending him on here, enough said.

The fact that a race steward has said he would have done something about it had he been asked his view says it all, Charlie has now said race stewards can raise things they want to be looked at without being asked 1st.

And btw cars can pass at Curve Grande and Lesmos its been done many times in the past, MS had a bad few corners and Lewis had a run on him. He probably would not have been able to pass there as he was not close enough so there was no real need to force someone to back off like that, but we do have to remember MS is old school so it is probably hard for him in this new lets be nice times.

I think had this race been on the back of good results for Lewis he would have gone for a gap and left it up to MS to crash or not there were a few occations when he could have gone in locked up. Mclaren also got the pit stop timing wrong which did not help.

JB got lucky in the race anyway, would he have finished 2nd had Massa and Webber not had their crash? Probably not so its not really the great drive everyone is making it out to be. And Lewis passed MS at the same place as JB did is that move being praised?

Yes you make your own luck and I dont think Lewis had a great race anyway, very toned down. But the Lewis of a few races ago would not have backed off at the start with Alonso and Vettel and maybe he should not have this time.

I really enjoyed the Lewis MS battle anyway its how F1 should be (when it was correct which it was for the most part) rather than hit the DRS button and drive past. But when a driver has to move 3 times to keep another driver behind they may as well just let them past to not lose time themselves. The whole thing was like the Senna Mansell battle in 1991 where Mansell kept trying to pass Senna and could not and the Patrese got past at that same corner in a matter of laps.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2011 12:10PM by marcl.
Re: 2011 Italian GP **SPOILERS** + Race Statistics
Date: September 14, 2011 12:12PM
Posted by: andreigp4
I just noticed something... The drivers in the first 5 places were all champions. I guess that's a world premiere for F1.

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